282 replies to this topic

[BLOODREDSIN]

FupDup, on 18 September 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

Straight from Sarna:

It's canon.

There could be a valid argument made for the crit-seeking part of MGs being annoying and crappy design (should just be an anti-armor weapon like everything else, screw crits), but at the end of the day MGs are supposed to pose a threat to mechs. They always did the same damage to mech armor as an AC/2 in Tabletop and they existed in the board game before infantry were even added.

It's especially telling when you compare them to Mech Rifles, which are meant to be analogous to modern-day tank cannons. Mech Rifles suffer a penalty against mech armor (the 3-ton Light Rifle's shots literally bounce off mech armor harmlessly) while MGs do not, because MGs are just that badass.

No its not cannon, not the way it operates in this game. And that one sentence is not an all inclusive right for Piranhas to take on any mech in battletech and be a threat. You don't seriously expect me to believe you think a Pir should be able to eviscerate any mech in this game just cause one sentence on Sarna site (which can be edited by anyone anytime) embellished the hell out of this mechs capabilities. This mech was primarily used for culling infantry. Here's some of what you omitted:

They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles

What i see here is their primary role and the fact they are supposed to be dealing with heat issues using the lasers and they should be short of ammo as it clearly states they must stay near supply lines. Well our piranhas don't have any of those challenges and correct me if i am wrong but aren't they handing out negative heat and free ammo bonuses, armor bonuses, structure bonuses like candy to some of these chassis not to mention even more mobility? That is not consistent with what i am reading on Sarna. Also i want to point out that it says they are most deadly against unarmored infantry - implying they have more issue with armored targets. How much more armor does a Mech have as opposed to an armored infantry soldier?

Machine guns,i do not feel, are supposed to be the threat you think they should be. They are merely backup weapons. Always have been.The ac2 mgun thing from tabletop is a prime example of why you dont try to convert TT to video game exactly with no compromise. The Mech Rifle Mgun thing you describe is nothing more than poor forethought in the beginning. Just as your example of mguns in the game before infantry.

Real mech titles that came before MWO never accounted for your percieved rightful power of the mighty Mgun. Nor did they allow light mechs to get away with the grief style gameplay that is toxic to this community and to this game like MWO does either. How do you explain any of that?

You see, there was already an established formula for this gameplay type. Never should have deviated from it.

[BLOODREDSIN]

Dont LRM me please, on 18 September 2021 - 03:00 PM, said:

Are you usually losing to light mechs 1v1? Unless you're an Atlas in a tight room it shouldn't be a problem.... You know 1 or 2 shots from an AC/20 pretty much ruins them, right? A good srm blast... Half a laser burn from a laser vomit... Any gauss rifle?

https://youtu.be/gmX6sTNu2Wo

https://youtu.be/gmX6sTNu2Wo

Nope. No one said anything about that except your buddies trying to push another false narrative. Never said anything about my aiming ... the discussion is centered on something entirely different. Have a re-read.

[Scout Derek]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 05:08 PM, said:

No its not cannon, not the way it operates in this game. And that one sentence is not an all inclusive right for Piranhas to take on any mech in battletech and be a threat. You don't seriously expect me to believe you think a Pir should be able to eviscerate any mech in this game just cause one sentence on Sarna site (which can be edited by anyone anytime) embellished the hell out of this mechs capabilities. This mech was primarily used for culling infantry. Here's some of what you omitted:

They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles

What i see here is their primary role and the fact they are supposed to be dealing with heat issues using the lasers and they should be short of ammo as it clearly states they must stay near supply lines. Well our piranhas don't have any of those challenges and correct me if i am wrong but aren't they handing out negative heat and free ammo bonuses, armor bonuses, structure bonuses like candy to some of these chassis not to mention even more mobility? That is not consistent with what i am reading on Sarna. Also i want to point out that it says they are most deadly against unarmored infantry - implying they have more issue with armored targets. How much more armor does a Mech have as opposed to an armored infantry soldier?

