845 replies to this topic

[Slambot]

I've been saying this for a very long time. That is, if you really want balance in this game, there needs to be a reason on a system by system basis, ie. not just weapons, why if you were able to build a mech using IS and Clan tech that a reasonable player might select the IS system over the clan system.

Example:

Clan gauss: lighter, and smaller than IS weapon. All other stats identical. The IS version needs either, faster recycle, no charge mechanic, or some other system that makes it better in ONE (mebbe two) respects than the clan system.

This kind of thinking needs to be applied to EVERY system, weapon and non weapon in the game. After all, the aforementioned 94 alpha clan mech isn't just viable because clan lasers do more damage for less tonnage at a greater range than their IS counterparts. It ALSO because clan heat sinks are 50% smaller than IS heat sinks and you can effectively mount 25 ish heat sinks on that 94 alpha mech AND that clan endo is 7 spaces rather than the IS 14 AND also that clan xl engines take up 17% less space than IS XL or are 33% lighter than IS light engines etc. etc.

In short, every clan system is inherently better than its IS counterpart. So, apply a system whereby a reasonable player would take an IS system over the clan variant in every case, make the system homogeneous, so that the IS system advantages work together in some way, get rid of quirks and viola!

[Ph03n1x1985]

what point is it too keep nerfing clan while is mechs stay tanky as ****?

do u guys of pgi even consider what ure so called balancing does to faction play ever?

yeah, the damage output of clan mechs is higher then their IS counterpart, but, and thats a VERY BIG BUT, u need that alpha, especially in faction play to keep up to the armor and structure quirks of is mech u gyus implemented! otherwise u just get steamrolled by the IS.
and instead of working on real problems like hit registration, connecting issues or invisible on every damn map in this game, ure only wasting time to nerf something, that dont need to be nerfed.
i play this game for 6 years now and i always loved this game, but u guys keep making it harder and harder to keep the love up and i have to admit, that even my patience is running low.

and yeah i realize that no one of u is most likely to read this post, but for the case u will, pls just listen once to the community and stop nerfing clans into the ground only because ure quickplay stats tells u so. maybe start playing the game and check out the problems for yourself would make u understand.
so for all that its worth please consider this.

with best regards

[Reno Blade]

Ph03n1x1985, on 07 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

what point is it too keep nerfing clan while is mechs stay tanky as ****?

do u guys of pgi even consider what ure so called balancing does to faction play ever?

yeah, the damage output of clan mechs is higher then their IS counterpart, but, and thats a VERY BIG BUT, u need that alpha, especially in faction play to keep up to the armor and structure quirks of is mech u gyus implemented! otherwise u just get steamrolled by the IS.
and instead of working on real problems like hit registration, connecting issues or invisible on every damn map in this game, ure only wasting time to nerf something, that dont need to be nerfed.
i play this game for 6 years now and i always loved this game, but u guys keep making it harder and harder to keep the love up and i have to admit, that even my patience is running low.

and yeah i realize that no one of u is most likely to read this post, but for the case u will, pls just listen once to the community and stop nerfing clans into the ground only because ure quickplay stats tells u so. maybe start playing the game and check out the problems for yourself would make u understand.
so for all that its worth please consider this.

with best regards

It's a two-way balance actually.
More DMG <=> More tank quirks
The IS mechs got tank quirks because the Clans have higher dmg per shot (and higher dmg / ton).

They stated that the quirks will be readjusted when the lowering the damage is considered (depending on the outcome of the PTS testing sessions to come and the final approach).

[Ph03n1x1985]

Reno Blade, on 07 July 2018 - 03:24 AM, said:

It's a two-way balance actually.
More DMG <=> More tank quirks
The IS mechs got tank quirks because the Clans have higher dmg per shot (and higher dmg / ton).

They stated that the quirks will be readjusted when the lowering the damage is considered (depending on the outcome of the PTS testing sessions to come and the final approach).

what im saying is, that there is no need to keep on nerfing, just let it be how it is right now and most people can live with that.

[BTGbullseye]

Reno Blade, on 07 July 2018 - 03:24 AM, said:

They stated that the quirks will be readjusted when the lowering the damage is considered (depending on the outcome of the PTS testing sessions to come and the final approach).

Or so they say... Then again, they very vocally stated they wouldn't be changing those quirks at the same time as the weapon changes take place. If that is the case, they are just begging to kill off half the playerbase of the game. (the half that use and enjoy Clan mechs)

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 03 July 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

So i just read the linking of large lasers to gauss. Lol, **** no. ****'s messed up, it's already linked to PPCs.

