164 replies to this topic

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 03:41 AM, said:

Its not a matter of one side making mistakes. Its a matter of what advantages each side starts the game with. Snipers more often than not start with more advantages than brawlers.

That is only natural. Since most engagements start with adversaries in a distance, the sniper always starts in his preferred engagement range. It's the brawler's task to overcome this distance with his battle capability mostly intact to reach his own preferred engagement range. That's what cover and suppressive fire is for.

[Khobai]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 29 June 2021 - 03:53 AM, said:

That is only natural. Since most engagements start with adversaries in a distance, the sniper always starts in his preferred engagement range. It's the brawler's task to overcome this distance with his battle capability mostly intact to reach his own preferred engagement range. That's what cover and suppressive fire is for.

That is exactly the point ive been making. Brawlers have to try harder to achieve the same results.

[MechNexus]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 03:59 AM, said:

That is exactly the point ive been making. Brawlers have to try harder to achieve the same results.

I've said numerous times in other threads that this is because PGI's prior map design has been outright hostile to brawlers, featuring long open spaces to cross with minimal viable cover, and because effective brawling requires a co-ordinated push which pugs aren't likely to do. The reworked polar has fixed the former, and the latter is something you can't really help. However, in comp and faction play, brawling is doing just fine and is as strong as ever.

[Gagis]

Do keep in mind that long range mechs have been pretty much exclusively used in Faction Play and competitive lobby matches, since quick play offers very VERY limited opportunities for long range play.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 03:59 AM, said:

That is exactly the point ive been making. Brawlers have to try harder to achieve the same results.

I agree. It definitely isn't a case of just Press W across the open until you're in brawl range or just rotate until you catch up to something.

And that is exactly how it should be. Brawlers bringing very focused, tight weapons, generally with great defensive or offensive quirks have to actually work a little bit for their supper now as opposed to having it delivered on a red tuffet as Ranged mechs quite literally were too weak.

Oh the humanity it require some basic game sense now to brawl.

[1453 R]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 03:59 AM, said:

That is exactly the point ive been making. Brawlers have to try harder to achieve the same results.

So you believe brawlers shouldn't have to close with their targets? That they should just get their sub-200 meter engagements for free? Just drop people into a Smash brothers match, all Final Destination No Items tourney play style?

Allow me to remind you, while you're sitting there bawling about how brawlers just have it oh so unfair having to get close to their enemies before they auto-win, that a brawling 'Mech that gets close to a sniper with any level of combat effectiveness left wins by default. The sniper does not get to chase the brawler away, it does not get to escape and reposition, it does not get to try again in a minute or two. An equivalent-weight brawler getting into reach of a sniper eliminates the sniper, End Sentence.

Snipers don't see brawlers as a bunch of poor unfortunate rejects too behind the times to know when to switch playstyles. Snipers see brawlers as "OH GOD MICHAEL MEYERS IS COMING AFTER ME WITH A CHAINSAW SHOOT HIM SHOOT HIM SHOOT HIM SHOOOOOT HIM". Canny brawlers will use cover and unusual approach angles to get within Flaying-Shack reach of their victims, just like canny snipers will try to stick to areas with unobstructed sightlines and within easy defensive reach of the rest of their team.

You're being beyond ridiculous, dude. No, brawlers don't get handed their wins on a complimentary platter. Neither do snipers - on every map except Hibernal Rift, the teams start far enough away from each other that neither can see each other, and brawlers can choose their lines of engagement. Nobody ever does because Puglandians gonna Puglandia and nobody ever does anything but rush to the same-*** ground in the middle and then faff off until they all die, but that doesn't mean brawlers can't decide their approach. No sniper has ever instagibbed a brawler from 800+ meters - you WILL know where the long-range 'Mechs are before you become combat ineffective. You can go "Oh woe is me they're in a good sniping point however shall I win I simply can't I must feed myself to the snipers and then complain about brawling being bad on the forums"...or you can go "All right. How do I best try and dig those filthy freebirth scum out of their hole?"

