114 replies to this topic

[Akamia Terizen]

During unit training today, I actually got to be a sniper on HPG, a role I almost never play. I was in a stock Warhawk Prime, the most sniper-capable ’Mech I own…

Yeah, I don’t think the snipers are doing a whole lot. The scenario was a whole lance of snipers on each team while everyone else got to play whatever they wanted, and the sniper lances spent most of their time plinking at each other and doing tickle damage because everyone else found cover in the center. I got one or two shots at the OpFor fighting in the center, and that was it.

I don’t know how well the enemy snipers performed, but if the fact they got completely overrun is any indication, I don’t think they did very well either.

Now, in fairness, we did have some high-level comp players on my team, but the fight just wasn’t happening anywhere the snipers could see them.

YMMV of course; from the sniper’s perspective, I’d probably defer to the experience of someone who actually performs the role on the regular, whereas I tend toward mid-range combat. My commander just put me on the sniper lance for that particular exercise. My QP experience thus far, however, tells me that snipers aren’t a big deal for me; it’s everyone else. I’ve only had a bad time with snipers once, and it was a pair of Marauder IIs with paired Gauss Rifles. I won’t let that happen twice.

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 01 April 2022 - 12:24 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

pbiggz, on 31 March 2022 - 04:36 AM, said:

Its literally not a snipefest. Its *able to be sniped on*. People complaining about it being a snipe fest are just mad they have to think about snipers at all. That's it. That's the thread.

You could also get on the wall in old HPG as well - just not in masses. Nice strawman. Try again

Edited by Weeny Machine, 01 April 2022 - 03:11 AM.

[pbiggz]

Weeny Machine, on 01 April 2022 - 03:11 AM, said:

You could also get on the wall in old HPG as well - just not in masses. Nice strawman. Try again

The wall on old HPG was not a major part of the game, you could get up there with small jumpers or a fast mech in like 2 specific spots, so, yeah, you don't get to just call it a "strawman". Do you even know what a strawman is?

[SFC174]

pbiggz, on 31 March 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

Old HPG does play very differently than new, mainly because it plays worse. Of the old bunch, it definitely was among the least bad but new HPG presents a vastly better experience.

Additionally, as mentioned before, players will vote for whatever gives them easy rewards/easy matches. Old HPG caters to mid ranged generalist builds and is hostile to snipers, so a vote for old HPG is a vote to nerf snipers for a match. Give players the power to do something that damaging, and they'll do it every time, even if they have a worse experience because of it. "It gets voted for alot" is not a rationale or excuse, its an expression of toxic player behaviour.

Your entire post is opinion - which is fine and people will disagree (vastly better? not IMO). Map choice is about what players like, which means it's opinions all the way down. But calling the act of voting for old HPG, even indirectly, "an expression of toxic player behavior"? Wow. Is voting for the new map an expression of virtuous player behavior then? Which maps should I not vote for to avoid being toxic?

I'm of the opinion that player choice is a good thing for the game. Not sure why people are so worried about letting people have more map options.

[pbiggz]

SFC174, on 01 April 2022 - 04:59 AM, said:

Your entire post is opinion - which is fine and people will disagree (vastly better? not IMO). Map choice is about what players like, which means it's opinions all the way down. But calling the act of voting for old HPG, even indirectly, "an expression of toxic player behavior"? Wow. Is voting for the new map an expression of virtuous player behavior then? Which maps should I not vote for to avoid being toxic?

I'm of the opinion that player choice is a good thing for the game. Not sure why people are so worried about letting people have more map options.

I majored in game design. I'm not talking out of my ***. This is a noted thing. If you give people a featureless grey square map with a single cover feature in the middle that is impossible to snipe on, or sneak up behind people with lights, people will load up their midrange nascar mechs, and vote for it every time.

This happens in other games too. The sordid state of modern world of warcraft is mostly a result of people playing the game in a damaging fashion; a phenomenon the game itself incentivizes heavily. For instance access to important gear is held behind a crafting requirement, and the costs can be so high, players are incentivized to buy wow tokens (real money transaction for gold), which further drives up the price of that valuable gear.

