228 replies to this topic

[Alex Morgaine]

Nightbird, on 23 June 2021 - 10:25 AM, said:

An updated table of what would actually happen with the cauldron's proposal:

*Wants 20 ton jumping bugs more then ever* min 6JJ

[Vxheous]

Xhaleon, on 24 June 2021 - 07:59 AM, said:

Simple way to avoid a return to the old DS poptart meta especially with all these direct fire weapon buffs lately;
Aim is unstable whenever you are in the air, always, not just when the jump jets are firing. Make it less unstable when freefalling so that its still possible to poptart, but the effectiveness is cut down dramatically to "useful close-range opportunity but not optimal". Technically a soft buff to lock-on weapons I guess.

Now you can give JJs back their full canon or close-to-canon power levels without worry, now there's a system in place that can be spreadsheet-tweaked in the future if its too harsh or too lenient. Of course, this would require them to divert at least one engineer off from whatever they're doing with MW5 DLC. Where are those hired Cryengine merc hands that are supposed to work on this game anyway?

No, because poptarting is a method of play, and PGI never wanted to remove poptarting as a playstyle, only to make it harder hence the shaking of the reticle on the way up. Stop trying to remove playstyles that you don't like.

[Xhaleon]

Vxheous, on 24 June 2021 - 08:20 PM, said:

No, because poptarting is a method of play, and PGI never wanted to remove poptarting as a playstyle, only to make it harder hence the shaking of the reticle on the way up. Stop trying to remove playstyles that you don't like.

I poptart every now and then. I said to add in a new mechanic to hard cap its effectiveness and prevent it from being as dominating as a playstyle like back during the Dragon Slayer days. Being 100% accurate in the air really isn't kind of how Battletech is supposed to work. "80%" accuracy is enough to curtail this, whereby the hits may still be made but maybe not on the exact part one aimed at.

Though that said, I think YueFei's idea is a decent alternative as well:

YueFei, on 24 June 2021 - 10:48 AM, said:

I wouldn't do reticule shake in the air at all times. Rather it might be a more nuanced change to have a shake dissipation delay, where after you release the JJs it takes some time to stop shaking.

Placing an acceleration curve on the JJ shake returning to normal means one has to spend more vulnerable time in the air, fly a higher distance above the cover, in order to have the time to return to stability and make that quick shot before falling back down. This would simultaneously allow JJs to have a thrust output more akin to canon values while giving a reason to mount more JJs than the bare minimum. For the latter concern I think just having more initial thrust and a larger fuel tank for repeated jumps on MWO's modestly vertical maps is enough of a reason, but providing more valid reasons to do so is better.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 24 June 2021 - 08:20 PM, said:

No, because poptarting is a method of play, and PGI never wanted to remove poptarting as a playstyle, only to make it harder hence the shaking of the reticle on the way up. Stop trying to remove playstyles that you don't like.

Nobody wants to remove poptarting as a playstyle. They just dont want to see it become the dominant playstyle again.

But now Cauldron is removing the safeguards PGI put in place to prevent poptarting from being the dominant playstyle.

Once stronger jumpjets are implemented theres only one more thing Cauldron needs to do to make poptarting absolutely dominant again.

Vxheous, on 24 June 2021 - 08:20 PM, said:

Stop trying to remove playstyles that you don't like.

But thats exactly what Cauldron does. Nerfing streaks/atms into oblivion for example. Now you have lights running amok that tank more firepower than any assault. Granted its because people cant aim properly but those lower skill weapons helped mitigate the fact half your team cant aim.

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2021 - 11:42 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

The Cauldron is actually making the investment of a lot of tonnage into JJs worthwhile and more balanced across weight classes which it currently is not.

We are not removing safeguards and we are not trying to make it the most dominant.

With JJ changes are not bringing back the poptarting dragon slayer days.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 24 June 2021 - 11:27 PM, said:

The Cauldron is actually making the investment of a lot of tonnage into JJs worthwhile and more balanced across weight classes which it currently is not.

Yeah but thats not what im seeing. Im seeing jumpjets getting buffed across the board for every single mech.