One of those is better for your gameplay experience than the other, Khobes.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 29 June 2021 - 06:49 AM, said:

So you believe brawlers shouldn't have to close with their targets?

of course brawlers should have to close with their targets.

I dont think snipers should be able to kill them as easily before they close though.

other people have already pointed out the problem: its the maps. they do a poor job of giving brawlers cover they can actually use to close the distance. a lot of the cover is only big enough for smaller mechs. especially on maps like canyon the rocks towards the center dont give proper cover for bigger mechs.

I definitely think lower TTK helps snipers and hurts brawlers too. Thats the only blame I would put on Cauldron for lowering TTK. Everything else is map related.

1453 R, on 29 June 2021 - 06:49 AM, said:

Snipers see brawlers as "OH GOD MICHAEL MEYERS IS COMING AFTER ME WITH A CHAINSAW SHOOT HIM SHOOT HIM SHOOT HIM SHOOOOOT HIM"

nah because theyre usually cored out by the time they reach you and you just pop them in one alpha.

its rare that a brawler actually reaches you with full health. thats the only time theyre scary. but when that happens its usually because they spent first half of the game hiding and doing absolutely nothing in which case their team is likely in a losing situation anyway. I mean that does happen all the time though. you see brawlers that are completely pinned down not able to do anything and it costs their team the game.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 07:16 AM.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

of course brawlers should have to close with their targets.

I dont think snipers should be able to kill them as easily before they close.



nah because usually theyre core out by the time they reach you and you just pop them in one alpha.

usually they core you out.

Snipers will only kill you easily if you do not approach them properly. The overwhelming majority of maps in this game have plenty of ways for you to do this. I do it all the time in Tier 1 where all the scary rude meta tryhards play. I think honestly you're mistaking a personal refusal to learn how to do this with the inability to do it at all.

[1453 R]

Here. Allow me to, as they say, Fix This For You:

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

of course brawlers should have to close with their targets.

I dont think snipers should be able to deal any meaningful or significant damage to them before they close though.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

of course brawlers should have to close with their targets.

I dont think snipers should be able to kill them as easily before they close though.

other people have already pointed out the problem: its the maps. they do a poor job of giving brawlers cover they can actually use to close the distance. a lot of the cover is only big enough for smaller mechs. especially on maps like canyon the rocks towards the center dont give proper cover for bigger mechs.



nah because theyre usually cored out by the time they reach you and you just pop them in one alpha.

its rare that a brawler actually reaches you with full health. thats the only time theyre scary. but it almost never happens unless they spend the first half of the game hiding and doing absolutely nothing in which case their team is likely in a losing situation anyway. I mean that does happen all the time though. you see brawlers that are completely pinned down not able to do anything and it costs their team the game.

If you try to close with a sniper over open territory you'll lose and you're supposed to, because you let them snipe you.

You don't seem to understand that.

Brawling is as much about positioning and trigger discipline as it is about weapons and builds. You have to force people to trade with you at sub-200 meter ranges where your armour and weapons will carry the day. That means constant repositioning, laying in wait, having your team support you by channeling engagements into places where you can take advantage, so on so forth. If you honestly think you have to crest the hill and charge into an enemy line like a 17th century cavalry charge just to even start the brawl, you have no idea how to brawl. Not even in the heyday of the atlas DDC brawlers did that happen.

You are just consistently proving you don't understand this game, or what your talking about.

[Khobai]

pbiggz, on 29 June 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

If you try to close with a sniper over open territory you'll lose and you're supposed to, because you let them snipe you.

No i understand that

What you dont seem to understand is that some maps dont give you a choice.

Again a lot of maps dont have cover that brawlers can conveniently leapfrog between to close the distance. Some of the maps are just designed so you have to cross a wide open area in order to get into brawling range.

The center of Terra therma is a good example of that. Being a brawler on terra therma sucks. You basically have to hide until enough enemy mechs are dead that you can close the distance. But by then the game has almost always been decided one way or another anyway.

