629 replies to this topic

[Vyx]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 10 December 2021 - 10:46 AM, said:

nah mate;

you presented 'your experiences' in this game as fact and as coming from a pro;

when POLITELY pointed out by several people where your flaws are, you're calling EVERYBODY an idiot.


so.. yeah. "discussion" went along as expected before-hand.

Because the sniping by fools pointing out flaws you have no proof I exhibit was not polite at all. It was meant to be debasing and insulting and you know it. So yeah, went about as expected, and I should expect no less. For eight years I've put in 15000 matches of pretty-much exclusive assault gameplay all while maintaining a good record. There couldn't possibly be any merit to anything I said. Done with this.

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 11:38 AM.

[Capt Deadpool]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

But what I have held to all along, was that the relationship between lights and assaults is clearly broken. Not that lights are themselves broken. Versus every other weight class, lights seem to perform fine. But versus assaults in particular, I assert they are too strong.

I don’t want to deny your struggles, vyx, but as has been repeated ad nauseam, if you find yourself repeatedly being ganked by a light/lights while playing an assault, this is 100% a sign that your positioning and/or situational awareness skills are not as high as you think they are and you should play something faster that can reposition more quickly.

The caveat to this is that, while lights are the worst performing class in the game by a pretty significant margin, I have a strong suspicion that Tier 3 light pilots have an outsized advantage against Tier 4 and 5 players who have not developed positioning/situational awareness/aiming skills, and particularly assaults, resulting in probably too many highly discouraging games for cadets and lower tier players. Unfortunately this is not an easy problem to solve.

[Blood Rose]

I will try and sum up Vyx's problem in terms that might make more sense
Vyx is a battleship captain.
During the course of his battles Vyx has a tendency to become detached from the line of battle and his escorting cruisers (mediums and heavies) and escorts (lower end mediums and lights).
Seeing a detached Battleship the enemy Frigates, Torpedo Boats and Destroyers (Lights and lower end Mediums) attempt to take advantage of the unescorted BB by evading its main guns and using the islands and reefs as cover from its main battery whilst they launch hit and run attacks against it.
Vyx is a BB that is set up for engaging enemy capital ships and Armoured Cruisers. He has neglected his secondary batteries and his gunners on the main battery are poor shots when it comes to engaging small, fast moving, escorts.
Consequently Vyx repeatedly finds himself powerless, stuck in a fusillade of rapid small gun fire and torpedo soup that sees him torn apart and either sunk or rendered unable to meaningfully influence the outcome of the clash of the main elements of the fleets.

There are several solutions to this:
1) Vyx could pick the pace up and maybe focus more on manoeuvring, and keeping with the main elements of the fleet. This would ensure he did not become isolated and easy prey and ensuring he had allies to help watch his back.
2) Vyx could mount more secondary batteries and train his gunners to use them well, allowing him to engage the Light menace easily. This is not a great one but it does let him fend off all but the most dedicated.
3) Vyx could try and train his gunners to be able to effectively engage faster moving targets with the main battery, ensuring most Lights will simply be deleted.
4) Vyx could attempt several of the above for maximum effect
5) Vyx can whine on the forum about how Lights are OP and need to be nerfed into the ground, should have nothing more than tinfoil armour that a Medium Laser can punch through and should not mount anything heavier than a Micro Laser and maybe a single MG. Oh, and their speed needs to be capped at 80kph.

Look carefully and consider which one will have the most effect.

[1453 R]

Vyx.

Nobody is disputing your experience. Nobody is telling you that you haven't experienced what you have.

What people are disputing is the secondary claim you are making - that your experience is universal. That ALL assault 'mechs will lose, 100% of the time, to ALL light 'mechs because you tend to lose more often than you like against most light 'Mechs. You are trying to claim that your experience grants you authority, whilst denying that anyone else's experience grants them authority. That other people's experience with not having trouble with light 'Mechs as an assault driver is somehow incorrect, or that a light 'Mech pilot's experience of having to work drastically harder for their damage don't matter.