Its not just selective buffs to the mechs that need them the most.

Youre buffing a lot of top tier mechs that really dont need more buffs.

Do top tier mechs like the triple erppc Summoner really need 25% better jumpjets? Theyre already top tier as is.

I certainly have no issue with buffing jumpjets on like a direwolf. But buffing already top tier mechs like the summoner is somewhat alarming to me. When you keep buffing top tier mechs repeatedly... thats the path that leads back to poptarting.


I wouldve liked to see Cauldron take a different approach and done the jumpjet buffs through the existing jumpjet skill tree. Theres already a jumpjet skill tree afterall. It just needs some tweaking so its actually worth putting points into.Id probably consider putting points into the jumpjet skill tree with certain mechs if the useless nodes were removed and the useful nodes gave x2 or x3 the current benefits. But at least then thered be a tradeoff for better jumpjets that would come out of other skill trees. And then in addition to the fixed jumpjet skill tree give jumpjet quirks to mechs like the executioner that still need a little extra to make up for the locked jumpjets.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 03:23 AM.

[Bud Crue]

justcallme A S H, on 24 June 2021 - 11:27 PM, said:

With JJ changes are not bringing back the poptarting dragon slayer days.

I for one wouldn't mind such a return so much. The current 2HPPC, AC10 build in a slow XL assault doesn't do much these days. Plus, the thing still needs an XL to do the PPC/Gauss poptart of old, and we now have ghost heat that we didn't have before. Just sayin, that if you did bring back JJ's to the level of "poptarting dragon slayer days", now, it wouldn't be as big a deal as some are asserting.

[Xhaleon]

justcallme A S H, on 24 June 2021 - 11:27 PM, said:

We are not removing safeguards and we are not trying to make it the most dominant.

I think the current discussion here is whether the existing safeguards are enough to counteract the new changes. I won't be accusing the Cauldron of doing things maliciously, but there's the old saying of road to hell, good intentions, you know the drill.

Will the current aim shake (really its just a single fixed angle offset applied to all weapons) be enough to counteract the new jump height of bigger mechs that can carry the really scary long range loadouts? Maybe the answer to that might only be seen after going live with it. Better than Test Server-ing for months at a time anyway.

Getting back JJs into something genuinely gamechanging like they're supposed to be is something I want, but I also don't want its reintroduction to be botched and then kneejerked into a mediocre spot.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 24 June 2021 - 11:46 PM, said:

Yeah but thats not what im seeing. Im seeing jumpjets getting buffed across the board for every single mech.

Its not just selective buffs to the mechs that need them the most.

Youre buffing a lot of top tier mechs that really dont need more buffs.

Do top tier mechs like the triple erppc Summoner really need 25% better jumpjets? Theyre already top tier as is.

I certainly have no issue with buffing jumpjets on like a direwolf. But buffing already top tier mechs like the summoner is somewhat alarming to me. When you keep buffing top tier mechs repeatedly... thats the path that leads back to poptarting.


I wouldve liked to see Cauldron take a different approach and done the jumpjet buffs through the existing jumpjet skill tree. Theres already a jumpjet skill tree afterall. It just needs some tweaking so its actually worth putting points into.Id probably consider putting points into the jumpjet skill tree with certain mechs if the useless nodes were removed and the useful nodes gave x2 or x3 the current benefits. But at least then thered be a tradeoff for better jumpjets that would come out of other skill trees. And then in addition to the fixed jumpjet skill tree give jumpjet quirks to mechs like the executioner that still need a little extra to make up for the locked jumpjets.

And if the cauldron somehow locked your brawlers behind the skill tree you'd be here screaming bloody murder.

Nobody takes you seriously when you're the chairman of the "removing things khobai doesnt like right away" committee".

[justcallme A S H]

Xhaleon, on 25 June 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

I think the current discussion here is whether the existing safeguards are enough to counteract the new changes. I won't be accusing the Cauldron of doing things maliciously, but there's the old saying of road to hell, good intentions, you know the drill.

