165 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

martian, on 19 December 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

I have played a few times on this map, but the amount of LRMs was quite low in all games. Maybe it is a matter of being in different Tiers.

yeah I've played it 21 times according to my map stats and I've rarely seen LRMs on it. I've played about 200 games this month so that's about 10% of my games -- except it's only been out since the 14th, so it's a significantly larger percentage. Of course this is due to the map being new, but it's not like new Caustic where people avoided it pretty much immediately.

In general, save for new Caustic, the map changes have been welcome and I see them pop up on a regular basis in QP. Generally the only map that reliably beats the new or reworked ones is Mining, but Mining is probably the most popular map in the game so that's not a bad thing.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 19 December 2021 - 10:23 AM, said:

So no headless charge to the centre of the map, then? Words "Situational awareness" mean something again?

Sorry, but it doesn't work, when enemies can be not only in front or behind, but also above and below. Defense works in this game in two cases only. When you're covered by your teammates. Or when you're covered by terrain. In most cases players search for spots on a map, where they're covered enough not to deal with attacks from multiple directions. Because, again, it's not possible in this game. I'm not 100% sure now, but, I guess, this map doesn't have such spots. There is always some way for enemies to get on that hill above you, that isn't covered by your teammates, and openly attack you from there, while you try to deal with frontal attacks from other enemies.

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

Sorry, but it doesn't work, when enemies can be not only in front or behind, but also above and below. Defense works in this game in two cases only. When you're covered by your teammates. Or when you're covered by terrain. In most cases players search for spots on a map, where they're covered enough not to deal with attacks from multiple directions. Because, again, it's not possible in this game. I'm not 100% sure now, but, I guess, this map doesn't have such spots. There is always some way for enemies to get on that hill above you, that isn't covered by your teammates, and openly attack you from there, while you try to deal with frontal attacks from other enemies.

this is true of every map and knowing when positions are protected and when they are not is a holistic thing, combining minimap awareness, knowledge of the map itself, a sense for the flow of the individual battle, proactive and reactive movement, and a number of other things. If an enemy manages to get an angle on you, it's 90% them playing well or you playing poorly, with the remainder either being blind luck or a particular issue with the map.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

Sorry, but it doesn't work, when enemies can be not only in front or behind, but also above and below.

Everything what enemy players do to you can you do to them. Think about it.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

Sorry, but it doesn't work, when enemies can be not only in front or behind, but also above and below. Defense works in this game in two cases only. When you're covered by your teammates. Or when you're covered by terrain. In most cases players search for spots on a map, where they're covered enough not to deal with attacks from multiple directions. Because, again, it's not possible in this game. I'm not 100% sure now, but, I guess, this map doesn't have such spots. There is always some way for enemies to get on that hill above you, that isn't covered by your teammates, and openly attack you from there, while you try to deal with frontal attacks from other enemies.

Well, the map is new for everybody and everybody has to solve the same problems as you have just described.

No racing to the favorite rock as we have seen a thousand times on every single MWO map.

This time, the motto is "Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!"

Edited by martian, 19 December 2021 - 12:25 PM.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:08 AM, said:

I'm not sure. May be players still haven't found good spot on this map, but all I can say about it for now is - STOP VOTING FOR THIS MAP, IT'S TERRIBLE. Due to exactly the same reason, why new HPG is bad. Yeah, it has lots of cover, but at the same it has lots of directions, you can't be attacked from at the same time. And unfortunately offense >> defense in this game. There is no way to deal with situation, where you're attacked from multiple directions.

Like clockwork

[MechB Kotare]

I love it. Very anti-nascary which i greatly appreciate. Also from my experience, it gets voted for quite frequently.

Now pls make another. Ty.

[DaZur]

martian, on 18 December 2021 - 02:16 AM, said:

This is exactly what I suggested. Let the players vote for the map they would like to play on.

Agreed...

IMHO, more the better. Rename them something else and let them all roll... The player base will pick what they want.

I cannot rationalize any reason to 86 them...

[MrMadguy]

pattonesque, on 19 December 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

this is true of every map and knowing when positions are protected and when they are not is a holistic thing, combining minimap awareness, knowledge of the map itself, a sense for the flow of the individual battle, proactive and reactive movement, and a number of other things. If an enemy manages to get an angle on you, it's 90% them playing well or you playing poorly, with the remainder either being blind luck or a particular issue with the map.

It's first map, that has multiple levels, not just 2. Yeah, some maps have more than 2, but there is difference. When you're, let's say, on level 1, you can't be attacked from level 3. Because level 1 is covered by level 2, that is it's roof. So, at any moment you have to deal just with 2 levels max.

