864 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

As someone who does not like half-measures, either we keep solos and groups separate, or we just have one queue like in the beginning. <shrugs>

There is just one exception: allow solos into the group queue.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 23 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

Can't get high MS in group queue, not enough time to carry if your team is strong and rolls the other team.

Its actually pretty damn easy. You go in as a group, you don't die, you get some kills, you do this for thousands of games, and bam super kdr.

Look at the top 40 of Jarl's list. Lots of games, high kdr due to high kills to deaths. They don't die much because BIG ORGANIZED GROUPS against nobodies in small groups with NO BALANCING.

This is easier than in solo queue, as you'd be more likely to face other top tier players.
While as a group, if you have a 12 man, all you're really gonna face is a shitload of random players in small groups of 2 to 6, and if you're really unlucky you might face an actual group of 8 to 12 players. Maybe. But unlikely and if you do just stop playing until they go away and go back to farming for stats later.

Meanwhile when we had 2-4 player premades in solo queue, the game did balance it. PGI went into great detail about it. The group(s) (no more than 4 players in total could be in groups, whether 2 and 2, 3, or 4)'s ELO is given an average and then compared to other groups in the bucket. From there, the remaining players are then selected from the bucket in an attempt to maintain a given average, with higher or lower players picked in order to modify the average of a side as necessary to produce an approximately even match (given the nature of ELO however, it may be inclined to eschew it slightly).

If you lacked what you needed, say they have a 4 player or 2 sets of 2 player groups and you only have a three player group and no other similar 3 player groups are available, it then pulls a high end player (if necessary) to help mitigate the difference (otherwise it may pull a lower or similar player if the other group is considered pathetic).

So applied with tiers instead, if you had a team of four tier 1s, they'd be fighting a team of four tier 1s, or the game would litter the opposing side with pugging tier 1s to make up for the difference.

[Spheroid]

Please consider that it is highly probable that QP will be going to 8v8 where the effect of a two man will be greater than that of 12v12.

Should we even consider this change to QP before the larger group size issue is resolved?

Edited by Spheroid, 23 June 2018 - 09:17 AM.

[dario03]

Koniving, on 23 June 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

Its actually pretty damn easy. You go in as a group, you don't die, you get some kills, you do this for thousands of games, and bam super kdr.

Look at the top 40 of Jarl's list. Lots of games, high kdr due to high kills to deaths. They don't die much because BIG ORGANIZED GROUPS against nobodies in small groups with NO BALANCING.

This is easier than in solo queue, as you'd be more likely to face other top tier players.
While as a group, if you have a 12 man, all you're really gonna face is a shitload of random players in small groups of 2 to 6, and if you're really unlucky you might face an actual group of 8 to 12 players. Maybe. But unlikely and if you do just stop playing until they go away and go back to farming for stats later.

Meanwhile when we had 2-4 player premades in solo queue, the game did balance it. PGI went into great detail about it. The group(s) (no more than 4 players in total could be in groups, whether 2 and 2, 3, or 4)'s ELO is given an average and then compared to other groups in the bucket. From there, the remaining players are then selected from the bucket in an attempt to maintain a given average, with higher or lower players picked in order to modify the average of a side as necessary to produce an approximately even match (given the nature of ELO however, it may be inclined to eschew it slightly).

If you lacked what you needed, say they have a 4 player or 2 sets of 2 player groups and you only have a three player group and no other similar 3 player groups are available, it then pulls a high end player (if necessary) to help mitigate the difference (otherwise it may pull a lower or similar player if the other group is considered pathetic).

So applied with tiers instead, if you had a team of four tier 1s, they'd be fighting a team of four tier 1s, or the game would litter the opposing side with pugging tier 1s to make up for the difference.

4-6man group also works good for getting high MS if you take a high dps assault or heavy. In a good group of that size in a Mad Cat MKii you can still do close to as much damage as you would in a solo carry game but you will win more and die less than in a random solo game.
Smaller mechs on average seem to have a tougher time getting the big numbers in those groups though. You can, but its not as often.

[Tatula]

Yay! 26 pages! Let's put it to a vote! If not, maybe PGI (Tina?) will notice and address this request.

[kuma8877]

Spheroid, on 23 June 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

Please consider that it is highly probable that QP will be going to 8v8 where the effect of a two man will be greater than that of 12v12.

Should we even consider this change to QP before the larger group size issue is resolved?

What do you mean "highly probable"? The vote actually has the "keep 12v12" ahead by a smidge.

[Edward Scissorhands]

This is a bad idea

[Nightbird]

Koniving, on 23 June 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

Its actually pretty damn easy. You go in as a group, you don't die, you get some kills, you do this for thousands of games, and bam super kdr.