Will the current aim shake (really its just a single fixed angle offset applied to all weapons) be enough to counteract the new jump height of bigger mechs that can carry the really scary long range loadouts? Maybe the answer to that might only be seen after going live with it. Better than Test Server-ing for months at a time anyway.

Getting back JJs into something genuinely gamechanging like they're supposed to be is something I want, but I also don't want its reintroduction to be botched and then kneejerked into a mediocre spot.

Aim shake is enough while burning.

The thrust isn't high, you need to long burn to get to higher highs, it's not as if you're flying up in an Assault.

Navid made a few videos and posted on a couple discords earlier. If he doesn't post here first I'll share them tomorrow when I get up. The JJs allow Assaults with 8T of JJ for example, to get to higher areas yes, however the thrust isn't instant, it actually takes quite a while to get there.

It doesn't look unbalanced seeing it in-game. Of course like some things it's just gotta be played and just like weapons if it's too much, to little or anything it can be altered. This isn't a dump it and run scenario with anything that's being done. There is constant reassessment going on almost daily within the Cauldron.

[Bud Crue]

I see this debate as: "if jump jets that provide decent performance when significant tonnage is dedicated are allowed to return, then that will result in a return to a one-sided poptart meta of old that will ruin the game"...or thereabouts.

For those of you who see it that way (or thereabouts) I think you ought to provide specific builds that you believe will be impactful or otherwise a detriment to game play. Be it the old ERPPC/Gauss combos of old (which will still have ghost heat even if they can suddenly jump again) or whatever, tell us what you are afraid of with some specificity. Because I honestly can't think of any old builds that will be more impactful than current poptarts (such as 3 ERPPC Veagles for example) should they suddenly make a return.

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 June 2021 - 05:19 AM.

[1453 R]

That's been my stance throughout this whole ridiculous Khobargument™ - no pile of Fatness which regains the ability to make meaningful jumps to access terrain is going to be better at the job of tarting pops than the Veagle anyways. Poptarts have an extremely limited engagement window at the top of their pop - there's only so much firepower one can reasonably squeeze into that window, and frankly three peeps is just about the ceiling of it. Yes, you could replace a peep with a Gauss, or maybe a couple of AC/5s, or whatever - but that roughly thirtyish damage at the top of the pop is more or less the height of what one can do with a poptart.

The Vapor Eagle already does that. With jump quirks and enough jets to get a good, solid burn, or even to tart a pop twice in a row if it absolutely has to. What could other 'Mechs take that would hit harder? The only thing I can think of is somebody trying to dual Goose with dual peeps sidecar'd, and managing that to avoid a devastating ghost heat spike would defang a lot of the 'Pop' in poptart. That and I think only 90+ tonners can even do it, and none of the 'Mechs that can (Asp? Whale? maybe a Muck-Tew?) have the ability to mount enough jets to pop effectively anyways.

Where is this assault tart bogeyman everybody (and by 'everybody' I mean Khobai) is so afraid of?

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 05:29 AM, said:

That's been my stance throughout this whole ridiculous Khobargument™ - no pile of Fatness which regains the ability to make meaningful jumps to access terrain is going to be better at the job of tarting pops than the Veagle anyways. Poptarts have an extremely limited engagement window at the top of their pop - there's only so much firepower one can reasonably squeeze into that window, and frankly three peeps is just about the ceiling of it. Yes, you could replace a peep with a Gauss, or maybe a couple of AC/5s, or whatever - but that roughly thirtyish damage at the top of the pop is more or less the height of what one can do with a poptart.

The Vapor Eagle already does that. With jump quirks and enough jets to get a good, solid burn, or even to tart a pop twice in a row if it absolutely has to. What could other 'Mechs take that would hit harder? The only thing I can think of is somebody trying to dual Goose with dual peeps sidecar'd, and managing that to avoid a devastating ghost heat spike would defang a lot of the 'Pop' in poptart. That and I think only 90+ tonners can even do it, and none of the 'Mechs that can (Asp? Whale? maybe a Muck-Tew?) have the ability to mount enough jets to pop effectively anyways.