Machine guns,i do not feel, are supposed to be the threat you think they should be. They are merely backup weapons. Always have been.The ac2 mgun thing from tabletop is a prime example of why you dont try to convert TT to video game exactly with no compromise. The Mech Rifle Mgun thing you describe is nothing more than poor forethought in the beginning. Just as your example of mguns in the game before infantry.

Real mech titles that came before MWO never accounted for your percieved rightful power of the mighty Mgun. Nor did they allow light mechs to get away with the grief style gameplay that is toxic to this community and to this game like MWO does either. How do you explain any of that?

You see, there was already an established formula for this gameplay type. Never should have deviated from it.

I think you've been playing PVE too long, it's time to learn about the real world in this game, known as PVP.

[pattonesque]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 05:16 PM, said:

Nope. No one said anything about that except your buddies trying to push another false narrative. Never said anything about my aiming ... the discussion is centered on something entirely different. Have a re-read.

if you're having trouble killing light mechs one-on-one, particularly a Pirahna, which only requires one to three alphas from a well-built mech to take a component, your aiming is likely the problem. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this but if you insist on pretending killing Pirahnas is some well-guarded tryhard secret then you're never gonna figure it out.

[LordNothing]

Brauer, on 18 September 2021 - 04:58 PM, said:

No, you are overthinking this for hitscan weapons. Hitscan weapons are pretty simple. You aim where you want the damage applied, the damage gets applied. Input latency is a thing, but I don't find it to matter in any appreciable way here.

As I already said any weapon with a projectile you may need to lead depending on velocity and range.

perhaps. but i have experience in game physics.

human reaction time is between 150 and 300ms. low latency screens and mice can be as low as 10ms. so lets assume good hardware and lower end human reaction time, a total of 180ms. a stock piranha goes 145.8kph or 40.5 m/s. that represents a total movement of 7.29 meters in the time it takes you to see the shot and tell your finger what to do, and that signal getting to the computer. this number is going to be higher if you are slow or have slow hardware.

physics in games is not fluid, its done in discreet steps. server tick rate is 30fps (i think, someone mentioned a tick rate of 0.11 or 30 per second, in the same post, and those numbers do not compute as 1/30 is 0.033 or 33ms), so we can assume several server ticks have happened between crosshair line up and actual firing. whether or not the server agrees with your data is up to the server.

to put this in perspective were still talking difference between good aiming and great aiming. for most players, yea point and click adventure game.

hsr only cares about the timestamp of the impact and the weapon vector and origin for hitscan (velocity vector and current position for projectiles), it then rewinds the animation state to account for the offset before looking at the collision in more detail to figure out what hit where. you still are the one that decides where those are in space at what time.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 September 2021 - 05:32 PM.

[BLOODREDSIN]

pattonesque, on 18 September 2021 - 03:00 PM, said:

You know what’s interesting, is that if you have a properly built medium, heavy, or assault mech and you’re using it properly, you will very easily be able to take on any light mech that steps to you one on one, outside of LRM boats who trade that for the ability to indirectly fire You don’t seem to have this experience when playing larger mechs. Why?

Thanks for stating the obvious randomly in reply to something completely different.

[The6thMessenger]

That's a lot of hoopla for what is basically "Learn to aim, and shoot them dead".

[Commoners]

Tracking a target with hitscan weapons doesn't require leading it, nor is it an exercise involving reactions. It's just coordination. Shooting a target quickly peeking over a ridge or around a corner at different places would involve reactions.

Also lmao at bloodredsin's paranoia-infused rant screaming about communists, accusing people of being in a cabal of comp players, and saying that lights are impossible to be viable against assaults in a 1v1 in other game media of the franchise.

Someone already mentioned how easily in tabletop a jenner can eat an atlas's buttock to cook off its ammo and kill it just by wheeling around it, but that doesn't even mention how souped up all of these mechs are that we're using. I totally agree that 1v1 a light will die ignobly to an assault in stock mechs with equally skilled pilots, but that's not what's happening here. We're all in weirdo armor-maxed custom frankenmechs that would make any faction's supply officer scream as his entire requisition budget is installed into a locust painted like a strawberry wearing a funny hat, and the people playing the game potentially can have huge gulfs in player skill levels.