The point of gauss, as stressed by PGI and co, is that it's a low heat weapon. Of course it's going to be abused like that. Unless of course C Gauss is made hotter.

Just reduce clan laser damage and be done with it. Or better yet, put heat on Gauss, it should be just doing increased damage/heat, as opposed of practically heatless.

Luckily, linking large lasers to Gauss doesn't do sh*t because large lasers have a burn longer than 0.5 seconds and because the recoil effect forces you to fire the Gauss after the burn is complete anyway...which is more or less how they are already used in the game.

It's a stupid idea on principle and mechanical merit.

[DrMike]

1) Take original TT weapons values (damage, heat) for energy weapons (all lasers, all kind of ppcs and gauss rifles)
2) Link available energy damage per alpha to engine value divided by 10 (engine 300 ----> 30 alpha, 400 ----> 40 alpha)
3) Heat cap for all mechs = 30
4) Remove ghost heat but increase ballistic heat +1
5) Link reload time of ballistic weapons and rockets to storage location (e.g. weapon in left arm + ammo there = normal reload time, weapon in left arm + ammo in left side torso = normal time + 1s...)

[Tesunie]

BTGbullseye, on 07 July 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

Or so they say... Then again, they very vocally stated they wouldn't be changing those quirks at the same time as the weapon changes take place. If that is the case, they are just begging to kill off half the playerbase of the game. (the half that use and enjoy Clan mechs)

They aren't changing the quirks at the same time as the weapons in the PTS. When it goes live they have said they might change the health quirks as well as the weapons (if they even do that).

DrMike, on 07 July 2018 - 12:07 PM, said:

2) Link available energy damage per alpha to engine value divided by 10 (engine 300 ----> 30 alpha, 400 ----> 40 alpha)


5) Link reload time of ballistic weapons and rockets to storage location (e.g. weapon in left arm + ammo there = normal reload time, weapon in left arm + ammo in left side torso = normal time + 1s...)

Step two would provide a double advantage for engine size again, which would force an engine race again.

Step five would be difficult to do, and is rather complicated. I think it wouldn't be necessary and just overly and needlessly complex.

[Tarl Cabot]

Ph03n1x1985, on 07 July 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

what point is it too keep nerfing clan while is mechs stay tanky as ****?

snip

Not all IS mechs are "tanky" or equipped with Armor/Structural quirks, and several Clan mechs also have Armor/Internal quirks now. Noted by PGI, majority of those quirks were due to hitboxes. Also, when Clans were released, majority of their mechs are chicken walkers vs IS majority humanoid mechs. Remember, damage hitting a destroyed section has the incoming damage reduced. So the an IS mech firing weapons that did less damage had its damage reduced when hitting a destroyed Clan side torso, even more if it hit were the arm area > ST > CT. And when Clans did go live, there were NO heat/movement penalties with the loss of one side torso while isXL mechs keeps dying that way, or use a STD which reduced their speed and the available tonnage for weapons and other components.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 July 2018 - 05:47 PM.

[Jonathan8883]

Challenge for Paul or Chris: Spend an entire day playing nothing but Spider 5V, 5D, etc. builds. You get 2-3 IS lasers and nothing else.

[AcidBuu]

VERRY UPSETTING

YOU ARE FORGETTING THE REDUCE ALL THE LASERS DURATIONS! except for heavy medium laser !!!
There is no good reason why IS schould have more dmg/s laserduration
you also not reducing the heat propperly and managed to increase the dmg/heat on almost all of the clan lasers.

The Clan ER med laser has a dmg/heat effeciency below 1
It is no secret that clan lasers are hot but you are only making them hotter.

U are not adressing the clan high alfa laser vomit, you are blantently nerfing clan lasers.

[NeonKnight]

I know this isn;t covered here, but I'll say again (and bring the hate, I don;t care, it simply must be said)

STOP PENALIZING LRMS (both Clan AND IS). Again, before people start yelling I HATE LRMS, and USELESS, think of their effectiveness. They can in good players hands pin down an enemy so the rest of the time can get into position. You know, like in the Movies where one soldier/cop/etc says their teammates: LAY DOWN SOME COVER FIRE, so they fire away keeping the enemy down while the rest of the squad moves up. That is what good LRM fire can and SHOULD DO!

But, often they can't because:

Of all the weapon types out there, this is the only weapon group that has multiple counters:

• COVER can completely eliminate
  
• ECM can eliminate or make locking twice as long
  
• ONLY weapon with a significant 'Travel Time'
  
• Only Weapon that can be 'Dodged' after it has fired
  
• Only weapon with a 'Stacking' weapon Counter: AMS
  
• Only weapon with a SKILL to Counter: Radar Deprivation

Let's cover the above:

1. COVER: This I have no problem with, not really any different than any other weapon really. I wouldn;t fire a PPC at a mech behind a building/hill, so a good player with LRM's should not really do so either. This is fine.

