226 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Leone, on 03 October 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Do you realize you just called using teamwork a cheat right? I mean, it's not like you don't have some decent points in there, it's just, you know, you've got some things like that in there.

~Leone.

I think youre confused.

its not using teamwork thats cheating.

its stacking teams ahead of time thats cheating. when you use any method to stack more good players on your team, knowing full well the other team wont have an equal number of good players, youre giving yourself an unfair advantage. youre effectively rigging the game in your favor. thats the very definition of cheating. in real life competitive sports stacking teams is always against the rules. even little league coaches/parents have gotten in big trouble for stacking the most athletic kids all on one team instead of evenly distributing them among all the teams.

unfortunately its a form of cheating that PGI condones... because to disallow it would require them to take action and build a functional matchmaker to manage group queue which PGI is either incapable or unwilling to do.

Edited by Khobai, 03 October 2018 - 12:57 PM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

I think youre confused.

its not using teamwork thats cheating.

its stacking teams ahead of time thats cheating. when you use any method to stack more good players on your team, knowing full well the other team wont have an equal number of good players, youre giving yourself an unfair advantage. youre effectively rigging the game in your favor. thats the very definition of cheating. in real life sports stacking teams is illegal. even little league coaches/parents haven gotten in big trouble for stacking the most athletic kids all on one team instead of randomly distributing them among all the teams.

unfortunately its a form of cheating that PGI condones... because to disallow it would require them to take action and build a functional matchmaker to manage group queue which PGI is either incapable or unwilling to do.

On real life sports, teams stack all the time. How else do you describe the Golden State Warriors, or several iterations of Lebron James teams?

[R0gal D0rn]

Vxheous, on 03 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

On real life sports, teams stack all the time. How else do you describe the Golden State Warriors, or several iterations of Lebron James teams?

Man, is it such difficult to understand? Stack good players is a key to GROUP QUEUE, obviously. But using the group queue advantages when the other team has the SOLO queue diusadvantages is by definition unfair.
Using takedowns and kicks is fair in UFC and cheating in boxing. Same here. And you are saying that "kicking and throwing are valid fight techniques" If you want stack good players, it´s allowed in group play or in CW.

You can do all the mental juggilng you want to try to justificate what is, in nuce, a cheat.

[Vxheous]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 03 October 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Man, is it such difficult to understand? Stack good players is a key to GROUP QUEUE, obviously. But using the group queue advantages when the other team has the SOLO queue diusadvantages is by definition unfair.
Using takedowns and kicks is fair in UFC and cheating in boxing. Same here. And you are saying that "kicking and throwing are valid fight techniques" If you want stack good players, it´s allowed in group play or in CW.

You can do all the mental juggilng you want to try to justificate what is, in nuce, a cheat.

Khobai is referring to all game modes, he's been arguing about strong groups being a cheat in other threads. As far as solo queue goes, personally I think sync dropping is stupid, and I'm pretty sure PGI has said that it's an exploit (though they don't enforce anything during super low population time, like oceanic prime time).

Edited by Vxheous, 03 October 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[Horseman]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

its stacking teams ahead of time thats cheating. when you use any method to stack more good players on your team,

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youre effectively rigging the game in your favor. thats the very definition of cheating.

No. It's the definition of building a goddamn team.

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knowing full well the other team wont have an equal number of good players,

You don't. There's no player draft system here.

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in real life competitive sports stacking teams is always against the rules. even little league coaches/parents have gotten in big trouble for stacking the most athletic kids all on one team instead of evenly distributing them among all the teams.

No, it's not "against the rules". You're referring to something that happened in a situation where there's a player draft system in place. Read up how that works.

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 03 October 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Man, is it such difficult to understand? Stack good players is a key to GROUP QUEUE, obviously. But using the group queue advantages when the other team has the SOLO queue diusadvantages is by definition unfair.

And Khobai is referring to group queue explicitly in his post...

Edited by Horseman, 03 October 2018 - 02:35 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

knowing full well the other team wont have an equal number of good players.....

And how do we know that? I've been on stacked teams a lot (I will often not play if I cant find 3 or 4 minimum to group with) and have run into other stacked groups. We ran into a 10 man of KCOM last night, had a great time. We group up not to stomp newbs and puggles, but to fight other groups. Those are the best fights. The choice is either don't group up and lose to stacked teams, or be a stacked team. That's and easy choice to make.