I've been spending a lot of time in light 'Mechs recently. Mostly my MLX-PRIME(I) HMG blaster, but have also been spending some time in my ol' Sabre, kitted out for Commando-esque SRM brawlishing. I've got a Beamspam Supportifier kitted up as a general overwatch machine I've been putting more time into recently, as well. The key thing with my own experiences with all of them is that I have to be super picky about my engagements. I cannot afford to slip up, even once - if I do I'm usually mission-killed even if I survive, left too crippled to have any realistic impact on the fight. If the enemy balls up densely and refuses to scatter, I'm often helpless in anything but the Cute Fox.

Sabre absolutely relies on the enemy screwing up and diffusing enough to give me an isolated target to pick on, because even with its durability quirks that 'Mech cannot stand in the brawl and trade punches. The Meth Linux is somewhat better, given its almost absurb level of armor quirking and the extra survivability its smaller silhouette and jump capacity give it - plus, of course, its Piranha-esque levels of 'Mech-chewing DPS - but even in the Meth Linux (my best-performing light 'mech by far) I have to be super canny, cautious, and paranoid. I can win duels with assault 'Mechs in the Meth Linux...if the assault driver is a bad shot and/or rattled by my machine gun fire, and if the assault 'Mech is alone. Very, very rarely, I can manage a brief - brief - dive into a lance-sized or smaller pack of targets to try and harvest an exposed leg or shoulder, but generally only if the lance in question doesn't know I'm coming until I'm there and is not particularly well-suited to dealing with light 'Mechs.

One, single, blap from a gagglebananas LB50/X Annihilator and I may as well rub some salve on it at home because I'm officially out of the match. Wander in front of a heavy goose Fatnir for half a second too long and I'm either spiked dead in an instant or I lost half the 'Mech - and that's with the Meth Linux's heavy, heavy armor quirking. Walk around the corner into the front side of a Fatlas and I'm not sitting there going "Ohhhh, juicy crotch, let's sniff it and get a free kill!" I'm going "#&@*$^@#*(&$^&(*@^$#(*&@&$ ABORT ABORT REDIRECT COURSE BE ELSEWHERE NAO PLZ AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

That's my experience - and I'm down here in the lowbie tiers where light 'mechs are disproportionately dangerous because nobody in T4 can shoot for beans. Yes, I can poke assault 'Mechs - but it's a super fraught, deeply uncertain experience that ends with me in a smouldering heap telling myself that I got what I deserved pushing my luck as often as it ends with a dead assault 'Mech. And frankly, I'm in the weight class that's supposed to be good against assault 'Mechs.

You ask "why would anyone buy an assault 'Mech when they could buy five Locusts, instead?!" Because the two Centurions you could buy for the same five Locusts will eat the Locusts alive. Light 'Mechs existed, so they made medium 'Mechs to prey on light 'Mechs. Then medium 'Mechs existed, so they made heavy 'Mechs to prey on medium 'Mechs. Then heavy 'Mechs existed, so they made assault 'Mechs to prey on heavy 'Mechs. They woulda made superheavy 'Mechs to prey on the assault 'Mechs, but that didn't work out so well and they discovered that enough light 'Mechs could prey on the assault 'Mechs. And thus the circle was complete. It's the same reason why real-life militaries don't use nothing but cheap, disposable weapons instead of spending a ton of money on heavy ground armor - there are some jobs only the ground armor can do, and the heavy ground armor's vulnerability to guerilla attacks is mitigated with proper screen and escorting.

Assault 'Mechs are not meant to be undisputable, unkillable, invincible Lords of the Battlefield. They're meant to be anchor points, tankbusters that punch holes in the enemy's formation and control space by being the biggest baddest thing in that space. if you hang them out to dry, or if you're in one and you hang yourself out to dry, they get eaten alive by superior mobility and numbers - as they should. The game would be extremely boring if assault 'Mechs were unstoppable monster beasts that outright dominated every other 'Mech in the game the way long-time assault drivers all seem to feel they should. To turn the question back around...why bother with anything below assault at that point, eh? Why not just force everyone into an assault 'mech and be done with it?