What happens when I run at one of the JGx players in a piranha and try to eat their butt? Usually they blat me in the face and I immediately die because they go "lmao this guy is feeding" and then click on me. There's no laughing at them while holding m1, w, and a to death circle them because they'll just shoot me and I die.

What happens when I run at a 50 percentile player in his chunky fatboy 100 ton assault and he barely sees targets on his screen, registers that he's getting shot in the back after the second alpha lands turning the CT cherry red, and doesn't understand the fundamentals of fighting a light even remotely? I get a 100% free kill and everyone playing the blame game at the end of the match goes "No wonder we lost, the guy in the fafnir got 0 damage!"

You're acting like the problem with the game is in the way the equipment is matching up. It's a correct assumption in cases involving clear mismatches, like a brawler sneaking up on an extreme range mech, or a laser vomit mech catching a ppfld mech out in the open. But with mechs just running an appropriate weapon loadout for their tonnage where they can mutually shoot each other and where both pilots understand the fundamentals of piloting and shooting, an assault will slap a light into its grave faster than it can decide which direction it's going to try to juke in to continue its pitiful existence.

If you're struggling with lights in a 1v1 it's a you problem, not a balance problem. They can absolutely harass and pin you down and punish you for not accounting for them, but if they do a hard engagement and you aren't being pressured from any other angle then you should be mulching them (which is why they should be waiting for it to no longer be a 1v1 to commit to the kill.)

Edited by Commoners, 18 September 2021 - 05:48 PM.

[BLOODREDSIN]

denAirwalkerrr, on 18 September 2021 - 03:04 PM, said:

Just because you have clueless opnion about how lights should be unplayable doesn't mean they shouldn't pose thread to heavier mechs.

Here we go again, never said any of that. I don't think they should be unplayable. They haven't been unplayable as far as i know from any past title either. Problem is - this game has given you and many others who didn't know wtf mechwarrior was 10 years ago a false sense of "im supposed to be able to go toe to toe with ANY mech in this game and have a chance" syndrome.

[BLOODREDSIN]

Dont LRM me please, on 18 September 2021 - 03:22 PM, said:

It's ok to admit that you're wrong, we're not going to make fun of you or anything. As a matter of fact, we can help you deal with lights better.

Wrong about what?

[Brauer]

LordNothing, on 18 September 2021 - 05:22 PM, said:

perhaps. but i have experience in game physics.

human reaction time is between 150 and 300ms. low latency screens and mice can be as low as 10ms. so lets assume good hardware and lower end human reaction time, a total of 180ms. a stock piranha goes 145.8kph or 40.5 m/s. that represents a total movement of 7.29 meters in the time it takes you to see the shot and tell your finger what to do, and that signal getting to the computer. this number is going to be higher if you are slow or have slow hardware.

physics in games is not fluid, its done in discreet steps. server tick rate is 30fps (i think, someone mentioned a tick rate of 0.11 or 30 per second, in the same post, and those numbers do not compute as 1/30 is 0.033 or 33ms), so we can assume several server ticks have happened between crosshair line up and actual firing. whether or not the server agrees with your data is up to the server.

to put this in perspective were still talking difference between good aiming and great aiming. for most players, yea point and click adventure game.

hsr only cares about the timestamp of the impact and the weapon vector and origin for hitscan (velocity vector and current position for projectiles), it then rewinds the animation state to account for the offset before looking at the collision in more detail to figure out what hit where. you still are the one that decides where those are in space at what time.

I have practical experience killing light mechs. In practice you place the crosshair on the light mech, you click, light mech takes damage/goes away.

[YueFei]

Meh, some people's ego needs a salve I guess.

Me? When my starchy tuber fingers fail to find and hit the enemy light mech over and over again and I get killed? I don't need to make excuses, or rant about Lights OP, I'm happy to admit I just can't aim.

