220 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

C337Skymaster, on 21 June 2021 - 04:09 PM, said:

Any comment on why the CPLT-C4 seems able to move so much better than the A1, C1, or C2, (or why Butterbee can move any better, for that matter) since they all come with the same engine, and are intended to basically all be the same 'mech with different weapons?

That "different weapons" part can be a pretty big factor in most cases. Essentially all mech variants are "the same mech with different weapons"

Also consider that this is only the Agility pass. Quirks will be on their way too... that will be the main thing that's going to be used to address weaknesses and differentiate between variants.

Edited by Navid A1, 21 June 2021 - 04:37 PM.

[Leone]

SockSlayer, on 21 June 2021 - 04:08 PM, said:

Do you know if the flamer will receive any love? It still feels like it is super nerfed in most cases, this after literally tons of mech testing.

From back then in 2016 when it was originally changed...

https://vimeo.com/149093008

Flamers used to be broken, now they're not. Still good. Still short range. So many folk have no idea how to handle being flamed.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 21 June 2021 - 04:39 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 04:36 PM, said:

That "different weapons" part can be a pretty big factor in most cases. Essentially all mech variants are "the same mech with different weapons"

Also consider that this is only the Agility pass. Quirks will be on their way too... that will be the main thing that's going to be used to address weaknesses and differentiate between variants.

Just highlighting because important factor many forget about

[FupDup]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

We're preparing a number of weapon tweaks to present to PGI for July.

What might those be?

[SockSlayer]

justcallme A S H, on 21 June 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

What type of buffs and/or changes are you wanting to see?

---------

Flamers are pretty strong at what they are meant to do currently.

Being able to boat 10 Flamers and instantly send a target from 0 to 90% in 0.1s was horribly unbalanced and that should never come back. 4 Flamers can sufficiently take a mech out of a fight in a couple of seconds.

They don't expoentially generate heat unless you are running around with them on in a continuous fashion. You need to start/stop using them. Being able to run around with them flaming constantly would again be unbalanced.

As for the 90% cap. Well, that is a fun-element of balance. It isn't fun to have something come upto you and shut you down and it takes 5-7 seconds to power up again, only to shutdown . again. So 90% means for many mechs they can only use 1-2 weapons out of their 4-10...

Given you can really heat up a mech with 2 flamers and then take advantage of their capped heat - they do work. You of course have to get close.

Two changes:

The heat penalty for 10 flamers is insane, you instantly shutdown if you even tap the button once, these aren't er ppcs so to instantly shutdown your mech is complete overkill. The heat penalty needs to be at least where someone could fire at least 2 seconds or even 1 second vs not being able to do anything at all...

Fix the physics problem... max range (not the optimum range) needs to be boosted. Take a candle, put your hand just out of the range of the visible flame...guess what, you will still get burned... heat does not magically disappear at 91m, but should tapper out like a laser, though its dropoff would mean max range might be only 10 to 20 m longer than normal range, it still should follow how a flamer or anything involving a flame actually works.

Leone, on 21 June 2021 - 04:38 PM, said:

https://vimeo.com/149093008

Flamers used to be broken, now they're not. Still good. Still short range. So many folk have no idea how to handle being flamed.

~Leone.

That video...sniffle. I miss those flames.

[Elizander]

I was hoping for a little bit more on the turn rate for larger mechs but it's a good start. Hopefully my Stormcrow won't feel like it's trying to hit the breaks on an oil slick now.

[D V Devnull]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 02:13 PM, said:

Nice touch on the agility table section Matt/Daeron

Daeron Katz, on 21 June 2021 - 02:15 PM, said:

Totally agree! 100% the work of Jamie and Mark.

dario03, on 21 June 2021 - 02:45 PM, said:

Good job. Easy to read and find mechs.

Lockheed_, on 21 June 2021 - 03:33 PM, said:

that table is such a nice touch!
can't wait for the patch to go live!

justcallme A S H, on 21 June 2021 - 03:44 PM, said:

Echoing Navid's words. They have killed it.