[Blood Rose]

1453 R, on 10 December 2021 - 12:50 PM, said:

They woulda made superheavy 'Mechs to prey on the assault 'Mechs, but that didn't work out so well

They do actually start making them. The word of Blake make the Omega towards the end of the Jihad, and several chassis see action on Terra with a few surviving to be captured.
The Republic of the Sphere continue the Omega program, developing the SHP-5r, and start their own Super Heavy program that results in the Poseidon which is developed into the Ares.

Also, Light Mechs have several roles with only some being predators, but Vyx is wrong again about Light pilots being "suicidal" in TT. Strikers are murder hit and run bunnies, some fire support units like the Panther are really good firepower boosters for a lance whilst often being overlooked but the majority are scouts, which become really important on larger maps for spotting for indirect fire and even moreso when you are playing Double Blind.
Seriously, anyone who wonders why Lights are still used in later eras needs to play Double Blind, you quickly realise why.

[MPhoenix]

After realizing that challenging the status quo was tantamount to a lynching offense I was going to leave this be but after playing my loyalty Viper a bit I've revised my thoughts on this.

While I still think collision/impact damage would more fairly balance the cost/benefit of charging a monstrous hulk of metal in a beer can I think the issue is more weapons balance.

I can bounce a heavy PPC or two off of a mech and life goes on but a few seconds of machine gun fire and I'm in to a torso.
This is kind of ridiculous unless 'machine gun' really means 'Gatling cannon'.
I can 'mag dump' several belts from an M60 in to an M1 Abrams and barely damage the paint job. A Ma Deuce would have an affect over time but even that doesn't match how quickly an MWO machine gun can chew through a torso.

Seriously, does steel not exist in this universe?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

MPhoenix, on 10 December 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

After realizing that challenging the status quo was tantamount to a lynching offense I was going to leave this be but after playing my loyalty Viper a bit I've revised my thoughts on this.

While I still think collision/impact damage would more fairly balance the cost/benefit of charging a monstrous hulk of metal in a beer can I think the issue is more weapons balance.

I can bounce a heavy PPC or two off of a mech and life goes on but a few seconds of machine gun fire and I'm in to a torso.
This is kind of ridiculous unless 'machine gun' really means 'Gatling cannon'.
I can 'mag dump' several belts from an M60 in to an M1 Abrams and barely damage the paint job. A Ma Deuce would have an affect over time but even that doesn't match how quickly an MWO machine gun can chew through a torso.

Seriously, does steel not exist in this universe?

just to get the context: so you rolled with your HMG-viper and it is too good? because if you consistently kill several assaults per match with it, that's 'good work'.
if otoh that is not the case, why would you consider MGs to be too good if you struggle with em?

don't wanna sound like an ***, but:
here's a thought: maybe it's not the Viper, maybe it's not the MGs, and maybe it's neither Lightmechs nor Assaults that are the actual problem. maybe, some more practice would solve stuff that people 'complain' about where others tell you 'it's fine'..
we all started some time, and most of us started out being 'bad'. many of us trained or learned by 'being beaten to pulp often enough'. getting some experience with %stuff% (goes a long way, not just mwo) gives you a better position to assess how things are.
judging from a position of 'never tried it, but I can state.." gets you nowhere. just saying.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 10 December 2021 - 02:45 PM.

[1453 R]

MPhoenix, on 10 December 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

After realizing that challenging the status quo was tantamount to a lynching offense I was going to leave this be but after playing my loyalty Viper a bit I've revised my thoughts on this.

While I still think collision/impact damage would more fairly balance the cost/benefit of charging a monstrous hulk of metal in a beer can I think the issue is more weapons balance.

I can bounce a heavy PPC or two off of a mech and life goes on but a few seconds of machine gun fire and I'm in to a torso.
This is kind of ridiculous unless 'machine gun' really means 'Gatling cannon'.
I can 'mag dump' several belts from an M60 in to an M1 Abrams and barely damage the paint job. A Ma Deuce would have an affect over time but even that doesn't match how quickly an MWO machine gun can chew through a torso.