[pattonesque]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

Here we go again, never said any of that. I don't think they should be unplayable. They haven't been unplayable as far as i know from any past title either. Problem is - this game has given you and many others who didn't know wtf mechwarrior was 10 years ago a false sense of "im supposed to be able to go toe to toe with ANY mech in this game and have a chance" syndrome.

you keep saying this. If I go toe-to-toe with an assault and I'm in a Piranha and the assault has a good build and a good pilot, I will lose, because he'll fire at me and hit me and I won't have the armor to take it.

You keep describing lights as being able to go "toe to toe with ANY mech in this game and have a chance." Lights in this game perform well at higher levels by being sneaky, hitting mechs in the back or flanks, being extremely aware of when attention is being paid to them, and picking targets that are wounded or out of position. If they go "toe to toe" with assault mechs -- especially after the recent change that let assaults pitch more to aim down at them -- they die, and quickly.

Let's be frank here -- the reason you had an unhinged and extraordinarily angry initial reaction to a post which is, in essence, just saying not to be afraid of Piranhas and to just shoot them is because you have a false conception of how they are played. I'm gonna guess that you keep being circled by Piranhas and you're so pissed and stressed at the experience that you keep missing and missing and missing. I think the original post hit a nerve, but honestly, next time this happens, just take a deep breath and treat it like any other mech -- and shoot it.

[Commoners]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

Problem is - this game has given you and many others who didn't know wtf mechwarrior was 10 years ago a false sense of "im supposed to be able to go toe to toe with ANY mech in this game and have a chance" syndrome.

Mechwarrior ten years ago was only two years before MWO was released, and in mechwarrior 4 the meta was just grabbing whatever inviolable meta specialist build you needed for that particular map to poke the other mechs to death. In that regard, you'd usually see light mediums like the shadowcat just trouncing on 100 tonners like the daishi and fafnir as they wobbled around uselessly.

And I guess if we want to go further back, in mechwarrior 3 the netcode was horrific and the meta was hoping that you were playing on a lan instead of someone from australia where neither of you could hit each other regardless of player skill, loadout, or anything because once ping got over 250 everything went out the window, and then someone would call one of the player's houses and their internet would drop because they only had one phone line.

Edited by Commoners, 18 September 2021 - 06:02 PM.

[Tarogato]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 05:08 PM, said:

Since you are an adamant participant in this thread, I have a question for you.

What in your opinion are the strongest lights / fast mechs in the game? In order if at all possible.

I'm curious to see a list of lights you would consider to be overpowered, or performing above their station.

[BLOODREDSIN]

pattonesque, on 18 September 2021 - 03:23 PM, said:

Repeated: if you are in a properly built and utilized heavier mech you should have no problem taking on a light 1-on-1.

Bloodredsin, you have problems taking on a light 1-on-1. Is this because PGI/The Cauldron/evil competitive players have made it so, or is it because you are the problem?

Please, the next time you find yourself in this situation, ignore the rising panic, take a deep breath, and just shoot the light. You'll see a dramatic improvement.

Stop stating the obvious. No one wants to read the spam from you.

I do not have any problem taking on a light 1v1.This is a false narrative you and your coward cronies are trying to push in this thread as pointed out numerous times. Aside from that there is an obvious issue with some mechs. Nothing will be done about it - so its really comical watching you all tremble and scramble to dogpile anyone who mentions that there is a problem.

Don't worry pattonesque dont worry... you guys control what gets implemented now. You know it aint getting addressed. You guys been buffing the daylights out of them this whole time. Doing your own thing while claiming the majority of the community is on board with every decision made. Why you guys gotta come in and try to throw a fuss? I cant take your toys away. I cant change anything, Why dogpile me or others who mention it? Why try to derail the conversation trying to make it about me instead of the topic at hand. Every one of you are doing that for a reason.You guys got access to this game in ways no player should. You don't have to fight so hard or keep making posts and threads claiming "every thing is ok, its just you". Enough already.