Where is this assault tart bogeyman everybody (and by 'everybody' I mean Khobai) is so afraid of?

It's simply a play style he doesn't enjoy, so he doesn't think it should be in the game at all. I'm quite certain its that myopic.

[1453 R]

Even if that's true, the playstyle under debate here is already in the game. Vapor Eagles, and to a lesser extent Summoners, already do it. They don't rule the roost. Other 'Mechs deal with them just fine. Making jump jets not suck won't "bring back" poptarting - poptarting never left. So why resist making cool equipment cool again?

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 06:50 AM, said:

Even if that's true, the playstyle under debate here is already in the game. Vapor Eagles, and to a lesser extent Summoners, already do it. They don't rule the roost. Other 'Mechs deal with them just fine. Making jump jets not suck won't "bring back" poptarting - poptarting never left. So why resist making cool equipment cool again?

what do you mean they dont rule the roost? theyre both recognized as top tier mechs.

top tier mechs dont need more buffs.

also the poptarting we have now is nothing like the poptarting we used to have. there used to be no chargeup on gauss, faster cooldown on gauss, no reticle shake when jumpjetting, no ghost heat linkage on ppc/gauss, and stronger jumpjets. the vapor eagle is nothing like the gauss poptarts that used to plague the game because the vapor eagle is at least somewhat balanced by the fact it generates tremendous amounts of heat.

pbiggz, on 25 June 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

It's simply a play style he doesn't enjoy, so he doesn't think it should be in the game at all. I'm quite certain its that myopic.

that makes no sense. im not trying to remove any playstyle that currently exists.

im trying to prevent top tier mechs from getting buffed even more.

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 06:50 AM, said:

Where is this assault tart bogeyman everybody (and by 'everybody' I mean Khobai) is so afraid of?

Exactly. Where is it? Its nowhere to be found precisely because PGI nerfed assault jumpjets so it wouldnt exist.

If you start buffing assault jumpjets it will exist.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 07:20 AM.

[1453 R]

Top tier 'Mechs, yes.

Oppressive forces in the meta whose sheer dominance strangles and destroys all other competitors? Not even slightly.

There's plenty of ways to deal with tarts in the modern era. Poptarts in the Dragon Slayer days were oppressive because the 'Mechs they preyed upon were slower and less well armed. The Dragon Slayer was a god among robits because something going 70kph with a 40-damage alpha was considered doing Pretty Durn Well, and anything that did better had to make severe sacrifices.

These days I can get a Stormcrow going 100kph with damage measured in torsos per alpha if I forego cooling. Or I can build a Linebacker going the same speeds with absurd durability and enough pulse lasers to turn a Dragon Slayer into metal confetti, with adequate cooling. Poptarts simply don't have the ability to deny space as effectively as they used to; it's easier by far to rush them down and deal with them. It's why hillhumping peekers are generally considered more effective where possible - they can throw out more damage than a poptart and are often better at resisting pressure. A Muck-Tew dakkaboat will see your poptart and raise you "PULL!" At the level people like Khobai should be playing at, jumping does not preclude one from return fire, especially the second or beyond time.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 07:19 AM, said:

Top tier 'Mechs, yes.

again top tier mechs dont need to be buffed.

buff the lower tier mechs. not the top tier ones. thats how you balance mechs.

[Wid1046]

Bud Crue, on 25 June 2021 - 05:18 AM, said:

I see this debate as: "if jump jets that provide decent performance when significant tonnage is dedicated are allowed to return, then that will result in a return to a one-sided poptart meta of old that will ruin the game"...or thereabouts.
[redacted]

There are more than two groups of opinions in this thread and it looks like you've grouped a couple sets of opinions together. As I see it there are four main groups:
1) Group 1 thinks that Navid's proposal is great as is and should be implemented that way.
2) Group 2 wants things to stay the same.
3) Group 3 wants Navid's proposal to make their preferred weight class have the best jump jets.
4) Group 4 thinks that Navid's proposal is better than what we have, but while it brings some utility it doesn't really bring as much 'fun' as they'd like and are trying to find ways to further buff jump jets without making them overpowered.