It's also so called "Light heaven". Lots of cover is good for brawling, yeah. But when map is maze - it's great way for Lights to attack and retreat. You should understand, that in most cases range attacks - is the best way to deal with Lights. I.e. when they try run away and you shoot their back via your Gauss. When they can hide and change position almost immediately - they become literally invulnerable. Emmmm. Even more invulnerable, than invulnerable. Super-invulnerable. And this ability can't be countered by anything else. Except may be another Light. And this map is big. There are many places to run away to. In most cases Lights can be cornered at some point. But not on this map.

Conclusion? It's one of these unbalanced maps, we don't need.

[pattonesque]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

It's first map, that has multiple levels, not just 2. Yeah, some maps have more than 2, but there is difference. When you're, let's say, on level 1, you can't be attacked from level 3. Because level 1 is covered by level 2, that is it's roof. So, at any moment you have to deal just with 2 levels max.

It's also so called "Light heaven". Lots of cover is good for brawling, yeah. But when map is maze - it's great way for Lights to attack and retreat. You should understand, that in most cases range attacks - is the best way to deal with Lights. I.e. when they try run away and you shoot their back via your Gauss. When they can hide and change position almost immediately - they become literally invulnerable. Emmmm. Even more invulnerable, than invulnerable. Super-invulnerable. And this ability can't be countered by anything else. Except may be another Light. And this map is big. There are many places to run away to. In most cases Lights can be cornered at some point. But not on this map.

Conclusion? It's one of these unbalanced maps, we don't need.

just shoot the light dude.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

It's first map, that has multiple levels, not just 2. Yeah, some maps have more than 2.

So it's not the first map with more than 2.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

When you're, let's say, on level 1, you can't be attacked from level 3. Because level 1 is covered by level 2, that is it's roof. So, at any moment you have to deal just with 2 levels max.

Yes that is called having cover. Other maps have that too.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

It's also so called "Light heaven". Lots of cover is good for brawling, yeah. But when map is maze - it's great way for Lights to attack and retreat.

Which is all well and good until you turn around and shoot the light.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

You should understand, that in most cases range attacks - is the best way to deal with Lights. I.e. when they try run away and you shoot their back via your Gauss. When they can hide and change position almost immediately - they become literally invulnerable.

Lie bolded for emphasis, considering that's literally not true.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

Emmmm. Even more invulnerable, than invulnerable. Super-invulnerable. And this ability can't be countered by anything else. Except may be another Light. And this map is big. There are many places to run away to. In most cases Lights can be cornered at some point. But not on this map.

JUST SHOOT THE LIGHT

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

Conclusion? It's one of these unbalanced maps, we don't need.

Obviously, it's unbalanced to you, because all you want is 1000 damage matches. We know you don't argue in good faith. You just want to win all the time so any threat to the wins you feel you are entitled to is "unbalanced".

Just. Shoot. The. Light.

[ScrapIron Prime]

His fears could be assuaged with but two skill tree points in Seismic Sensors. Oh look, here I am playing peek-a-mech on the new map and something is coming up behind me. I think I’ll turn around. Wow, that Piranha sure didn’t have much armor!

[pbiggz]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 December 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

His fears could be assuaged with but two skill tree points in Seismic Sensors. Oh look, here I am playing peek-a-mech on the new map and something is coming up behind me. I think I’ll turn around. Wow, that Piranha sure didn’t have much armor!

That would require introspection; the capacity to understand one's own shortcomings and work to overcome them. Since he apparently hasn't changed his own gameplay in any substantial way in 9 years, I think its safe to say he's not interested in that.

Just another sad demand to nerf everything he doesn't play and buff what he does.

[Vorpal Puppy]

This new map is easily my favorite of all maps in the game. I was ok with the changes to Canyon, hate the change to HPG (never vote for that map anymore), like the changes to Polar once it grew on me, and would revert the changes to Caustic.

I have been playing mostly lights and mediums with jump jets for quite a while now (love the loyalty Urbie with light peeps). And before you check my games played, I have 3 accounts, all upper Tier 2 or low Tier 1, so I see the same players / level of competition. I only comment from this account per code.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Oh well, first make some (incorrect) alibi comment that is on topic and then proceed with the usual ramblings about "OPness" of Lights.

MrMadguy said:

It's also so called "Light heaven".

Who besides yourself actually calls that map "Light heaven"? Please name at least 10 other players that do so and actually mention their reasoning behind that label ... because quite frankly your bias is too well established in order to deem anything you write as being in "good faith".

MrMadguy said:

Lots of cover is good for brawling, yeah.

Interestingly enough "brawling" isn't the main focus of the majority of Lights. Sounds like you're already starting to create yet another contradiction within your claims.

MrMadguy said:

But when map is maze - it's great way for Lights to attack and retreat.