Seriously, does steel not exist in this universe?

Better melee/collision would be a huge boon to MWO. The underlying core BattleTech rules have always operated on the assumption that physical attacks were possible and a big deal; their lack has always done weird things to MechWarrior games. Charging, Death From Above, melee, knockdowns, all of those should be in the game.

The problem is that Piranha cannot and will not implement them. It's an impossible pipe dream. Piranha is already doing everything they are willing to do for MWO at this point - XML edits and map reduxes, and frankly it's a Christmas miracle we're getting the latter. They can't do anything with the core code, and frankly Russ and the head corpo team at PGI hate Mechwarrior Online. They don't want to work on this game anymore. They don't like working on this game. We're never going to get any real major updates to this game, so snarling about their lack does nobody any good.

That and melee isn't the answer to light 'Mechs. Again - crotch-sniffing is a tactic for the dumb and the desperate, and if it works on you it's because you let it happen A properly escorted assault 'Mech doesn't die to crotchsniffers. An assault 'Mech that can hit what it shoots at doesn't die to crotchsniffers. An assault 'Mech with reasonable weapons in its arms - hell, even just a couple of medium lasers! - doesn't die to crotchsniffers. In all the times I've piloted assault 'Mechs - and since I came back in the spring I've run the gamut on weight classes, from Meth Linuxes all the way up to Whales - I can't recall a single time I've died to a crotchsniffer. I've absolutely been wrecked in an assault 'Mech by enemy lights, but they used their mobility to henpeck me to death or finish me after someone else opened me up. They never glued themselves to my nethers and held down the fire button, the way everyone says they do.

Because that's just bad play.

As for machine guns? Yes, they're very good - when you have 8+ of them. The same holds true in tabletop - machine gun spam allows small, fast things to deal outrageous damage in close-quarters combat. I would also posit that 8+ of ANY weapon system is a problem. Eight SRM launchers? Problem. Eight lasers, of any weight or type? Problem. Eight PPCs? They call those DireStars, and they're...a meme, but only to everyone they don't hit with that initial blast. The one guy a DireStar decides is gonna Face The Storm will consider them a Problem.

Machine guns are excellent en masse, as are other small, short-range, rapid-fire weapons like small lasers. Machine guns are a sad joke in quantities much lower than five, and even five is pushing it. Note that everything with fewer machine guns than a Meth Linux or the new Loyalty Viper gets increasingly outrageous MG fire rate quirks to try and make taking two or three machine guns an actual serious thing - and it rarely actually works. The 25% RoF quirk on my aforementioned Sabre turns the 4.5 DPS of my three heavy machine guns into 5.6 DPS. Which is good! ...until one remembers that it's an Incubus, with a nominal range of 'bout a hundred meters, that needs to stare at the enemy uninterrupted for several seconds to apply that DPS.

Trust me. The machine guns are not the star of the show on that 'Mech. They're supplementary DPS and a means to help me punish people the flamers shut down. There's a reasonable argument to be made that stripping them all out for LMGs to upgrade one of the missile launchers and get a few points of armor back is the better option; I just like HMGs so I use 'em. But yeah. Anything with 8+ boated similar weapons is gonna be a thing. That heavy PPC thing? The AWS-8Q that can fire three of the gorram thundercannons at once can open up or outright cripple most light 'mechs with a single well-placed KRAKOOM.

And trust me - taking even one PPC hit, when you're piloting a light 'Mech is very much a cause for concern. It may not breach your armor, but that's a lot of armor you just lost and also somebody who managed to draw a bead on you effectively enough to ding you in the first place. Either you were asleep at the stick and got what you deserved, or somebody on the other team might actually be able to shoot and it's time to triple your paranoia.