Group 2 and Group 4 are very different.

The jump jet shake ideas aren't coming from people who want to nerf jump jets (although the idea has been co-opted by Khobai to wreck jump jets, but he appears to be on his own), they're coming from people who want jump jets to be much more fast and powerful without being broken. Navid's proposal is an improvement and won't wreck anything, but it isn't as fun as having jump jets be twice as fast (for example) and jump even higher. If the Executioner for instance could blast off twice as fast and twice as high, that would be hilariously fun, but it would also allow it to pop-tart far better than Navid's proposal. This is why people are talking about having screen-shake last for a half-second or so after pop-tarting; to balance out even better jump jets. With a period of screen-shake after you let go of the jump jets you'd still be able to pop-tart, you'd just have to jump a bit higher to have enough hang time to shoot. You'd go up faster, but with the delay due to screen-shake people could still return fire. How long the screen-shake would last could be balanced to make it so that there would still be about as much time for enemies to return fire on a pop-tarting mech as there is now.

There was discussion of making screen-shake last until the mech hit the ground, but I think that was mostly a trade-off people were willing to make in exchange for uber-powerful jump-jets and they'd be just as happy with the half-second or so idea if it means mechs can return fire to pop-tarting mechs for about as much time as they would in Navid's proposal.

Edit: if people who were arguing for the screen-shake to last until the mech hits the ground aren't happy with the half-second or so of extra screen-shake please correct me. That was my interpretation, but I don't want to put words into people's mouths.

Edited by Wid1046, 25 June 2021 - 07:34 AM.

[1453 R]

THEY ARE BUFFING LOWER TIER 'MECHS, YOU FLAMING SO-AND-SO! THAT'S WHAT FIXING JUMP JETS DOES!

[Redacted]

Jump jets ARE NOT WORTH THEIR WEIGHT(!!!) on ANYTHING right now! Even the top ******* tier meta poptart Veagle - this thing, right here, pulled right from the website! - takes only THREE jets, not its full complement of six! Anything that CAN take fewer jets DOES take fewer jets because jump jets DO NOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE RETURNS FOR THEIR WEIGHT, ON ANYTHING!

Why is that, Khobai? Why do you think it's okay for jump jets to be so terrible that nobody ever takes more than ONE on something if they have any remote choice, or maybe three if they're trying to poptart? [Redacted]

What sounds easier/more likely to happen to you, [Redacted] - improving baseline jump jet performance for EVERYTHING and then whacking the handful of too-good outliers with a stick later during the quirks pass, or implementing specific "this is underperforming, let's fix it" quirks on HUNDREDS OF JUMP-CAPABLE CHASSIS not named Summoner or Vapor Eagle?

[Redacted]

Edited by Armchair General, 25 June 2021 - 09:18 AM.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 07:32 AM, said:

THEY ARE BUFFING LOWER TIER 'MECHS,

No because if you buff every mech in the game equally you are not changing the disparity between lower tier mechs and higher tier mechs.

Whereas if you ONLY buff lower tier mechs, and dont buff higher tier mechs, the lower tier mechs actually get better in comparison. That closes the disparity gap.

That is why blanket buffs are a terrible idea because top tier mechs with jumpjets do not need to be better relative to lower tier mechs without jumpjets. They are already top tier as is. They dont need to be top tier plus.

Again a better way to buff jumpjets would be a targetted approach using jumpjet quirks. Because then you can buff the lower tier mechs that need jumpjet buffs while specifically avoiding buffing the top tier mechs further.

Also they should buff the jumpjet skill tree so its actually worth putting points into. The jumpjet tree is what PGI intended players to use if they wanted better jumpjets. Its fair because it requires a tradeoff in other skill trees. Unfortunately the jumpjet tree just isnt worth the tradeoff at the moment and needs some buffs to make it actually worthwhile. But its a fairly easy thing to change.

Those are better ways to fix jumpjets that avoid the issue of making top tier mechs better.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 07:59 AM.