Edited by BLOODREDSIN, 18 September 2021 - 06:27 PM.

[pattonesque]

buddy, I'm not part of the Cauldron. I honestly have no idea why you came into what was a pretty lighthearted thread saying this:

"Listen, take your commie propaganda concealed within a story that was supposed to be funny somewhere else. Anyone in their right mind knows there is a problem with that mech and others, and no amount of dis information you and your comp buddies try to push are going to convince anyone of anything. The rest of us can see, think, feel, and understand for ourselves. We don't need your advice. We don't look up to you, or ANY of your little kabal of buddies."

maybe reconsider what drives you to believe you need to die furiously on this bizarre little hill you've constructed.

and shoot the Piranha.

[BLOODREDSIN]

Kurlon, on 18 September 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

Doesn't need to be a 'lore' reason. MWO is it's own game that uses Battletech as a thematic starting point, but that's it. This isn't tabletop translated to real time, it's not a sim, it's a rapid fire first person shooter with deeper mechanics than Call of Duty. All balancing, etc should be focused on making that experience as fun as possible, full stop, 'lore' be damned if it gets in the way.

Deeper mechanics than CoD? THIS IS CoD its just in the year 3000 and named MWO. That's a big part of why this game is as sorry as it is.
MWO has taken liberties with an already established game franchise and tried to do their own thing. Which has proven a disaster when this game could be running stronger than ever. The game play is stale and repetative , little excitement , @ssload of time spent waiting in que, garbage atmosphere, garbage immersion, garbage networking code... you know if you been around.

We don't know wtf they are doing honestly, half the time they claim lore and then the other half they are breaking it. I feel we need to stay as close as possible but making exceptions to spice up a chassis and make it more fun or give it more loadout options i don't have a problem with - as long as it does not imbalance the mech where it over performs.

[John Bronco]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 06:49 PM, said:

Deeper mechanics than CoD? THIS IS CoD its just in the year 3000 and named MWO

Have you ever actually played CoD?!

[Bows3r]

BLOODREDSIN, on 18 September 2021 - 05:08 PM, said:

No its not cannon, not the way it operates in this game. And that one sentence is not an all inclusive right for Piranhas to take on any mech in battletech and be a threat. You don't seriously expect me to believe you think a Pir should be able to eviscerate any mech in this game just cause one sentence on Sarna site (which can be edited by anyone anytime) embellished the hell out of this mechs capabilities. This mech was primarily used for culling infantry. Here's some of what you omitted:

They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3 ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles

What i see here is their primary role and the fact they are supposed to be dealing with heat issues using the lasers and they should be short of ammo as it clearly states they must stay near supply lines. Well our piranhas don't have any of those challenges and correct me if i am wrong but aren't they handing out negative heat and free ammo bonuses, armor bonuses, structure bonuses like candy to some of these chassis not to mention even more mobility? That is not consistent with what i am reading on Sarna. Also i want to point out that it says they are most deadly against unarmored infantry - implying they have more issue with armored targets. How much more armor does a Mech have as opposed to an armored infantry soldier?



You see, there was already an established formula for this gameplay type. Never should have deviated from it.

For the record, while the PIR-1 is not entirely ideal against 'mechs, most 'mechs on stock TT come with between 7 and 14 back armor give or take a few. The PIR-1's complement of 1 ERML and 2 ERSL alone are capable of opening the backs on many 'mechs, let alone the 12 machineguns @ 2 damage per. This is especially noteworthy since unlike many anti-infantry 'mechs, its a particularly quick design, out of the box. As I am sure you are aware, TAC's are a very powerful thing in tabletop battletech, and the PIR-1's ability to dish out 15 individual TAC rolls per turn, makes it pose a real threat to larger 'mechs, let alone its ability to roll crits like no tomorrow once a 'mech is opened front or rear. Added to that, its ability to dish out 41 damage with a full 'alpha' means it also poses a very real threat to other lighter 'mechs, especially other infantry hunting 'mechs.