[pattonesque]

more mechs than ever, if properly built, can now contribute effectively in their given role/range bracket. sadly for many people, this includes light mechs. you have to work harder with them but they are v. viable now

[Blood Rose]

MPhoenix, on 10 December 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

I can 'mag dump' several belts from an M60 in to an M1 Abrams and barely damage the paint job. A Ma Deuce would have an affect over time but even that doesn't match how quickly an MWO machine gun can chew through a torso.

Seriously, does steel not exist in this universe?

1: Battletech vehicle MG's are 30-40mm automatic cannons firing a mix of HE and AP. Lights are about 25mm, heavies are around 50mm.

2: Yes. There are also more advanced materials too.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MPhoenix said:

I can bounce a heavy PPC or two off of a mech and life goes on but a few seconds of machine gun fire and I'm in to a torso.
This is kind of ridiculous unless 'machine gun' really means 'Gatling cannon'.
I can 'mag dump' several belts from an M60 in to an M1 Abrams and barely damage the paint job.

Your problem is that you are trying to treat BattleTech 'machine guns' as analogous to real world 'machine guns' while conveniently (and deliberately?) ignoring that BT 'machine guns' are quite obviously very different from your run of the mill M60: The BT ones come with a weight of 250kg to 1000kg (depending on tech base and relative size) while your real world machine gun comes at below 15kg. The 'machine guns' in BattleTech are explicitly stated to be actual "anti-mech" weapons (with added damage against infantry) that in its source material actually deliver the exact same damage as an AC/2.

If you really must, then blame the original BattleTech developers for mislabeling those weapon systems because those BT 'machine guns' start off where you see the GAU-8 Avenger in the real world and end at four times of that.
And just as the GAU-8 Avenger will easily shred your M1 Abrams the

MPhoenix said:

A Ma Deuce would have an affect over time but even that doesn't match how quickly an MWO machine gun can chew through a torso.

... fictional BT 'machine guns' have zero problems shredding the fictional Mech armor that ...

MPhoenix said:

Seriously, does steel not exist in this universe?

... is supposed to be titanium alloyed with steel in its standard form and added diamond weave fibers (whatever that technobable is supposed to mean) when talking the 'ferro-fibrous' version.

In other words: You have entered the fictional universe of BattleTech so please kindly leave your real world 'machine gun' comparisons at the door.

[Maddermax]

MPhoenix said:

1639174316[/url]' post='6437336']
After realizing that challenging the status quo was tantamount to a lynching offense I was going to leave this be but after playing my loyalty Viper a bit I've revised my thoughts on this.

While I still think collision/impact damage would more fairly balance the cost/benefit of charging a monstrous hulk of metal in a beer can I think the issue is more weapons balance.

I can bounce a heavy PPC or two off of a mech and life goes on but a few seconds of machine gun fire and I'm in to a torso.
This is kind of ridiculous unless 'machine gun' really means 'Gatling cannon'.
I can 'mag dump' several belts from an M60 in to an M1 Abrams and barely damage the paint job. A Ma Deuce would have an affect over time but even that doesn't match how quickly an MWO machine gun can chew through a torso.

Seriously, does steel not exist in this universe?

Armour in Battletech is made to be ablative and absorb damage. I don’t know what space magic makes it all work, but essentially it’s all a honeycombed/foamed structure that breaks apart as it’s damaged, but it allows it to take massive hits that would simply blast through steel plates into the structure otherwise. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Armor_(BattleMechs_%26_Combat_Vehicles

As for machine guns in MWO, they’re good at damage for a very limiting set of circumstances. You have to be very close (under 200m), have to stare at the enemy for quite a long period, and the sound and visuals make it very obvious when and from where you’re being attacked. Understand, you can take lots of set ups that out-damage Machine Guns at much better range, their big advantage is how quickly they rip through structure of an open component. Machine guns can be snap shot, you can’t poke effectively with them, you have to put yourself in the fight to use them well.
There are a lot of pros and cons for them. Nerfing them would mean people just go to the more effective laser boats anyway, and life would carry on with just less variety.

[Vyx]

Blood Rose, on 10 December 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

I will try and sum up Vyx's problem in terms that might make more sense
Vyx is a battleship captain.

