518 replies to this topic

[Steve Ward]

MegaCyberWolf, on 12 July 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

Seems to me, after reading all the feedback, that battle value is a huge missed opportunity; both for the game, and the forums. I'm being serious. I think battle value could be great for the game, and the forums.

In the forums, we can't argue about tonnage. Tonnage is tonnage. But we can argue about battle value. PGI can stop "balancing" weapons and mechs, and balance bv. We can argue about bv balance for years to come.

To fully embrace this model, the game should have asymmetrical battles. Hear me out. Clan players would earn the honor of playing clan mechs, by being elite players. Also players could pay real money for the privilege of playing clans. *trollface

Elite players should enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of killing hordes of potato scrub ftp IS players. IS players will enjoy numerical and/or tonnage superiority.

Edit, forgot to add, "battle value nerf?, your mech just became more valuable" *trollface

Just my thoughts

MCW

Recently a Nova pilot.

I think this is a good idea and it would be closer to lore as well.
Additional there should be a new value for honor in fights. A Clan warrior who will choose a higher BV than necessary should receive less or no honor. This new value could be used for discounts when you buy mechs and / or to get a higher rank.
Something similar should also work for Draconis Combinate warriors.

Just thinking out loud...

[Rho Treska]

Steve Ward, on 13 July 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

Just thinking out loud...

Hell, I'd be absolutely down with that. While we're at it, add bonuses for piloting faction specific 'mechs and conduct in a faction specific way all across the spectrum. But it does hinge on PGI being willing to create a setting which allows for asymmetrical teams, and that's where the future looks bleak.

[Y E O N N E]

Six-Pack, on 12 July 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

These people don't want to be objective, they want to drop the mic and say: "I'm done" to show off rather than critically think things through. All the advantages that clan tech has are brushed away by the magic phrase: "IS armor quirks". So is it any good trying to catter to such an audience?

The IS armor quirks are a factor, though.

Really, I don't find Clan alphas to be problematic. More problematic to me is how hot a top-tier mid-range IS laser vomit build runs and how IS vomit Assaults can't run them any better than IS vomit Heavies due to slot constraints. Let them run slightly colder and fire a little faster than they do now (i.e. drop ERML heat from 4.5 to 4.2 and drop ERML cooldown from 3.5 to 3.25) and it's fine.

[Six-Pack]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 July 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

The IS armor quirks are a factor, though.

Really, I don't find Clan alphas to be problematic. More problematic to me is how hot a top-tier mid-range IS laser vomit build runs and how IS vomit Assaults can't run them any better than IS vomit Heavies due to slot constraints. Let them run slightly colder and fire a little faster than they do now (i.e. drop ERML heat from 4.5 to 4.2 and drop ERML cooldown from 3.5 to 3.25) and it's fine.

In a pure vaccuum disregarding every other difference between IS and Clan tech, Clan Large Energy and Ballistics are 20-25% lighter and smaller that alone means that Clanners can have up to 20-25% more firepower at the same tonnage which would justify 20%armor quirks alone. Then you have cXL, cFerro and cEndo, cDHS and cSensors(from the basic spotting to BAPs and ECM). I don't believe armor quirks negate all of that.

[BoMbY]

Clan ER-Medium Laser: Damage reduction to 5.25 is too much compared to the other changes - if anything it should be 6.25.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Six-Pack, on 13 July 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:

In a pure vaccuum disregarding every other difference between IS and Clan tech, Clan Large Energy and Ballistics are 20-25% lighter and smaller that alone means that Clanners can have up to 20-25% more firepower at the same tonnage which would justify 20%armor quirks alone. Then you have cXL, cFerro and cEndo, cDHS and cSensors(from the basic spotting to BAPs and ECM). I don't believe armor quirks negate all of that.

Things in a pure vaccum aren't relevant. Aside from the fact that clan laser alpha may be a bit out of line, let me ask you this sir: Do you think that clans are OP?

[KrocodockleTheBooBoxLoader-GetIn]

Buff clans to tabletop levels. Merge QP and FW. Make it 12 v 8 or 12 v 6 if necessary, IS vs Clan. Would be so dope

[RaithSienar]

Thanks PGI, I've been desperately looking for something to break this games hold on me so I can go play Warframe and give Digital Extremes, devs that actually listen to their community, money instead of people that constantly ignore the community.

Really want to be a ninja but stomping around in my Virago Hellbringer and Esprit De Corps Ebon Jaguar were just too damn fun, can't wait till you kill that so I can finally leave.