The table is dead set amazing.

People... it's funny... it happens that I also like the concept of having a table to quickly see these changes with. Those who did it have my appreciation and thanks, regardless of anything else which I may say on the matter...


However, I do happen to have two criticisms/comments/suggestions/<whatever-the-heck-ya-wanna-call-it> worth taking the time to state for consideration by Daeron/Matt/Mark/Jamie/etc. on this one and in the future. Here they are...


Linking for reference, both from the 1.4.242.0 Patch and in the future

It's extremely good & appreciated to be able to reference these easily, but I notice that the link is not set up with a Date attached. Instead of only keeping the current state available for reference with a single URL like this...

-->> https://mwomercs.com/mech-mobility-changes

...it would be more helpful if this were made possible to have several iterations, each attached to their matching Patch Notes as of the time of the change, similar to this one for 'June 2021' in format...

-->> https://mwomercs.com...anges-2021-june
(this link is not currently valid at the time of my posting, but may become valid in the future if somebody is willing to do some magic on PGI's backend system)

...so that people would then have the ability to compare changes back and forth, enabling constructive discussion of why a change might be better or not. Also, if for some reason a change along the way should happen to cause something to seem unreasonable and/or broken in a bad way, then a particular version of that change can be pointed at quickly as a possible way to break out of a bad spot. I really hope that this date-related idea for the tables will therefore get implemented, even if for no more reason than to see how things change over time. It would even be funny if someone put it all into a giant line graph over time for some visual perspective on the effects of various changes.


Table Layout, and its' Default Sort

So... I get this is a first iteration, and I much appreciate even having it at all. I'm not gonna nitpick on saying the current one would have to be altered to match what I'm going to suggest here. It can stay as it's currently constructed for historical purposes, as well as not stressing out those who put this together. I'll simply hope that any changes in format are implemented with the following changes' tables and what's contained on them.

That said, having things in a bit of a jumble makes it really hard to find & compare things within a single Weight Class section, and makes it several times harder when trying to compare across multiple Weight Class sections. Therefore, it happens that I would like to ask for similar arrangement of the displayed changes to how the Mech Select and/or the In-Game Store's display does it. Basically, please list it so that the Weight Classes are all in their proper order, and the Mechs for a given Weight Class are then arranged within by alphabetic order. This would hopefully improve everyone's capability to quickly reference information from these tables on the fly without having to jump up and down the list an extra bunch of times. Who really wants to stress their eyes & hands out with tons of extra scrolling anyway? I don't think any of us do!

Katrina Steiner, on 21 June 2021 - 02:28 PM, said:

Thank you for adjusting the spawn points in Tourmaline!

Agreed, provided that nobody ever spawn again in that E4 spot. Over-exposing a full lance of one Team upon initial drop really threw the game's balancing out the window on the Tourmaline Desert map, and generally ruined the experience for too many people. I think we can agree silly & frustrating trouble like that is something which we never want to see again in any map!

Daeron Katz, on 21 June 2021 - 02:15 PM, said:

<<<no content for this part, quote used to ping>>>

Hi there, Daeron... I noticed that it took a fair while for the Patch File Download Link to become available on the previous Monthly Patch Notes information page. Is there any chance that it could please become available more quickly once the servers come back to "Online" status after the patching is done? It would be extremely appreciated, and something I would personally be rather thankful for, as not everyone can rely directly upon their internet connection in relation to the MWO Portal program. Just for a rough mental visual, I personally have to pull the file with my web browser just to ensure that I will explicitly not get a download that is messed up in some silly way, because my ISP seems to be bent on causing trouble with how certain types of downloads are done. I also know that some other people just don't have the internet provisions needed to try and put up with directly downloading, and they have to go get the file at a different spot and bring it back home in order to not waste their available internet usage each month. It basically boils down that the quicker an available Patch File Download Link shows up governs how quickly some players are then able to get their MWO Game Client patched, and subsequently the speed at which it's put back into proper readiness for jumping in once again to resume playing. I think we can agree that maximizing how quickly the greatest total number of players which want to do an MWO Patch are then able to actually do so would be in everyone's best interests, right?