See here's the thing. You are obviously speculating. You have never played with me; you have no idea how I tend to play. You have a certain vision of me. You then craft a straw man of me, describe it for everyone to see, and then knock it down at your leisure. This is both lazy of the mind and disingenuous.

The reason, as I have stated several times, that I even mention my experience/record is because the errors that you see many poor assault pilots performing, I do not perform on a regular basis. In fact, I hardly do at all. That is why I am in a good standing when it comes to my stats.

As many know, it takes a certain mindset to play an assault. While the light pilot sweats the twitchy world of reactive, frenetic movement during their aggression (and I don't belittle this), an assault cannot easily retreat out of a trap or a poor decision. Often, once committed, they are committed. Therefore, an assault worth their salt must have a "battlefield awareness" that borders on the preternatural. They must know both timing and position, in order to know precisely where and precisely when to apply their strength -- often using nothing but gut-instinct. If they judge wrong, I suspect most would agree that there is no other chassis in the game that is punished more for their error, being so generally slow and large.

I do well in assaults. It is in my blood. That is why I gravitate to them. I have the skills (to some moderate degree) that I outline above. This is, once again, evidenced by my record. I don't get "caught out of position" or "fail to build-in arm weapons". I do just "shoot them" and I do so with a fairly good level of success. And I don't get "crotch-stuffed" all the time. In fact, not very often at all as I usually just calmly lower my arms and ruin them, as many have been so kind to suggest.

Let me be clear, I am not claiming my experience is universal. I claim that my experience has elevated me beyond what you are stating plainly are my "issues". They are not. So with those possibilities removed from the equation, I ask you, what else might there be that is causing the light-vs-assault disparity here?

To address the "you've never piloted a light, how can you say there is something wrong with them?". As I have stated before, I have never been a criminal, but I know crime is wrong. For the mentally impaired, this is not to say I think that all light pilots are criminals (I find it stunning that I even need to say that). I am simply stating that it does not take "being" a certain component to see that said component is somehow "off" within a system. If I look at an engine and I see the flywheel is imbalanced, affecting the performance of the engine, I do not need to become "one with the flywheel" -- I simply observe its behavior. And I have been observing these behaviors for 8 years.

Lastly, perhaps addressing a solution that can be implemented would help here. Long ago, PGI in its infinite wisdom decided to reduce torso/arm traversal speeds on assaults. They wanted them to be slow and ponderous so that lights could exploit them better. From the perspective of an assault pilot, that time was frustrating to the point of being comical. Fighting in an assault back then was like fighting in a fat suit (as I'm sure many will remember with distaste).

The Cauldron group re-addressed that to some degree, yes, and I'd agree it is much closer to being in the right place. But one of the things I have noticed about the Caldron group is that when it comes to assaults (again, my experience) they tend to err on the side of caution (not a terrible thing). With regard to this one aspect, I feel assaults are still too slow from a traversal/tracking standpoint. As a suggestion to that group, bumping up rate-of-turn by 5% or so for assaults might be enough for them to have a better chance of defending themselves vs the little-guys while not over-affecting their performance vs others.

My 2 cents.

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 10:47 PM.

[1453 R]

A query, Vyx.

What do you suppose the role of light 'Mechs, in the 12 vs. 12 team combat arena shooter that is MWO, is supposed to be?

You clearly do not believe light 'Mechs should be viable/valid counters to large, slow, ponderous gunmonsters like assault 'Mechs. After all, even right now light 'mechs overall perform very poorly against such machines; there needs to be a very large skill disparity involved for a light 'Mech to "easily" triumph over assault 'Mechs the way you state they do. When no such skill gap exists, light 'Mechs need to be very, very lucky and find a perfect engagement to even stand an iffy, fifty-fifty chance.

if light 'Mechs are supposed to be automatic victories for assault 'Mechs, then what do you suppose the role of a light 'Mech in MWO - not in tabletop, not in the lore, not in MW5, in MechWarrior Online specifically - is supposed to be?