[Vxheous]

Eisenhorne, on 03 October 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

And how do we know that? I've been on stacked teams a lot (I will often not play if I cant find 3 or 4 minimum to group with) and have run into other stacked groups. We ran into a 10 man of KCOM last night, had a great time. We group up not to stomp newbs and puggles, but to fight other groups. Those are the best fights. The choice is either don't group up and lose to stacked teams, or be a stacked team. That's and easy choice to make.

Most group queue groups aren't even that "stacked", most groups give each other pretty even fights

[catsonmeth]

Of all the things to whine about...

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 03 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

On real life sports, teams stack all the time. How else do you describe the Golden State Warriors, or several iterations of Lebron James teams?

no. you cant deliberately stack teams in sports. thats why they do player drafts and have max team salaries to prevent deliberate stacking. MWO has no such safeguards and stupidly allows players to stack one team with all the best players to ensure victory.

Vxheous, on 03 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Khobai is referring to all game modes, he's been arguing about strong groups being a cheat in other threads.

im referring to group queue primarily. but also syncdropping in solo queue. syncdropping is in essence a way to team stack in solo queue.

Horseman, on 03 October 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

No. It's the definition of building a goddamn team.

Absolutely. It is the definition of building a goddamed team: A goddamned unfair stacked team that abuses the lack of a matchmaker to give itself an unfair advantage.

When you stack an unnatural number of good players on one team, without a matchmaker to equally balance the number of good players on both teams, youre robbing the other team of having a fair chance to win.

Horseman, on 03 October 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

No, it's not "against the rules". You're referring to something that happened in a situation where there's a player draft system in place. Read up how that works.

I dont believe I said it was against the rules in MWO.

I just said it was a condoned form of cheating in MWO. PGI may turn their head the other way and ignore the problem, but it is still very much cheating IMO.

Youre abusing the system to gain an unfair advantage. That is by definition cheating. It may not be against the rules, so in that sense its perhaps a lesser form of cheating, but its still certainly unfair and unsportsmanlike. Theres no other way of looking at it: its taking advantage of the system to give your team a deliberate and superbly unfair advantage.

Edited by Khobai, 03 October 2018 - 09:45 PM.

[Horseman]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

MWO has no such safeguards and stupidly allows players to stack one team with all the best players to ensure victory.

Yes, well, where are Proton and Bowser? Not on my team. Not on yours either. GG.

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im referring to group queue primarily. but also syncdropping in solo queue. syncdropping is in essence a way to team stack in solo queue.

Syncdropping is considered abuse, yes, but it is also uncontrollable. If I queue up and find myself in the same match as one of my unit-mates, what the **** do you expect me to do, disconnect?

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When you stack an unnatural number of good players on one team, without a matchmaker to equally balance the number of good players on both teams, youre robbing the other team of having a fair chance to win.

Hardly. If we have a larger group, our team will be at a disadvantage in tonnage - possibly a major one - compared to a team composed of a bunch of smaller groups. That's your balancing factor right there.

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I dont believe I said it was against the rules in MWO.

What I was saying was that the only time it is "forbidden" in competitive sports is when there is a player draft system in place. The only place in MWO where such a thing could apply is in Solo Queue.
Those systems have limitations, and at some levels they straight out do not apply - for example, India does not get to recruit players from England and vice versa.

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Absolutely. It is the definition of building a goddamed team: A goddamned unfair stacked team that abuses the lack of a matchmaker to give itself an unfair advantage.

Quote

I just said it was a condoned form of cheating in MWO. PGI may turn their head the other way and ignore the problem, but it is still very much cheating IMO.
Youre abusing the system to gain an unfair advantage. That is by definition cheating. It may not be against the rules, so in that sense its perhaps a lesser form of cheating, but its still certainly unfair and unsportsmanlike. Theres no other way of looking at it: its taking advantage of the system to give your team a deliberate and superbly unfair advantage.

Dude, you're foaming at the mouth, ranting about something that does not pertain to the thread's subject. Stop it and get off your personal soapbox.

Edited by Horseman, 03 October 2018 - 10:27 PM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 03 October 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

no. you cant deliberately stack teams in sports. thats why they do player drafts and have max team salaries to prevent deliberate stacking. MWO has no such safeguards and stupidly allows players to stack one team with all the best players to ensure victory.

Clearly you don't watch sports much. There are lots of professional athletes that take pay-cuts and restructure their contracts as to keep their "super team" intact while fitting under salary caps. Also, players are not tied to their drafted team forever, once their entry-level contracts expire, most leagues have restricted free agency as their next contract level, then unrestricted free agency where the player can go wherever they want, as long as the team they sign with can fit them within the salary cap. This happens in all Pro sports, Football, Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Soccer, etc.