Look at the top 40 of Jarl's list. Lots of games, high kdr due to high kills to deaths. They don't die much because BIG ORGANIZED GROUPS against nobodies in small groups with NO BALANCING.

This is easier than in solo queue, as you'd be more likely to face other top tier players.
While as a group, if you have a 12 man, all you're really gonna face is a shitload of random players in small groups of 2 to 6, and if you're really unlucky you might face an actual group of 8 to 12 players. Maybe. But unlikely and if you do just stop playing until they go away and go back to farming for stats later.

Meanwhile when we had 2-4 player premades in solo queue, the game did balance it. PGI went into great detail about it. The group(s) (no more than 4 players in total could be in groups, whether 2 and 2, 3, or 4)'s ELO is given an average and then compared to other groups in the bucket. From there, the remaining players are then selected from the bucket in an attempt to maintain a given average, with higher or lower players picked in order to modify the average of a side as necessary to produce an approximately even match (given the nature of ELO however, it may be inclined to eschew it slightly).

If you lacked what you needed, say they have a 4 player or 2 sets of 2 player groups and you only have a three player group and no other similar 3 player groups are available, it then pulls a high end player (if necessary) to help mitigate the difference (otherwise it may pull a lower or similar player if the other group is considered pathetic).

So applied with tiers instead, if you had a team of four tier 1s, they'd be fighting a team of four tier 1s, or the game would litter the opposing side with pugging tier 1s to make up for the difference.

Having more than 2 people in a group makes getting 500 MS almost impossible. You need 800 damage and around 3 kills on AVERAGE. Even with 3 people those stats become mathematically impossible.

[S O L A I S]

Koniving, on 23 June 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

Its actually pretty damn easy. You go in as a group, you don't die, you get some kills, you do this for thousands of games, and bam super kdr.

Look at the top 40 of Jarl's list. Lots of games, high kdr due to high kills to deaths. They don't die much because BIG ORGANIZED GROUPS against nobodies in small groups with NO BALANCING.

Great theory and all but looking at the top 25 guys I know and play CW with 5 of them regularly and know that when they do quick play they for the vast majority of the time drop solo.

[Khobai]

S O L A I S, on 23 June 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Great theory and all but looking at the top 25 guys I know and play CW with 5 of them regularly and know that when they do quick play they for the vast majority of the time drop solo.

not saying everyone with good stats does it, but there are definitely people abusing group queue to pad their stats

if stats were separate for solo and group queue that abuse would be made immediately obvious


PGI should just do what khobai wants:

1) separate out the stats for solo and group queue to prove once and for all that stat padding is going on in GQ
2) allow 2 mans in solo queue, with the conditions that each team can only have a max of one 2 man, and if one team has a 2 man the other team will also have a 2 man.
3) make groups of 2, 10, and 11 impossible in group queue (only groups of 3-9 and 12 should be allowed)
4) dinosaurs


we expose the stat padders, make the game way less toxic for people that just wanna play with one friend, and dinosaurs!!! its win, win, win.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2018 - 12:39 PM.

[S O L A I S]

Khobai, on 23 June 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

not saying everyone with good stats does it, but there are definitely people abusing group queue to pad their stats

if stats were separate for solo and group queue that abuse would be made immediately obvious


PGI should just do what khobai wants:

1) separate out the stats for solo and group queue to prove once and for all that stat padding is going on in GQ
2) allow 2 mans in solo queue, with the conditions that each team can only have a max of one 2 man, and if one team has a 2 man the other team will also have a 2 man.
3) make groups of 2, 10, and 11 impossible in group queue (only groups of 3-9 and 12 should be allowed)
4) dinosaurs


we expose the stat padders, make the game way less toxic for people that just wanna play with one friend, and dinosaurs!!! its win, win, win.

1. Yes there are some. Is a team game though and playing as a team OP.
2. No. Matchmaker already has issues with tiers and weight classes, etc. That is outside of the problems letting two people group against solos.
3. No again unnecessary restriction and strain on MM.
4. Yeah...that's silly even for you.

Aloha, on 23 June 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Yay! 26 pages! Let's put it to a vote! If not, maybe PGI (Tina?) will notice and address this request.

But it's 26 pages trying to get a few people to understand why it is no.

[MischiefSC]

"Stat padders".

How do you pad stats? Win a lot? I.... help me understand. How is winning a lot padding stats? Where is the cheating or exploiting going on?

[Tatula]

S O L A I S, on 23 June 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

But it's 26 pages trying to get a few people to understand why it is no.