2. ECM: ECM hurts anyone with LRM's who does not have either for themselves, or someone on their team, TAG or BAP. ECM does not stop anyone with Ballistics or Energy weapons hitting a target they can see, but the missile support...no help. No Problems here by and of itself.

3 & 4. TRAVEL TIME/Dodging: All other attack are pretty much instantaneous. Even the somewhat slow firing ACs cannot really be dodged, but if you see LRM's Coming in, a good player can dodge behind a building to avoid being hit. I don;t have a problem with.

5. AMS: Because there is not Reflective Armor in the Game, nor is there any Reactive Hardened Armor. For those that do not know, Reflective reduces/eliminates Energy Attacks, Hardened Reduces Ballistic/Missile attacks. So, only weapon that can be completed eliminated is Missiles. This works in high enough concentration 100% or LRMs (do to the long travel time), but has a lower effect on SRMs do the much closer range often fired at.

6. Radar Deprivation: The biggie, RADAR DEP. Missiles (and really only LRMS are penalized here) are the only weapon group that has a Skill Tree that can pretty much eliminate their effectiveness. Image the Uproar, if we introduced a Skill Tree skill grouping called ELECTRIC WEAVE or something that had 5 Levels, with each level giving a 20% Elimination to PPC damage. Heck, I'd take that in a heart beat, but a large amount of the community would be enraged (and rightly so). Well, that is Radar Deprivation.

Now, I am not saying put LRMs back to where they were before. Nor am I asking for anything to be eliminated. Heck, I'm even FINE with RADAR DEP being in as it is, but right now, trying to fire LRMs' requires:

• BEING IN RANGE
  
• GETTING A LOCK
  
• FIRING
  
• KEEPING THE LOCK FOR ENTIRE FLIGHT TIME

Step 4 is the issue here. I'm Fine with the Being In Range (no different than any other weapon Group), and Step 2, Again, everything OK here. ECM makes a little Longer...OK, Opponent has RADAR DEP and I keep Loosing the Lock - Find another target then.

Its' step 4 that is the kick in the teeth. A player has already spent maybe 10 seconds or so, just getting the lock, to then fire and have the lock go away and the shot be wasted.

All I am asking for here is...Don't penalise the shot I just made. I'm fine with everything else, but don't make the shot I spent time trying to lock down be taken away immediately after I make it. AMS and Dodging into Cover..Fine! No Problem, but losing a Lock after I made it to watch my missiles streak into oblivion...No other weapon has that penalty and frankly neither should my salvo.

[Shaggath]

NeonKnight, on 08 July 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

I know this isn;t covered here, but I'll say again (and bring the hate, I don;t care, it simply must be said)

STOP PENALIZING LRMS (both Clan AND IS). Again, before people start yelling I HATE LRMS, and USELESS, think of their effectiveness. They can in good players hands pin down an enemy so the rest of the time can get into position. You know, like in the Movies where one soldier/cop/etc says their teammates: LAY DOWN SOME COVER FIRE, so they fire away keeping the enemy down while the rest of the squad moves up. That is what good LRM fire can and SHOULD DO!

But, often they can't because:

Of all the weapon types out there, this is the only weapon group that has multiple counters:

• COVER can completely eliminate
  
• ECM can eliminate or make locking twice as long
  
• ONLY weapon with a significant 'Travel Time'
  
• Only Weapon that can be 'Dodged' after it has fired
  
• Only weapon with a 'Stacking' weapon Counter: AMS
  
• Only weapon with a SKILL to Counter: Radar Deprivation

Let's cover the above:




1. COVER: This I have no problem with, not really any different than any other weapon really. I wouldn;t fire a PPC at a mech behind a building/hill, so a good player with LRM's should not really do so either. This is fine.

2. ECM: ECM hurts anyone with LRM's who does not have either for themselves, or someone on their team, TAG or BAP. ECM does not stop anyone with Ballistics or Energy weapons hitting a target they can see, but the missile support...no help. No Problems here by and of itself.

3 & 4. TRAVEL TIME/Dodging: All other attack are pretty much instantaneous. Even the somewhat slow firing ACs cannot really be dodged, but if you see LRM's Coming in, a good player can dodge behind a building to avoid being hit. I don;t have a problem with.