It's the designer's responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen. Give people the option to play HPG, and they'll pull out their old builds, and vote for it every time. Not because its better than the old map, but because it has a fairly high chance of invalidating 2-3 enemy mechs right off the bat.

That's not an opinion, that's a noted phenomenon.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 31 March 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

Old HPG does play very differently than new, mainly because it plays worse. Of the old bunch, it definitely was among the least bad but new HPG presents a vastly better experience.

Additionally, as mentioned before, players will vote for whatever gives them easy rewards/easy matches. Old HPG caters to mid ranged generalist builds and is hostile to snipers, so a vote for old HPG is a vote to nerf snipers for a match. Give players the power to do something that damaging, and they'll do it every time, even if they have a worse experience because of it. "It gets voted for alot" is not a rationale or excuse, its an expression of toxic player behaviour.

If you prefer new HPG that's fine, it's your opinion.

Players vote for easy matches? Prove it. Show your analytics.

Old HPG was pretty good for mid-range builds, that is true. Does that mean it's a "vote to nerf snipers for a match"? Of course not, that is just more of your bizarre logic, trying to twist everything to meet your narrative.

A vote for mid-range is simply a vote for mid-range. It does not represent a vote to "nerf" snipers, or brawlers, or poptarts, or anything else.

Nor is it "toxic". People don't have to vote for sniper maps every single time, just to make you happy.

The fact that most people prefer mid-range maps isn't even surprising, as mid-range maps are the most healthy compromise. They provide the most flexibility in terms of viable builds. You can do alright with a long-range build, or a short-range build, on a mid-range map. Most QP maps should be designed with mid-range firing lines in mind, and mid should be favored over extreme range or close range situations. QP isn't the place for highly specialized or situational builds.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 05:43 AM, said:

If you prefer new HPG that's fine, it's your opinion.

Players vote for easy matches? Prove it. Show your analytics.

Old HPG was pretty good for mid-range builds, that is true. Does that mean it's a "vote to nerf snipers for a match"? Of course not, that is just more of your bizarre logic, trying to twist everything to meet your narrative.

A vote for mid-range is simply a vote for mid-range. It does not represent a vote to "nerf" snipers, or brawlers, or poptarts, or anything else.

You literally admit old hpg caters to midrange builds. You admit it. How can you post this **** with a straight face, saying that old HPG doesn't nerf snipers, then saying in the same breath that its good because its better for midrange builds. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You admit old HPG is hostile to long range builds and thats why you like it then you say "its not hostile to long range builds" in the same breath.

Thats called lying.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 05:43 AM, said:

Nor is it "toxic". People don't have to vote for sniper maps every single time, just to make you happy.

The fact that most people prefer mid-range maps isn't even surprising, as mid-range maps are the most healthy compromise. They provide the most flexibility in terms of viable builds. You can do alright with a long-range build, or a short-range build, on a mid-range map. Most QP maps should be designed with mid-range firing lines in mind, and mid should be favored over extreme range or close range situations. QP isn't the place for highly specialized or situational builds.

QP is literally the place for everything. It is the only queue that matters and every valid build needs a chance to perform. Given we can't decide exactly what mech plays on which map, every map needs to present options for all valid builds. Im sorry it's so difficult for you to understand that.

You are not entitled to not be sniped. You have to earn not being sniped, by being better at the game. Same as anything else. You arent entitled to not have your spine ripped out by a light, or your face melted by a brawler. You earn those things by understanding what those builds and strategies are and mitigating them with your own choices. You don't get to hawk off your own responsibility as a player by saying "its the map's fault, bring the old ****** one back".

Edited by pbiggz, 01 April 2022 - 05:57 AM.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 05:52 AM, said:

You literally admit old hpg caters to midrange builds. You admit it. How can you post this **** with a straight face, saying that old HPG doesn't nerf snipers, then saying in the same breath that its good because its better for midrange builds. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You admit old HPG is hostile to long range builds and thats why you like it then you say "its not hostile to long range builds" in the same breath.