Thats one of the biggest reasons sniping/poking are stronger playstyles because you can affect the game immediately from the onset. You dont need to wait for specific circumstances or a timing window to close the distance in order to reach peak effectiveness.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2021 - 07:27 AM.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 07:18 AM, said:

No i understand that

What you dont seem to understand is that some maps dont give you a choice.

this is false. The only one that was really an issue was old Polar

you can credibly brawl even on something like Alpine Peaks. you, specifically, just do not know how to, so you pretend it is impossible to make yourself feel better

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 07:18 AM, said:

No i understand that

What you dont seem to understand is that some maps dont give you a choice.

Please provide examples

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 07:18 AM, said:

Again a lot of maps dont have cover that brawlers can conveniently leapfrog between to close the distance. Some of the maps are just designed so you have to cross a wide open area in order to get into brawling range.

Every map has open space. If you think you have to wade across it your team isn't supporting you, or the enemy team is in a location that won't let you force a favourable engagement. Brawling is a specialist playstyle, its only effective in certain situations.

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 07:18 AM, said:

The center of Terra therma is a good example of that. Being a brawler on terra therma sucks. You basically have to hide until enough enemy mechs are dead that you can close the distance. But by then the game has almost always been decided one way or another anyway.

The center of Terra Therma is a nasty killbox for everyone. Brawlers are not uniquely punished here. If you are receiving support from your team, you'll get some good close range trades. If your team just wants to poke or nascar you'll probably have a bad time, and that's just how matches play sometimes. Without real objectives or respawns, specialists sometimes just don't find the situation they need to perform. This is not a grounds to buff them, or nerf their counterplays, at least, not in a vacuum, and your readiness to carry out those measures demonstrates a lack of understanding of the finer points of the balance process.

Khobai, on 29 June 2021 - 07:18 AM, said:

Thats one of the biggest reasons sniping/poking are stronger playstyles because you can affect the game immediately from the onset. You dont need to wait for specific circumstances or a timing window to close the distance in order to reach peak effectiveness.

You seem to conflate medium ranged skirmishers with snipers. The center of Terra Therma is altogether too small for snipers, who usually perform best at ranges outside of 700 meters, where said skirmishers can't really reach them. You'll never see the ER Large Laser direwolf microwaving people inside of the caldera on that map because engagements are usually in the 400-600 meter range and the direwolf doesn't really handle return fire well.

But, without meaning to, you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Skirmishers are very flexible. That IS their competitive advantage. They also rarely pack 100+ point alphas and enough armor to roll several alphas of a similar size because they arent specialized for face to face combat at sub-200 meter ranges with no options for escape or cover. Skirmishing is a generalist role. As others have said here, about 60% effective, 90% of the time. Brawling promises much higher damage efficiency and kill potential if you can force people to engage on your terms, an endeavour that requires not just personal discipline and skill, but also cooperation from your team, and a good bit of luck. Do you know what that means? It means its harder to play. It's supposed to be. Just because you have trouble playing it doesn't mean it's underpowered, or that sniping/skirmishing is overpowered, and you are consistently failing to engage in any degree of introspection regarding this.

Edited by pbiggz, 29 June 2021 - 08:05 AM.

[Castigatus]

Khobai, I'm just going to put this very simply.

You need to stop claiming brawling is inherently weaker than other specialised playstyles, it isn't true, it's blatantly obvious it isn't true, and it's also blatantly obvious from the statements you've made that you dislike it because you're bad at it. Now if you were simply willing to say 'I don't like brawlers because I'm not good at that playstyle, therefore I avoid playing them', rather than relentlessly bending the truth and misrepresenting things so you can try and claim its anything other than that, you would be getting a hell of a lot less heat from pretty much everyone whos been criticising you, including me.

You don't understand how brawling works to begin with, you don't understand the tactics available to brawlers who know what they're doing both in game skills and proper map knowledge, and you very obviously don't understand when to stop digging and admit you were wrong about all of it.

No one is saying you can't have the opinions you do, and from your comments elsewhere you have plenty of them, but when your response to being challenged on them is to start spouting misinformation, moving goalposts during a conversation by constantly editing posts, or accusing the Cauldron of bias towards certain mechs and playstyles with zero supporting evidence, is it any wonder people are getting a bit tired of dealing with you?

Here, let me give you an example.