~D. V. "just giving their overload of thoughts with the 1.4.242.0 Patch and its' elements" Devnull

[justcallme A S H]

SockSlayer, on 21 June 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

Two changes:

The heat penalty for 10 flamers is insane, you instantly shutdown if you even tap the button once, these aren't er ppcs so to instantly shutdown your mech is complete overkill. The heat penalty needs to be at least where someone could fire at least 2 seconds or even 1 second vs not being able to do anything at all...

Fix the physics problem... max range (not the optimum range) needs to be boosted. Take a candle, put your hand just out of the range of the visible flame...guess what, you will still get burned... heat does not magically disappear at 91m, but should tapper out like a laser, though its dropoff would mean max range might be only 10 to 20 m longer than normal range, it still should follow how a flamer or anything involving a flame actually works.


That video...sniffle. I miss those flames.

Point 1 - As I kinda said, instantly shutting down a mech by carrying 10 flamers isn't remotely fun and this is why you can't run around with 10 flamers and do that. It was basically the exact reason it was changed in the first place.

I'm not sure the playerbase would want such an insta-shutdown to occurr or flamer boating to return.

Point 2 - That would need an engineer and right now that isn't possible. When an engineer does become available, on the list of important things to do, I'm not sure a few extra meters of heat / dissipating, would be on the high order of things to address.

Other weapons do have reverse shutoff, PPCs etc where the deadzone is at the start rather than the end of the weapon.


If flamers get discussed I'll make sure to raise your first point although personally - I really can't see it getting much of a vote for reasons outlined. Insta-shutting down with flamer boating was really, really painful to play with/against. Not remotely fun and not what the Cauldron is about - making things fun / viable for everyone.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 21 June 2021 - 05:23 PM, said:

What might those be?

These values are not finalized, Cauldron is meeting later today on Wednesday to have one last debate and reach consensus about them.

IS Changes:

• ER Small Laser: Heat reduced to 1.9 (from 2.2)
  
• Large Laser: Range increased to 480 m (from 450), Heat reduced to 6.4 (from 6.7)
  
• ER Large Laser: Range increased to 740 m (from 700)
  
• Light PPC: Damage increased to 5.5 (from 5)
  
• PPC: some TBD form of damage fall-off between 0 and 90 meters
  
• Snub-nose PPC: Damage increased to 1.5+8.5+1.5 (from 1.5+8+1.5)
  
• LB-5X: Slot requirement reduced to 4 (from 5)
  
• Streak SRM4: Cooldown reduced to 3.25 s (from 3.5 s)
  
• Streak SRM6: Cooldown reduced to 4 s (from 4.25)
  
• LRM (all): Impulse reduced to 0.15 per missile (from 0.3)...massively reduced screen shake

Clan Changes:

• Heavy Small Laser: Cooldown reduced to 3.75 s (from 4)
  
• Heavy Medium Laser: Cooldown reduced to 4.5 s (from 5), Heat reduced to 7.5 (from 8)
  
• Heavy Large Laser: Heat reduced to 14.5 (from 16)
  
• Clan ER Large Laser: Range increased to 810 m (from 770)
  
• Clan Streak SRM2: Damage increased to 1.75 per missile (from 1.5), Cooldown increased to 2.5 s (from 2), Heat increased to 1.45 (from 1.3)
  
• Clan Streak SRM4: Damage increased to 1.75 per missile (from 1.5), Cooldown increased to 3.75 s (from 3), Heat increased to 2.7 (from 2.4)
  
• Clan Streak SRM6: Damage increased to 1.75 per missile (from 1.5), Cooldown increased to 5 s (from 4), Heat increased to 3.5 (from 3.1)
  
• Clan LRM5: Missile Health increased to 1.5 per missile (from 1.2), Impulse reduced to 0.07 per missile (from 0.15)
  
• Clan LRM10: Missile Health increased to 1.25 per missile (from 1.1), Impulse reduced to 0.07 per missile (from 0.15)
  
• Clan LRM15: Missile Health increased to 1.05 per missile (from 0.9), Impulse reduced to 0.07 per missile (from 0.15)
  
• Clan LRM20: Missile Health increased to 0.95 per missile (from 0.8), Impulse reduced to 0.07 per missile (from 0.15)

Edited by Y E O N N E, 21 June 2021 - 09:27 PM.