And as well, what do you suppose the counter to assault 'Mechs is supposed to be? What is supposed to be able to beat assault 'Mechs? Assault 'mechs aren't allowed to lose to mobile enemies making superior use of their mobility, as you've spent a few pages now working to establish. So what are they supposed to lose to? What's the counterplay to assault 'Mechs? How do you defeat them without mirror-matching them?

[MPhoenix]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 10 December 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

just to get the context: so you rolled with your HMG-viper and it is too good? because if you consistently kill several assaults per match with it, that's 'good work'.
if otoh that is not the case, why would you consider MGs to be too good if you struggle with em?

Context Failure.

My comment was and is that comparing the damage done from MG to other damage done there seems to be an inequity.
Not that they are 'too good' but they seem to be out of balance with what are suppose to be larger and more powerful weapons. The disparity of weight to damage is rather large.

As for the whole 'more practice' comment if you read back through you will see I have never said anything other than that i am rather new and frankly rather crappy as a pilot right now.

I'm not saying 'I always get killed by these damned things' I'm saying 'After playing a short while I'm seeing some things that seem out of balance'.
I've also never said 'I never tried it but..' I've said that from the times I've tried it or in the case of crotch hugging lights seen it often'. I've tried just about every system in the game at least once, and found some truly spectacular ways to die too.

Blood Rose, on 10 December 2021 - 02:57 PM, said:

1: Battletech vehicle MG's are 30-40mm automatic cannons firing a mix of HE and AP. Lights are about 25mm, heavies are around 50mm.

2: Yes. There are also more advanced materials too.

That adds some solid context and makes more sense. As was said the nomenclature really is inaccurate.
Being more of Gatling cannons then machine guns does explain a higher level of damage although it does bring a question or two to the fore.

If 'MGs' are actually Gatling cannons similar to the Vulcan and GAU they are using mechanisms similar in function to the RACs. Shouldn't there be a jam chance for them too?

Also if MGs are 25mm-50mm Gatling cannons WTH are A/Cs firing, Volkswagens!?!

[Blood Rose]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 07:17 PM, said:

[A whole lot of not getting it]

I dont know why im bothering but here
Lights. Are. Not. A. Problem.
If you are having a problem with Light Mechs killing Assaults then it is the ASSAULT MECHs pilots who are at fault. YES, that does include you.
I am by no means a top tier player, but I dont have a problem with Light mechs, even when im running my dual Heavy Gauss Fafnir. Hell, I am a **** Assault pilot and I still do not have a problem.
Why?
Because I
A) Learnt deflection aiming and thus am able to land main battery hits semi reliably
and
B ) Mount secondary batteries that are designed to take down Light mechs. 3 ER Medium lasers, not a scary battery but Lights dont like it and it drives most of them off.
and
C) I stick with my team. If a Light jumps me the Mediums and Heavies around me give it a firm lesson in manners

A SINGLE hit from the main battery of ANY of my assaults (bar the Corsair, its a RAC gremlin but its secondary battery makes up for it) WILL cripple just about any Light short of an Urbanmech that it hits, if not outright delete them. The secondary batteries will almost always send them packing. You really need to play a Light to understand, the Medium Lasers that are your secondary/tertiary battery on an Assault are frequently the MAIN battery on a Light. Hell, for example my Cyclops and Fafnir both mount ER Medium Lasers (4 and 3 respectively) as their Secondary batteries whilst my Flea mounts 2 Mediums and 2 ER Smalls as its main battery.
Do the math for a second there, my Fleas entire complement of weapons is LESS than the secondary battery of one of my Assaults. Hell, my Enforcer mounts 3 ER Medium Lasers as its Secondary battery.
On top of this compare the armour. My Flea will take a hit from the secondary batteries of any of my Assaults, but it will be beaten up and the Corsair might actually do some serious damage whilst a main battery hit will render it unable to fight if not destroyed.
In return its entire weapons complement will not even breach the rear armour of one of those Assaults. Or any of my Heavies for that matter. But hey, dont take my word for it, try playing a Light and see.