Edited by Vxheous, 03 October 2018 - 10:42 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

You know what, after having being trolled in game repeatedly today, I've changed my mind, countercall all you want, troll eachother and don't respond to commands. Your teammates are quite likely trying to troll/get you killed with a low score, will block you to die, shoot you in the back etc etc. So yeah, just try to have some fun in the literal trollfest this game is, f literally everything else.

[Mystere]

We're soooooooo wayyyyyyyyy out of topic now.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 03 October 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

Clearly you don't watch sports much. There are lots of professional athletes that take pay-cuts and restructure their contracts as to keep their "super team" intact while fitting under salary caps

but everyone in the league is still a professional athlete

its not at all like MWO where one team can be stacked and the other team has potatos

[Mole]

Kanil, on 25 September 2018 - 05:25 PM, said:

... I'd think that would depend a lot on just how bad the order is. Teams just aimlessly wandering around HPG doing their own thing tend to do better than ones that actively try to get people to go basement.

Basement is actually a pretty solid tactic if it's skirmish, you achieve a kill lead first, and everyone ******* listens. At that point you've got your entire team in a highly defensible position with the enemy team in a situation where they either push into your line and get murdered or they lose on a timeout. Problem with this tactic is it only works on skirmish and I think domination since it leaves no option for victory via objective and there's always that one jackass that won't listen and goes out and gets himself killed and ruins the whole thing by giving the enemy their kill lead back.

Edited by Mole, 04 October 2018 - 04:15 AM.

[El Bandito]

Eisenhorne, on 03 October 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

And how do we know that? I've been on stacked teams a lot (I will often not play if I cant find 3 or 4 minimum to group with) and have run into other stacked groups. We ran into a 10 man of KCOM last night, had a great time. We group up not to stomp newbs and puggles, but to fight other groups. Those are the best fights. The choice is either don't group up and lose to stacked teams, or be a stacked team. That's and easy choice to make.

Most FP players do not have the ability of stacking up. And if they somehow get 12 random players together as a team they can be easily stomped by all the good FP units. Case in point: during these past few days, in NA prime time Clan side was mostly dropping three groups. One was KCom, another was EVIL+BCMC, third was CSPS. IS side mostly ran just two groups. One was MS, and the other was HHoD. There is simply no space for most random groups to squeeze in and have decent chance of winning against them. Which means for the pugs there is no reason to play FP during such times. And if NA prime time becomes empty then FP is as good as dead.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 October 2018 - 08:17 AM.

[K O Z A K]

"all good players pls stop teaming up in this team based game and come carry me as I slam into your back and prevent your movement while lurming your rear CT, thanks"

signed

- kartofel

[Horseman]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

but everyone in the league is still a professional athlete
its not at all like MWO where one team can be stacked and the other team has potatos

Everyone in MWO is a player with access to the same educational resources and nobody is beyond improving - unless they choose not to.
I'm not saying everyone was born equal, but most players are capable of bringing their performance up if they're willing to invest a little effort about it and more importantly think about what they're doing (what mechs they're bringing, what loadouts they're putting on them, what are common strategies they observed on the map that's coming up), discard or reevaluate builds and tactics that fail and try to capitalize on things that worked before.
Potatoes who do not want to advance and yet go into GQ are simply playing the wrong queue.

Edited by Horseman, 04 October 2018 - 07:46 AM.

[Starwulfe]

I can understand grumping about the matchmaker in FP, because there isn't one.

But in group queue, the 'stacked' team has severe tonnage penalties to balance things out.
Severe enough that if the other team works together they should still get a good fight.

As to the topic, if no one else does and a young commander steps up,. follow them. Give them a chance to learn.
They just need to be nice about it.
When a bad call is being made, AND if there's time, be POLITE and make a suggestion.
Otherwise suck it up and follow the call and help as best you can.
Then again, if there's time later, be polite and explain why it failed.
Rude goofballs on either side don't help anything.

Edited by Starwulfe, 04 October 2018 - 02:20 PM.

[TheArisen]

Starwulfe, on 04 October 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

I can understand grumping about the matchmaker in FP, because there isn't one.

But in group queue, the 'stacked' team has severe tonnage penalties to balance things out.
Severe enough that if the other team works together they should still get a good fight.

As to the topic, if no one else does and a young commander steps up,. follow them. Give them a chance to learn.
They just need to be nice about it.
When a bad call is being made, AND if there's time, be POLITE and make a suggestion.
Otherwise suck it up and follow the call and help as best you can.
Then again, if there's time later, be polite and explain why it failed.
Rude goofballs on either side don't help anything.

Best answer right here.