Krocodockle, on 13 July 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

Buff clans to tabletop levels. Merge QP and FW. Make it 12 v 8 or 12 v 6 if necessary, IS vs Clan. Would be so dope

It should be 10 v 12. 2 Stars vs 3 lances was consistently how the Clans and IS fought, but hell this is completely unviable currently simply because the Annihilator is blatantly the most powerful mech in the game right now, and the IS having literally anything but 12 Annihilators at the start of FP is unlikely to say the least.

Edited by RaithSienar, 13 July 2018 - 08:31 AM.

[Six-Pack]

Jack Shayu ., on 13 July 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

Things in a pure vaccum aren't relevant. Aside from the fact that clan laser alpha may be a bit out of line, let me ask you this sir: Do you think that clans are OP?

Hence why I said 'then add cXL, cFerro etc' which is a lot of stacking in Clan favor. Are Clans OP? No, they are just superior in many cases, in others they aren't - like 100t range where weight is not an issue for IS anymore and they enjoy massive armor quirks. However certain mechs at certain points of the game's life were OP because of the superiority that clan tech provided.

I just want to point out that 'cuz armor quirks' is a pretty lame argument if you are forgetting to take into account all of the advantages of Clan tech.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Six-Pack, on 13 July 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

Hence why I said 'then add cXL, cFerro etc' which is a lot of stacking in Clan favor. Are Clans OP? No, they are just superior in many cases, in others they aren't - like 100t range where weight is not an issue for IS anymore and they enjoy massive armor quirks. However certain mechs at certain points of the game's life were OP because of the superiority that clan tech provided.

I just want to point out that 'cuz armor quirks' is a pretty lame argument if you are forgetting to take into account all of the advantages of Clan tech.

My question is if you think that clans as a whole are more powerful than IS on whole, to any significant degree.

[Grus]

I'm still waiting for the ability to do the PTS.

[Grus]

I'm patching the PTS right now... I think it's stuck though. "Preparing to install base"

[Jack Shayu Walker]

People don't seem to understand clans look good on paper precisely because PGI in the past has spent so much time and effort bringing clans and IS into balance while making sure clans do look better on paper. That was kindof the point of the compromise made between lore and balance.

That's why IS mechs are coated in armor quirks. That's why all of their equipment is, despite being heavier, more effective than their clan counterparts. That's why in the Civil War update, clans mostly got garbage in terms of equipment and why IS got a plethora of new and highly effective toys. It's because all of that balances out the fact that clanners can has more guns, and go fast.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 13 July 2018 - 11:27 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Game 1: Medium lasers burn for too long and gen too much heat for their new damage level. Returning the damage to 6 or further reducing the heat and burn time is necessary.

Game 2: Damage reduction on mediums and smalls has totally hamstrung their ability to output meaningful DPS, much less a decent alpha strike.

Game 3: Third verse same as the second. Clan Light and Medium mechs that rely on energy weapons, can no longer function under this new patch.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 13 July 2018 - 11:54 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 13 July 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Game 1: Medium lasers burn for too long and gen too much heat for their new damage level. Returning the damage to 6 or further reducing the heat and burn time is neccisary.

I'm not surprised that this is an issue at all.. hopefully they dial back the reduction a bit.

[FrontlineAssembly]

There is/was no need for any of these changes to clan weapons! PGI has serious ocd when it comes to nerfing clan tech. They cant stop themselves...have to nerf...omg...have to nerf...anxiety attack coming on if we dont.
This is another case of PGI nerfing things to hell, and then giving back a pitance, and thinking they are making the game better. Lets take away a very large percentage of dmg, and then give a very small buff to cooldown and duration. The duration buffs are useless. And why does clan gauss suddenly need recoil??? It Doesnt..its just another way to stick it to the clan players. The higher ghost heat threshold is a joke. Thier attempts at balancing are completely incompetent. Unless the real goal is to drive away players, and do away with clans entirely.
Seriously why would anyone buy new mechs at this point??? All they are going to do is let you play it as it is out of the box for a month or so. Then say its OP, and nerf it, or nerf the intended build/purpose of it.
These are just another example of how PGI seems to want to kill there own game.
They have time to come up with this crap, but cant fix bugs that have been in game for years. Cant make a new play mode that is worth a damn. Nerfing with no idea of its true impact. Not listening to the player base is a great way to have a dead game.......

Edited by FrontlineAssembly, 13 July 2018 - 01:36 PM.

[Dran Dragore]

OK, PGI. Some Feedback from my Side from the Test Server. Tried several Laser Boats from the Clans.

Begining with the Nova Prime with 8 ER Med Lasers. The Mech is now the worst Crap ever. Done ~240-250 Damage untill i went down. And i wasnt focused. It feels like you dont do any damage to the enemys. IS Mechs where totaly dominating this. As expected.