5. AMS: Because there is not Reflective Armor in the Game, nor is there any Reactive Hardened Armor. For those that do not know, Reflective reduces/eliminates Energy Attacks, Hardened Reduces Ballistic/Missile attacks. So, only weapon that can be completed eliminated is Missiles. This works in high enough concentration 100% or LRMs (do to the long travel time), but has a lower effect on SRMs do the much closer range often fired at.

6. Radar Deprivation: The biggie, RADAR DEP. Missiles (and really only LRMS are penalized here) are the only weapon group that has a Skill Tree that can pretty much eliminate their effectiveness. Image the Uproar, if we introduced a Skill Tree skill grouping called ELECTRIC WEAVE or something that had 5 Levels, with each level giving a 20% Elimination to PPC damage. Heck, I'd take that in a heart beat, but a large amount of the community would be enraged (and rightly so). Well, that is Radar Deprivation.

Now, I am not saying put LRMs back to where they were before. Nor am I asking for anything to be eliminated. Heck, I'm even FINE with RADAR DEP being in as it is, but right now, trying to fire LRMs' requires:

• BEING IN RANGE
  
• GETTING A LOCK
  
• FIRING
  
• KEEPING THE LOCK FOR ENTIRE FLIGHT TIME

Step 4 is the issue here. I'm Fine with the Being In Range (no different than any other weapon Group), and Step 2, Again, everything OK here. ECM makes a little Longer...OK, Opponent has RADAR DEP and I keep Loosing the Lock - Find another target then.




Its' step 4 that is the kick in the teeth. A player has already spent maybe 10 seconds or so, just getting the lock, to then fire and have the lock go away and the shot be wasted.

All I am asking for here is...Don't penalise the shot I just made. I'm fine with everything else, but don't make the shot I spent time trying to lock down be taken away immediately after I make it. AMS and Dodging into Cover..Fine! No Problem, but losing a Lock after I made it to watch my missiles streak into oblivion...No other weapon has that penalty and frankly neither should my salvo.

Or play heroes clicker for the same intense gameplay.

Edited by Shaggath, 09 July 2018 - 04:16 AM.

[Tesunie]

NeonKnight, on 08 July 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

STOP PENALIZING LRMS

As much as I like LRMs: Wrong place. Wrong time. Wrong thread.

Also, LRMs can be used well. Part of the skill is to make sure you are able to hold a lock for the entire flight duration. If you are having problems with that, try getting closer and getting your own locks. Also, try to remember how long your missiles take to get to specific ranges.

PS: Also:
Only weapon that can shoot indirectly without seeing the enemy.
Only one of three weapons that home in on a target.
Only weapon with a SKILL to improve it, Target Retention. (Though Radar Deprivation overpowers it...)
NOT the only weapon that can be dodged after being shot. (Lasers can be spread around, or some of it dodged. ACs can sometimes as well. Etc.)

It pays some of it's strengths with weaknesses elsewhere. That's the trade off for the weapon's utility. Don't list only it's weaknesses without mentioning any of it's strengths... The two tend to go hand in hand.

[ShooterMcGavin80]

I'm getting real tired of having to rebuild all my mechs every six to 12 months when 'balance' changes occur.

Gauss PPC was right to nerf. That was a good decision for the game.

The clan small pulse lasers were OP. Nerfing those was a good decision for the game. I feel like both for IS and Clan they might have been nerfed a little toooo hard, if balancing I would be tempted to bump them up about 5% somehow, but I digress..

Ditto for LMG's. I feel like they got nerfed a little too hard regarding spread. They're basically worthless now.

I think IS mechs have however slowly gotten turned into tanky overquirked bricks. Aren't Clan mechs supposed to be better? Why are we even bothering to 'balance' weapon systems? Can't we manage it with tonnage, or for strict Clan vs IS battles, we could to 16 versus 10, or 8 vs 5? Or manage it with tonnage?

In my opinion the only weapon systems that need to be messed with are the ones you rarely see on the battlefield:

Streaks, both IS and Clan: maybe buff these somehow to make them more generally usable. It would be good to have a dumbfire option, maybe with a similar wide spread as MRM's.
IS Small lasers: sure, you could buff these little things (but just a little).
RAC2's: good work, you buffed them and they seem more viable now.
Clan Standard Autocannons: You barely ever see these. Maybe reduce he number of shells per shot or make the burst time faster.
Heavy machine guns: rarely see these. Just too short ranged. Not sure how to make them more interesting.
Light Gauss Rifle: still a bit meh. Not sure how to make it better, but could use a little buff. Not sure if you want to reduce the cooldown or increase the damage though. Maybe reduce its tonnage by one ton.
Light PPC's. Also a bit meh. Also not sure how to make it more attractive. Maybe a very small damage buff.
Heavy PPC's I don't see much of, probably mostly because the heavy Gauss is so attractive.