[K19]

Nice see game not change. End never move out beta... :S thank kill my best map PH :S make new maps not remake old maps you kill this map joke mod "Domination" make ramdom more fun... no never like use you players make this game best. like see next map dead Viridian Bog and Tourmaline Desert . like meel work. Show desert map never show... artly use in mech more funny... this game PVP only fun new players. you Chenge in Canyon Network vrs2 bugs in map not chenge. Map more easy play need use Skilll "Jokes" make game wors ouhter players Simic you see all move all spot jump LRM use same never chenge make game more skill use map help players use skill make LT mech win more money in scouting not fire *** big mech.... see arrond. dont like GT

[Lionheart2012]

Hi folks. Not seeing the Atlas on the Mech Mobility Changes chart. No changes? Or an oversight?

[FupDup]

Y E O N N E, on 21 June 2021 - 05:46 PM, said:

These values are not finalized, Cauldron is meeting later today to have one last debate and reach consensus about them.

• Large Laser: Range increased to 480 m (from 450), Heat reduced to 6.4 (from 6.7)
  
• LB-5X: Slot requirement reduced to 4 (from 5)

For the LL I think it's too weak because of lacking damage more than lacking range. Pushing the range too high means that it might start stepping on the toes of the ERLL because soup queue games don't usually have the kind of trading ranges that FP does. I'd keep the heat reduction but increase the damage to 9.5 IMO.

The LB 5-X change is underwhelming and still doesn't give the weapon a niche (same as the LB 2-X slot buff).

I'm fine with most of the rest.

[Y E O N N E]

Lionheart2012, on 21 June 2021 - 06:01 PM, said:

Hi folks. Not seeing the Atlas on the Mech Mobility Changes chart. No changes? Or an oversight?

It already got buffed in the May patch, as did the Firestarter, Kodiak, and Timberwolf.

[justcallme A S H]

Lionheart2012, on 21 June 2021 - 06:01 PM, said:

Hi folks. Not seeing the Atlas on the Mech Mobility Changes chart. No changes? Or an oversight?

Atlas was done in May.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 21 June 2021 - 06:06 PM, said:

For the LL I think it's too weak because of lacking damage more than lacking range. Pushing the range too high means that it might start stepping on the toes of the ERLL because soup queue games don't usually have the kind of trading ranges that FP does. I'd keep the heat reduction but increase the damage to 9.5 IMO.

The LB 5-X change is underwhelming and still doesn't give the weapon a niche (same as the LB 2-X slot buff).

I'm fine with most of the rest.

I can't speak for everyone in the Cauldron, but...

I find the LL weak because it is so easily out-ranged by C-LPLs, a gun with which it otherwise competes against very directly, or is straight out-damaged by the similar-range IS LPLs. Intent with the LL is to really lean on the 4xLL capability, ergo the heat reduction; we'll see where it goes. I don't agree with adding straight damage, but maybe reducing the GH penalty with 5x is a way to crank the damage up on the heavier vomit 'Mechs if that's what they need. I think it's fine that ERLL is a niche weapon, it still plays an outsized role in FP.

Agree that a slot reduction doesn't make the LB-5X good; I think a higher rate of fire might be in order, but then again it is really strong with the reduced spread when boated on an ANH. That's still just one use-case, but it has to be considered. Right now, the slot reduction will at least make it something you can equip without gimping your ability to equip other things vs. an AC/5.

[w0qj]

A BIG thank you to MWO, Matt & Daeron, and of course Cauldron for all the hard work to make this happen!