Thats called lying.



QP is literally the place for everything. It is the only queue that matters and every valid build needs a chance to perform. Given we can't decide exactly what mech plays on which map, every map needs to present options for all valid builds. Im sorry it's so difficult for you to understand that.

You are not entitled to not be sniped. You have to earn not being sniped, by being better at the game. Same as anything else. You arent entitled to not have your spine ripped out by a light, or your face melted by a brawler. You earn those things by understanding what those builds and strategies are and mitigating them with your own choices. You don't get to hawk off your own responsibility as a player by saying "its the map's fault, bring the old ****** one back".

It's almost impossible to design a map that is 100% balanced for every playstyle. Old HPG was a little better for mid-range. So what? That is not talking out of both sides of my mouth. What a strange thing to say.

New HPG, obviously favors snipers very heavily over both mid-range or short-range. Do you deny that, or are you trying to argue that it is a perfectly balanced map? Bear in mind, saying that "there are counters to snipers" is not the same as claiming that it is a perfectly balanced map for every playstyle. So, which one is it?

Just look at the video from the cauldron where they were trying to show that it wasn't all snipe... but then the wall snipers got top damage in the match.

"Given we can't decide exactly what mech plays on which map, every map needs to present options for all valid builds."

Yes, that's what I just explained to you. Now you need to actually look at the maps and see if they present options for all valid builds. Then, maybe you will finally understand why old HPG was better, and why people voted for it.

You aren't entitled to maps that heavily favor one playstyle over all others. Get over it. Learn to play the game. Snipe is not the only valid playstyle.

[DaZur]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 05:52 AM, said:

You are not entitled to not be sniped. You have to earn not being sniped, by being better at the game. Same as anything else. You arent entitled to not have your spine ripped out by a light, or your face melted by a brawler. You earn those things by understanding what those builds and strategies are and mitigating them with your own choices. You don't get to hawk off your own responsibility as a player by saying "its the map's fault, bring the old ****** one back".

Players get caught up in their own little worlds sometimes and don't understand that not liking something because you "don't like it" and not liking something because it's "irreparably broken" are two vastly different things.

I don't like LRMers... Not because they are imbalanced and irredeemable but because I find them frustrating to play against and counter. (It's the way I play and the class of mech I pilot,,, but I digress). It's MY fault that they are what they are... not the folks that pilot LRM mechs.

Yes, I'd love for all terrain to be flattened and obstacles removed so I can play the way "I" want to play... So it's on "ME" to figure out how to deal with it.

Sadly, this is a societal issue and not exclusive to MWO. If you see yourself as a victim... That's all you will ever be.

Edited by DaZur, 01 April 2022 - 06:10 AM.

[SFC174]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 05:08 AM, said:

I majored in game design. I'm not talking out of my ***. This is a noted thing. If you give people a featureless grey square map with a single cover feature in the middle that is impossible to snipe on, or sneak up behind people with lights, people will load up their midrange nascar mechs, and vote for it every time.

This happens in other games too. The sordid state of modern world of warcraft is mostly a result of people playing the game in a damaging fashion; a phenomenon the game itself incentivizes heavily. For instance access to important gear is held behind a crafting requirement, and the costs can be so high, players are incentivized to buy wow tokens (real money transaction for gold), which further drives up the price of that valuable gear.

It's the designer's responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen. Give people the option to play HPG, and they'll pull out their old builds, and vote for it every time. Not because its better than the old map, but because it has a fairly high chance of invalidating 2-3 enemy mechs right off the bat.

That's not an opinion, that's a noted phenomenon.

Ahh, the argument from authority fallacy, or maybe more of a credentials fallacy. Noted for future reference. Whatever class you took, this is still your opinion because like the rest of us you don't have any data. You're making assumptions about the opinions, motivations and feelings of other players without any actual knowledge of them. You like New HPG better, that's great. You think it plays better, cool. Vote for it. That's what's great about the map selection system - people get to vote, and if you don't get what you want, you get an outsized vote the next time. Everyone gets to be happy occasionally.