[JinChilla]

0111101, on 11 June 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

I take it you won't be considering anything in the Community Panel's Weapon Balance document then?

https://docs.google....2xIIfVKM4o/edit

Is there any math behind this ?
sorry for off topic

[Y E O N N E]

JinChilla, on 09 July 2018 - 10:31 PM, said:

Is there any math behind this ?
sorry for off topic

There is, but most of it is either in the Reddit thread where it was first discussed or locked behind Tarogato's spreadsheets.

[Imperius]

I’m going with “Option C.” Accept that the balance team doesn’t understand what fun and playstyle variety is. Accept it’s their game and they are the only ones who have the right to make changes.

In short stop playing MWO and move on because over time it has just gotten worse with each “micro” nerf.

Edited by Imperius, 12 July 2018 - 08:29 AM.

[Shaggath]

Seriously stop thinking faction but gameplay.

Actual meta is the worst on this game.

Before clan the meta was really more intresting more based on substain and share damage.
With more room for light and medium.
Before clan the alpha can reach max 60 on assault.
Average alpha was more around 30 :

With ballistic you can put this pinpoint but you can miss.
With laser you can put this with a clean shoot, most of time the damage was spread but you can't miss all.

Now c laser loadout can put more damage or similar if the target try to spread the damage.
A simple medium can put 60 alpha ....

This is totally stupid.

Now they put quirk on IS too balance the faction but at the end only few model work because you need the good quirk and the good hardpoint.
And it's hard to sale new IS model because before the release with only spec you already know if it's worth it.

The faction play is wobbly
And the meta tottaly soporific, wait the error around a covert launch alpha reach 50 % heat wait dissipation repeat.
I play battlegib and i don't recommend the game for new player.

Edited by Shaggath, 12 July 2018 - 10:01 AM.

[Disinterest]

@Paul
TL:DR Lore and intransitive system balance do not mix; Your compromise needs to go back to the basics

First, and foremost, the opinions of new players, veteran players, and min-maxers be damned. The Inner Sphere was effectively conquered because clan tech was better, and the only thing that saved it were background lore interactions: treason, politics, and mercy. People who play inner-sphere are playing the under-dog, and crying about being the under-dog makes about as much sense as forcing IS Mercs and freelancers to play IS mechs in the faction war, when what I did in MW2 Mercs was risk mission success to get a cockpit shot on the clan mechs I wanted to salvage so that I could "WIN".

Gauss rifles: If you're so ready to pounce on the tonnage issue, then change the tonnage, NOT anything else.

Lasers: You made your bed, and are simply having to lay in it; Your REAL problem comes from the extra balance features you threw into the game: The hard points, omnipods, flat number bonuses (quirks, skills), and the overall restriction of what is canonically more of a choice than a min-max per patch fest. Instead of classic Mechwarrior 2 build issues (slots, tonnage, heat), being at the head of everyone's "too good to be true" build, you invited this nonsense of packing many small weapons on mechs; you released a 20 ton mech with more hardpoints than assault mechs, with hardpoints defining how much damage you can pack onto them. Your current laser offenders today will be your "x" offenders tomorrow, you are maintaining a cycle, and I'm not sure you aren't doing it on purpose.

You can claim your intentions were to "balance" or uniquely define a chassis, but let's be real: Twitch streamers and min-maxers are free advertisement and keep a game going, and the debate on the gap between IS vs Clan tech strength keeps people as enthralled as U.S. politics, while you charge folks for convenience. Honestly, you've got more problems with your game than huge alpha strikes; 40 some dollars worth of MC buys two mechs, and is enough to turn off the majority of people I demo this game to, but if you're so dead set on leveling the playing field, then do so. By saying that, I mean remove this "progress" you've made, let go, and let MWO be MechWarrior Online. If you're set on IS vs Clan balance, then shear the numbers so they're closer in DPS and DPH, and let that be the hit to the lore, not this restricted build garbage that you claim promotes the uniqueness of variants. If someone wants to stick a huge gun on the fastest mech with no armor, LET THE FREEBIRTH TRY, if people stack heavies because more tons means more boom, that's why you have tonnage LIMITS.

You want to "balance" this intransitive system? Prove it, by bringing back some of it's inherent transitive nature... and stop doing dumb stuff: C-light mg > C-heavy mg because C-light has an effective range of 250.

Best of luck
- The guy who quit shortly after launch because there was no feature to have jump jet strafing, or spinning.

Edited by EnzoNETMECH, 13 July 2018 - 06:36 AM.