I don't play snipers, I've had very little success with them when I have and I find the playstyle very unsatisfying compared to a mid-range or brawling setup. I also have trouble spotting targets, reacting quickly enough, and judging projectile travel times when firing at very long range. But that doesn't mean I want sniping not to be part of the game or that I don't understand how to be a good sniper, hell I had a game on Tourmaline last night where someone on the other team put on a masterclass on how to be an effective sniper at our expense and I learned a lot from it. It's my skills and execution that are lacking not the features of the playstyle itself.

See how easy that was?

Now you try, but please also try and be honest about it.

[Thorqemada]

Still there is no answer why the brawling type of participant in a mechfight is only allowed to be good at his brawling range which is mostly the 270m range bracket while the sniper type of participant is good with at any range up to the maximum weapon range of his weapons of choice.

One cleary has to overcome the drawbacks of his playstyle while the other has no drawback to bear - is that good gameplay???

[Castigatus]

Really dude, this has been explained multiple times now??

You know what the snipers weakness is, its if their opponent closes range they are at a huge disadvantage and are very likely to die. Mid-range and brawler builds massively out dps snipers in their preferred range brackets, thats the weakness.

Is that clear enough for you?

[1453 R]

The answer, Thorqe, is that sniper weapons are terrible at all ranges. Sniping weapons are hot, heavy, slow, and unwieldy. They work at sniper distances specifically because the cold, fast, snappy weapons everybody else likes literally cannot reach that far, so sniper weapons win at sniping ranges by default. Press close to a sniper with AC/20s, massed medium/small lasers, SRMs, or rotaries and they cannot defeat your superior DPS and DPH both.

As for you, Khobes? The answer to "this map doesn't have enough cover to let me close in and brawl! DX" is "have you tried taking a detour?" Because no, you don't get to charge across the shortest distance to the enemy. Sometimes you have to take a circuitous route and commit to a long flank that may get you killed if you do it wrong. That is specifically what people mean when they say "brawlers have to work for it". That or exercising the patience to wait for the icebergs to collide and for teams to close in for a final bloodbowl, with the assumption that they'll have to do an inordinate amount of heavy lifting at that point to make up for spending the first half of the game chickendicking. Same as the sniper is expected to do a disproportionate amount of work in the first half of the game to make up for hiding behind a rock and shutting down in fear once the brawl starts.

Don't like that? Don't play a brawler, or a sniper. Play the midrange builds that sacrifice being exceptional at either range in exchange for being decent at as many ranges as possible.

[pbiggz]

Thorqemada, on 29 June 2021 - 08:27 AM, said:

Still there is no answer why the brawling type of participant in a mechfight is only allowed to be good at his brawling range which is mostly the 270m range bracket while the sniper type of participant is good with at any range up to the maximum weapon range of his weapons of choice.

One cleary has to overcome the drawbacks of his playstyle while the other has no drawback to bear - is that good gameplay???

If you trap one in a close quarters encounter they basically have no recourse. 8 ER large lasers do some damage, but a double LBX triple snub build on a victor or an annihilator will wipe the floor unless you really can't aim. You know that, so stop pretending sniping is some kind of omnipresent ultrastrategy, because creating boogeymen is not a substitute for a real argument.

[pattonesque]

Thorqemada, on 29 June 2021 - 08:27 AM, said:

Still there is no answer why the brawling type of participant in a mechfight is only allowed to be good at his brawling range which is mostly the 270m range bracket while the sniper type of participant is good with at any range up to the maximum weapon range of his weapons of choice.

One cleary has to overcome the drawbacks of his playstyle while the other has no drawback to bear - is that good gameplay???

Sniper weapons work anywhere from their maximum range down. A CERPPC will do just as much damage at 900m as it does at 10m. This range is significantly longer than the brawler's, so it has the advantage outside of 300m or so.

Sniper weapons going up against brawl weapons at a brawl weapon's maximum range are at an extreme disadvantage because their heat is significantly higher and cooldowns tend to be longer. a good sniper will still do damage to a brawler at close range, but the brawler will tear the sniper apart assuming all else is equal.