Ah, so all maps must be a variant of either the "Open Terrain #1" or "Open Terrain #2" maps from the table top in order to please you?
Btw. a map having maze like features works just as well for other weight classes when it comes to attacking and then retreating

MrMadguy said:

You should understand, that in most cases range attacks - is the best way to deal with Lights.

~Huh?~ MW:O has nothing but range(d) attacks ... there simply are no (noteworthy) melee effects.

And to claim that most kills on Light mechs occur from greater distances would have to be substantiated with verifiable numbers (which as always you won't provide).

MrMadguy said:

I.e. when they try run away and you shoot their back via your Gauss.

Those poor mechs that don't have a Gauss rifle must surely be in trouble then ... interestingly enough I regularly see other weapon systems kill my Light mechs rather than a Gauss rifle ~shrug~

MrMadguy said:

When they can hide and change position almost immediately - they become literally invulnerable. Emmmm. Even more invulnerable, than invulnerable. Super-invulnerable.

Let's just say that none of my regularly driven Lights have felt "invunerable" the past few days whenever various OpFor players had zero trouble with killing me on that map .. regardless of whether or not I was using a Light with jumpjets or not.

MrMadguy said:

And this ability can't be countered by anything else. Except may be another Light.

Apart from reasonable awareness and the ability to actually hit the Light mech while it's within your field of view?

MrMadguy said:

And this map is big. There are many places to run away to. In most cases Lights can be cornered at some point. But not on this map.

Do I even want to ask which maps represent those "most cases" and how many mechs must actually make the attempt to corner those Lights ... all under the stipulation that the Light activley tries to continously run away?!

MrMadguy said:

Conclusion? It's one of these unbalanced maps, we don't need.

Stop talking in first person plural when making personal statements.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I will conclude, MrMadGuy, that this map shares commonality with maps like Rubelite, Canyon Network, and Hibernal in that a wolf pack of light mechs can do very well here, striking and running away in cover. That's going to happen, but its not unique to this map.

I will also repeat that if light mechs are a concern, you would do well to invest in two seismic sensor nodes so you have some advance warning and can turn as they are approaching. This works excellently on any mech that is not constantly moving forward. (Rocking back and forth in a peeking match actually allows you to get a seismic ping each time you reverse direction.)

[Gas Guzzler]

It didn't click right away because I have been playing other games, but I don't think I have seen nascar ONCE on this map. That's a big win!

[Meep Meep]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 December 2021 - 08:31 PM, said:

It didn't click right away because I have been playing other games, but I don't think I have seen nascar ONCE on this map. That's a big win!

Because its neatly divided by deep valleys which preclude running in circles. You have to advance or retreat along paths and ridgelines there isn't really any option for wide flanking. Even the center is broken up enough so that nascar is pretty much impossible unless you want to end up with your back to a cliff or wall.

[martian]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 December 2021 - 08:31 PM, said:

It didn't click right away because I have been playing other games, but I don't think I have seen nascar ONCE on this map. That's a big win!

The central structure simply physically does not allow for nascaring.

Another plus point for this map.

[YueFei]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 December 2021 - 10:15 AM, said:

I will conclude, MrMadGuy, that this map shares commonality with maps like Rubelite, Canyon Network, and Hibernal in that a wolf pack of light mechs can do very well here, striking and running away in cover. That's going to happen, but its not unique to this map.

I will also repeat that if light mechs are a concern, you would do well to invest in two seismic sensor nodes so you have some advance warning and can turn as they are approaching. This works excellently on any mech that is not constantly moving forward. (Rocking back and forth in a peeking match actually allows you to get a seismic ping each time you reverse direction.)

Trying to give MrMadguy advice is pointless. His biggest problem isn't the lack of resources or helpful advice, it's his own ego.

I mean, when it comes down to it, most people's biggest problem is their own ego. They can't own up to their own mistakes and shortcomings because their ego can't take it, so they gotta make up excuses as to why it's not really their own flaws that cause them to fail.

It's totally fine to suck at this game, it's only a game. When I get dunked on, I'll hold that L and congratulate the enemy. There's no shame in not being good at what is essentially recreation. People are not obligated to git gud. It's only a hobby. I sure as hell reserve the right to be as starchy as anybody else.

But what's sad is when people make mental pretzels to avoid admitting that they aren't that good at this game. Instead it's "this is OP" and "that is OP". That's what is truly pathetic.

[The6thMessenger]

I would say that, it's not that fun on other game modes but Conquest.

It looks like it has so much stuffs and features in it, like Francois got a bit crazy or something. There's to much visual noise for a straightforward engagement. It's immensity is better suited for modes that break the team apart, when you just have to deal only a few mechs at once than all of them from an incredibly complex landscape.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 December 2021 - 12:30 AM.