>"torso pitch is too slow"
Thats what you have ARMS for. Mount some anti-light weapons in your arms, and when the Light is too fast unlock your arms and hit him. Your arms track faster than your torso. Use them. FFS, people have already told you this.

>"Battleship captain"
If you actually knew Battletech then you would know the TT game is often described as "A ironclad to pre-dreadnought but with Mechs"

Edited by Blood Rose, 10 December 2021 - 09:37 PM.

[RickySpanish]

1453 R, on 10 December 2021 - 07:40 PM, said:

A query, Vyx.

What do you suppose the role of light 'Mechs, in the 12 vs. 12 team combat arena shooter that is MWO, is supposed to be?

You clearly do not believe light 'Mechs should be viable/valid counters to large, slow, ponderous gunmonsters like assault 'Mechs. After all, even right now light 'mechs overall perform very poorly against such machines; there needs to be a very large skill disparity involved for a light 'Mech to "easily" triumph over assault 'Mechs the way you state they do. When no such skill gap exists, light 'Mechs need to be very, very lucky and find a perfect engagement to even stand an iffy, fifty-fifty chance.

if light 'Mechs are supposed to be automatic victories for assault 'Mechs, then what do you suppose the role of a light 'Mech in MWO - not in tabletop, not in the lore, not in MW5, in MechWarrior Online specifically - is supposed to be?

And as well, what do you suppose the counter to assault 'Mechs is supposed to be? What is supposed to be able to beat assault 'Mechs? Assault 'mechs aren't allowed to lose to mobile enemies making superior use of their mobility, as you've spent a few pages now working to establish. So what are they supposed to lose to? What's the counterplay to assault 'Mechs? How do you defeat them without mirror-matching them?

Light 'Mechs usually trade armour and firepower for agility and size. Their advantage is in superior positioning. A Light does not need to be impossible to hit to be effective, nor does it need to partake in a comical rock paper scissors type game with Assaults like the Piranha does. Counters to Assault 'Mechs are also achieved through superior positioning, by using cover as armour or by deploying your own Assaults, or by engaging at a more effective range. The notion that classes in MWO are based around rock paper scissors lizard spock or whatever is just... so simplistic. And horrible for all the reasons Vyx mentions. Mechs are more than their class, their role in a team is defined by their effective range, their speed, their ability to project force into a given area. When you begin to think of 'Mechs as more like chess pieces than classes who defeat x but are in turn defeated by y, you gain a better understanding of the strategy involved in the game. Even if that strategy frequently devolves into mad high speed flanking. Vyx is right by the way - there are some Lights that are extremely over balanced at most tiers.

[Saved By The Bell]

I am training my last assault, Atlas. Then I start to play 20t mechs. Never played them except one commando. Lets see, If I ll be able to hold Tier 1 and Tier 2.

[Vyx]

1453 R, on 10 December 2021 - 07:40 PM, said:

A query, Vyx.

What do you suppose the role of light 'Mechs, in the 12 vs. 12 team combat arena shooter that is MWO, is supposed to be?

You clearly do not believe light 'Mechs should be viable/valid counters to large, slow, ponderous gunmonsters like assault 'Mechs.

I am glad you asked. I believe that the role of many light mechs should be as viable/valid counters to large, slow, ponderous gun-monsters like assault 'Mechs. (Notice that is exactly what you think I do not believe.) And I believe they are fulfilling that role; unfortunately I feel they are doing it too well.

In my opinion, assaults simply need to be thrown a small bone here. I'm not advocating a total rework of all game-balance. I'm not advocating "nerfing" lights in general. On the contrary, I am advocating just giving a bit more survivability through slightly increased arm/torso agility to assaults. Might this be reasonable?

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[Adeptus Odren]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

In my opinion, assaults simply need to be thrown a small bone here. I'm not advocating a total rework of all game-balance. I'm not advocating "nerfing" lights in general. On the contrary, I am advocating just giving a bit more survivability through slightly increased arm/torso agility to assaults. Might this be reasonable?

Or a button that will let us simulate a kick to leghumping Flea.