That statement is untrue. It's 26 pages of discussion, not all one-sided. That's why there should be a vote. Then we'll know for sure what the concensus are.

[Khobai]

S O L A I S, on 23 June 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

1. Yes there are some. Is a team game though and playing as a team OP.
2. No. Matchmaker already has issues with tiers and weight classes, etc. That is outside of the problems letting two people group against solos.
3. No again unnecessary restriction and strain on MM.
4. Yeah...that's silly even for you.

what the hell are you talking about? Playing as a team should not be OP just because one side got a big group of 6-8 and the other side got a bunch of smaller groups of 2-4. MM should be putting similar sized groups on both teams to balance things out. Which it currently fails miserably to do.

2 mans in solo queue would be absolutely fine if you followed my restrictions (max one group per team, and if one team gets a group the other team also gets a group)

yes group queue will have longer queue times without 2 mans. but 2 mans would also be freed of the toxicity of group queue. well worth the tradeoff. I suppose you could also allow 2 mans to choose solo or group queue and if they chose group queue it would be at their own peril.

of course adding dinosaurs is silly. thats the whole point. but it would attract tons of new players to the game, a game which has lost half its player base in the last 18 months... this game is going to continue to die slowly if it doesnt do something to get new players. dwindling player populations combined with too many buckets is just going to exacerbate the existing problems.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2018 - 01:03 PM.

[Tatula]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

"Stat padders".

How do you pad stats? Win a lot? I.... help me understand. How is winning a lot padding stats? Where is the cheating or exploiting going on?

And really, who care so much about their stats to need to pad it? I don't screen cap my stats to show to my friends. Do you?

[dario03]

Khobai, on 23 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

what the hell are you talking about? Playing as a team should not be OP because one side got a big group of 6+ and the other side got a bunch of smaller groups of 2-4. MM should be putting similar sized groups on both teams to balance things out. Which it currently it fails to do.

2 mans in solo queue would be absolutely fine if you followed my restrictions (max one group per team, and if one team gets a group the other team also gets a group)

yes group queue will have longer queue times without 2 mans. but 2 mans would also be freed of the toxicity of group queue. well worth the tradeoff.

of course adding dinosaurs is silly. thats the whole point. but it would attract tons of new players to the game, a game which has lost half its player base in the last 18 months...

Dinosaur consumable? Red smoke followed by a swarm of raptors, or a T-Rex out of no where, or a bunch of pterodactyls carry off an enemy?

[LT. HARDCASE]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

"Stat padders".

How do you pad stats? Win a lot? I.... help me understand. How is winning a lot padding stats? Where is the cheating or exploiting going on?

Most of the people claiming GQ is easy stat padding in fact get their **** pushed in when they venture into GQ, completely invalidating their claim with their own experiences.

[Khobai]

LT. HARDCASE, on 23 June 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

Most of the people claiming GQ is easy stat padding in fact get their **** pushed in when they venture into GQ, completely invalidating their claim with their own experiences.

So lets separate out solo stats from group stats and see whats what. Well be able to see then if people perform drastically better in group queue than solo queue.

Having stats visible is entirely pointless if they arnt transparent.

Because I guarantee you people are doing better in groups than solo, because its very easy to take advantage of group queues entirely non-existent matchmaker. You can basically stack matches by putting 6-8 really good players on one team while the other team gets a bunch of random 2-3 mans of dubious skill level. At the very least group queue should put similar sized groups on both teams. But it doesnt even do that. It just takes whatever groups it can get and makes sure they both add upto 12, it doesnt care how it gets there.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2018 - 01:14 PM.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

"Stat padders".

How do you pad stats?

LRMs! Lots and lots of LRMs! <maniacal >

Aloha, on 23 June 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

That statement is untrue. It's 26 pages of discussion, not all one-sided. That's why there should be a vote. Then we'll know for sure what the concensus are.

Well, you know what happened the last time something (i.e. someone) was put to a vote.

Edited by Mystere, 23 June 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 23 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

of course adding dinosaurs is silly. thats the whole point. but it would attract tons of new players to the game, a game which has lost half its player base in the last 18 months... this game is going to continue to die slowly if it doesnt do something to get new players. dwindling player populations combined with too many buckets is just going to exacerbate the existing problems.

Then I'd rather let it die ... just like the real dinosaurs did.

dario03, on 23 June 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Dinosaur consumable? Red smoke followed by a swarm of raptors, or a T-Rex out of no where, or a bunch of pterodactyls carry off an enemy?

Damn you! Now I am tempted to reconsider my position on this dinosaur issue. Damn you I say!

Edited by Mystere, 23 June 2018 - 01:46 PM.