Where I have a problem is when you try to portray your opinion as fact and objectivity while denigrating the opinion of anyone who disagrees with you. I suppose it's human nature to dismiss, vilify and mock persons you disagree with. But apparently we've reached the point where if players want to bring back a map you don't care for, they're labelled as toxic, acting against their own self-interest/enjoyment, having inferiority complexes, etc. Did I miss anything?

Take a hint from Nightbird. Yeah, he says he works in a very stats intensive job with high stakes, which could be considered an argument from authority. But he also brings the thunder when it comes to actually presenting verifiable statistical analyses based upon data we all have access to. I've disagreed with his conclusions on some things, but when he brings the simulation and it matches reality, you gotta swallow your pride and admit you're probably wrong. If you want to say a map objectively plays better, you better define what "plays better" means and then bring some data to back it up. Otherwise, it's just your opinion which stinks just like everyone else's. I'm not asserting one version of HPG is better than another. Neither was the original poster. I just say they're different and I like variety.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

It's almost impossible to design a map that is 100% balanced for every playstyle. Old HPG was a little better for mid-range. So what? That is not talking out of both sides of my mouth. What a strange thing to say.

And it was extremely hostile to long range. You're not talking out of both sides of your mouth this time, you're just lying by omission.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

New HPG, obviously favors snipers very heavily over both mid-range or short-range.

It doesn't favour it heavily, it makes it possible at all. After 7 years of no snipers I understand that this is a shock to you, but as I said before, you aren't entitled to not be sniped.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

Do you deny that, or are you trying to argue that it is a perfectly balanced map?

Lexical chicanery is not a substitute for an actual argument.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

Bear in mind, saying that "there are counters to snipers" is not the same as claiming that it is a perfectly balanced map for every playstyle. So, which one is it?

If you made the argument that maybe we could have one or two more ramps up to the perches, and a bit of extra cover on the center, I might even agree with you. You aren't making that argument. You're saying you want old HPG back in "so players can choose", knowing full well they will always choose old HPG for the easy match. You know if they present that option more people will choose it and you will play new HPG less. You might as well just ask for it to be removed.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

Just look at the video from the cauldron where they were trying to show that it wasn't all snipe... but then the wall snipers got top damage in the match.

A single data point is not an argument, but, to entertain this, how many people are like you, spending their time wailing about the injustices of sniping rather than actually getting up on the perch and brawling them? If you roll over at the sight of a marauder II, the marauder II is probably gonna get top damage.

I don't know exactly what point it was that people decided the response to a meta shift was to double down on the old meta, and scream bloody murder when it didn't work.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

"Given we can't decide exactly what mech plays on which map, every map needs to present options for all valid builds."

Yes, that's what I just explained to you.

Wow. This was just explained to you. You evidently didn't understand it, so i'll say it in smaller words.

You can't predict what map you'll get. So either your mech needs to perform on all maps, or each map needs to give space for any mech to perform. You are expressly asking for a map that does not give space for snipers to perform. You're expressly asking for it.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

Now you need to actually look at the maps and see if they present options for all valid builds. Then, maybe you will finally understand why old HPG was better, and why people voted for it.

Old HPG doesn't offer options for sniping. The game literally forbids you to know what map you're going to play next, so if maps are in the rotation that invalidate sniping, people will not use snipers.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:08 AM, said:

You aren't entitled to maps that heavily favor one playstyle over all others. Get over it. Learn to play the game. Snipe is not the only valid playstyle.

**** you. You are the one who's asking for a map that heavily favours midrange over sniping. You, not me. Disingenuous disingenuous disingenuous.

SFC174, on 01 April 2022 - 06:13 AM, said:

Stuff

No counterargument. Im sorry your mad.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 April 2022 - 06:22 AM.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

Lexical chicanery is not a substitute for an actual argument.

Please, explain why my question represents lexical chicanery.

Maps should be balanced, end of story. Better balance = a better map.

You're looking for maps where snipe is the only option. That's why you refuse to answer the question. New HPG obviously favors snipe over other playstyles. Everybody knows it - it's common knowledge.