And a Big thank you to Francois also for Polar Highlands (reborn)!
I do remember Francois specifically said that Polar Highlands would "take a lot of time and work" to rework this map, implying that other [low hanging fruit] maps might be thought about. Thank you for Polar Highlands (reborn)!

Thank you MWO/Cauldron for the Agility Pass webpage!
http://mwomercs.com/...obility-changes

[w0qj]

In May 2021 Agility Pass 1, a total of eight (8) mech chasis and its variants got mobility buffs:
Firestarter, Centurion, Hunchback, Hunchback IIC, Night Gyr, Timber Wolf, Atlas, & Kodiak.

Details for May 2021 Patch (Agility Pass 1):
http://mwomercs.com/...42410-18may2021

- - - - - - - -
Optional: Details for April 2021 Patch (Weapons/Equiupment Pass 1):
http://mwomercs.com/...400-20april2021

Optional: Details for June 2021 Patch (Agility Pass 2):
http://mwomercs.com/...2420-22june2021
http://mwomercs.com/...obility-changes

Lionheart2012, on 21 June 2021 - 06:01 PM, said:

Hi folks. Not seeing the Atlas on the Mech Mobility Changes chart. No changes? Or an oversight?

[SockSlayer]

justcallme A S H, on 21 June 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

Point 1 - As I kinda said, instantly shutting down a mech by carrying 10 flamers isn't remotely fun and this is why you can't run around with 10 flamers and do that. It was basically the exact reason it was changed in the first place.

I'm not sure the playerbase would want such an insta-shutdown to occurr or flamer boating to return.

Point 2 - That would need an engineer and right now that isn't possible. When an engineer does become available, on the list of important things to do, I'm not sure a few extra meters of heat / dissipating, would be on the high order of things to address.

Other weapons do have reverse shutoff, PPCs etc where the deadzone is at the start rather than the end of the weapon.


If flamers get discussed I'll make sure to raise your first point although personally - I really can't see it getting much of a vote for reasons outlined. Insta-shutting down with flamer boating was really, really painful to play with/against. Not remotely fun and not what the Cauldron is about - making things fun / viable for everyone.

Point 1 was slightly missed....instant shut down doesn't exist... there is a 90% cap...also literally every other weapon can boat...even I have a 9 er ppc direwolf...which unlike 9 flamers... will quite kill you.

Its not "remotely fun" to use flamers for the most part. Its actually why I quit before...I had an 11 flamer direwolf, that though it shutdown stuff alot, it didn't deal much damage, the last nerf, the heat penalty. I have used flamers continually, and due to the 90% cap, it is a myth that flamers were overpowered without that penalty. I have used them all the way on light to assault. And again, there is heavy and light mg now...which means all flamers will do is nearly nonexistent damage. The ability analysis I have done repeatedly shows that even with boating the 11 flamers I had...due to its low damage, shutting some one down literally means nothing...The current issues might vanish if there was just a tad more range or damage...but most games will end up with sub-par performance regardless of skill. I can't even name how many flamer designs I have tried...literally the only one I can say really works, is a linebacker, due to its speed and armor. Others are based on luck and good decisions.

Edited by SockSlayer, 21 June 2021 - 07:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Prior to the ghost heat, a Piranha running around with 10-13 flamers could rapidly put the bulk of the enemy team at 90% heat cap with only a second or two spent on each 'Mech. Suddenly an enemy firing line is impotent because none of them can fire enough weapons to deter the enemy, and the match rapidly snowballs into a stomp. I wish Writhenn's Twitch channel still had the videos, because I would love to show you, but it was incredibly broken when used in coordination with other players. We do not need that back in this game.

[justcallme A S H]

^ Yep - any light boating Flamers were incredibly broken. Taking out numerous mechs heat-cap instantly just isn't fun.

I mean yes it's 90% not 'full shutdown' but all it does it a player not to realise whats going on or panic a bit and - well - shutdown. Which happens more often than not as your heat dissipation is neutralised. Or you don't shutdown and you can fire all of 1 ERML until the flamerboat goes away. Not fun.

Really, really not a good idea to bring that back.