Second: Timber Wolf A with 3 Large Pulser in left Torso and an ATM12 in the right. The same ****: its nice to fire 3 LPL without Shadow heat. But you recognize the less damge of them. You are Hot as Hell and cant fire 3 Salvos untill dive away.

Third: Linebacker with 6 Med Pulse Lasers: stays cool. Thats all of positive. You dont make the Damage for an Clan 65t Mech. Takes too long for doing enough damage to enemys. Enemy IS Medium shoot me down.

PGI, i can just tell you: if you bring this to the game you lose a lot of players. Maybe me too. The clans dont make any fun to play and thats the worst thing ever.

[Dee Eight]

While technically in the tabletop rules the ER lasers were supposed to in at least the case of the large be more heat than damage (12 for 10), and the large pulse was equal heat to damage (10 for 10), what you've now put on the pts is garbage. A ER medium shouldn't be more heat than damage (it wasn't in the tabletop version) for the clan side. Doing so cripples all light and medium mechs which don't have the tonnage for more than 2 large lasers.

[ForceUser]

First test was an old classic favourite of mine, the Marauder IIC-8 laver vomit.

- Old Build: 2LPL 5ERML, XL380, TC1 with 29 DHS. Alpha of 59
- New Build: 3LPL 4ERML, XL365, not TC and 27 DHS Alpha of 54

Now I remember the old build being able to only just alpha 2 times, with skill tree, and then having to lean on 2 LPLs for an alpha of 24. It was a little awkward as it lacked a decent punch and I tended to just wait for the heat to go down and alpha again.

The new build so far plays pretty good. Alpha is close to what it was and the heat is ever so slightly higher with dissipation and capacity slightly lower so all in all the effectiveness is probably reduced by around 5%-10% taking into account the slitghly reduced speed and range. However leaning on 3 LPLs for an alpha of 33 feels a lot more comfortable and means I've been much more willing to poke and use only them, especially because they now offer superior damage per heat. The ERMLs feel like the supplementary weapons now, rather than the main point of the mech. I only use them when I want to alpha or emergency finish off a mech.

More mech builds and testing to follow!

Edited by ForceUser, 13 July 2018 - 02:35 PM.

[ForceUser]

Next up is the Hellbringer, the one and only. This mech is responsible, back when I ran 2LPL+4ERML, for the single highest cbill reward I have ever received in a quickplay match in the 5 years that I've played (770k cbills).

The build I'll be testing is the more recent 2HLL+4ERML and it won't be changing for testing.

Original alpha was 64 for 57.2 heat. Generally I'd tend to fire off a single alpha and usually be able to fire a 2nd alpha by the time the HLL came off cooldown. After that I'd lean on the ERML for the 28 alpha at only 25.2 heat rather than the 36 alpha at 32 heat, especially due to the duration. HLL were relegated to being used with a full alpha or emergency kill attempts.

New alpha is 53 for 54.8 heat. It doesn't feel like a huge difference. I can feel the difference in alpha but I can also just barely alpha 3 times now on HLL cooldown on canyon with the appropriate skill tree nodes (2/3 of the cooldown nodes, all Duration and Heat Gen, all but the last 2 cool run nodes). I feel a little bit more flexible but that comes at the cost of a decent bit of punch. I managed over 600 damage in each of 2 matches, not bad for a 4v4.

A new build however has opened up for this mech. 3ERLL + 3 ERML. This build is very familiar to anyone who regularly pilots IS laser mechs as 3 LL + 3 ERML has been a staple since civil war tech and 3LPL+ML has been a staple before that. In fact this is exactly what I run on a number of 50-65t mechs like the Uziel, Jester, Rifleman, etc.

Initially it didn't feel as great in the PTS but it's a build much more suited to how a normal quick play or CW match would play out than a 4v4. The 2nd match went much better depsite being a close range brawl, getting close to 500 damage. Lower damage due to worse damage per heat overall is expected (and is made up for in range). The ranged poke is pretty incredible on it with 30 damage at almost 850m. The alpha is a relatively small 45.7 (compared to IS 42 for a similar loadout) and the heat is still a toasty 49.5. If you're not taking advantage of the huge range advantage on the mech you're better off with the HLL build, however it's better than the old 4ERLL build normally found on the hellbringer as it has a bigger alpha while still keeping a respectable mid range alpha. You can not alpha 3 times despite the cooler alpha due the the much shorter ERLL cooldown. However, the ERLL and ERML cooldown and duration sync perfectly. So worse alpha and damage per heat but much better damage at extreme range and better quality alphas (Duration/Sync).

Edited by ForceUser, 13 July 2018 - 03:47 PM.