Old HPG favored mid range over snipe. Absolutely true. But it represented a better balance, where more playstyles were viable, as compared to new HPG which heavily favors snipe.

There are already enough QP maps that favor snipe. There are also a few that favor mid range. There are zero that favor true short range builds over mid or long range.

Get over it, move on. There is more than 1 playstyle. Stop rolling over & giving up whenever you encounter a short range or mid range mech at less than 1000m.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

Please, explain why my question represents lexical chicanery.

Maps should be balanced, end of story. Better balance = a better map.

The options you presented were

A: New HPG is heavily sniper favoured: which is a lie

and

B: New HPG is perfect: which is also untrue. None of the maps are perfect and there are improvements that could be done to all of them, old and new.

You are trying to back me into a corner.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

You're looking for maps where snipe is the only option. That's why you refuse to answer the question. New HPG obviously favors snipe over other playstyles. Everybody knows it - it's common knowledge.

That's a ******* lie. We've explained why its a lie. You can't just repeat a lie and not expect me to point out that its a lie.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

Old HPG favored mid range over snipe. Absolutely true. But it represented a better balance, where more playstyles were viable, as compared to new HPG which heavily favors snipe.

That's also a ******* lie. Again. You can't just repeat a lie. Stop.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

There are already enough QP maps that favor snipe. There are also a few that favor mid range. There are zero that favor true short range builds over mid or long range.

That's also made up? Most of the maps are pretty good about letting all playstyles compete. There are issues with new caustic, that's about it.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:33 AM, said:

Get over it, move on. There is more than 1 playstyle. Stop rolling over & giving up whenever you encounter a short range or mid range mech at less than 1000m.

Did I once say brawlers were overpowered? Where did this come from? It came from nowhere because you are taking my own words and turning them into yet another lie.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 April 2022 - 06:39 AM.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 06:38 AM, said:

The options you presented were

A: New HPG is heavily sniper favoured: which is a lie

and

B: New HPG is perfect: which is also untrue. None of the maps are perfect and there are improvements that could be done to all of them, old and new.

You are trying to back me into a corner.




That's a ******* lie. We've explained why its a lie. You can't just repeat a lie and not expect me to point out that its a lie.



That's also a ******* lie. Again. You can't just repeat a lie. Stop.



That's also made up? Most of the maps are pretty good about letting all playstyles compete. There are issues with new caustic, that's about it.



Did I once say brawlers were overpowered? Where did this come from? It came from nowhere because you are taking my own words and turning them into yet another lie.

New HPG heavily favors snipers - everyone knows it. Stop lying about it just because you only know how to snipe.

You even tacitly admitted that the community voted for old HPG more often than new HPG. But, you presented this as some sort of anti-sniper conspiracy, rather than simply admitting that old HPG was a great map, with great balance, which produced fun matches for everyone involved.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:48 AM, said:

New HPG heavily favors snipers - everyone knows it. Stop lying about it just because you only know how to snipe.

Who said I snipe? I have a couple of sniper mechs I run from time to time but my most run mech is a double UAC10 double ERPPC highlander IIC, a pulse laser summoner and a heavy laser orion IIC

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:48 AM, said:

You even tacitly admitted that the community voted for old HPG more often than new HPG.

I don't tacitly admit this. its not a confession. People would vote for it more because it sidelines a bunch of builds and makes matches easier for people who are unwilling to react to snipers with anything but rage.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:48 AM, said:

But, you presented this as some sort of anti-sniper conspiracy, rather than simply admitting that old HPG was a great map, with great balance, which produced fun matches for everyone involved.

You don't like new HPG because you can be sniped on it. You like old HPG because you couldn't be sniped on it. You are consistently lying about your motivations.

Im not interested in arguing further with you given you are consistently lying about your motivations and consistently alleging mine are improper. When you decide to stop lying, we can talk.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 April 2022 - 06:54 AM.

[Curccu]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 06:53 AM, said:

You don't like new HPG because you can be sniped on it. You like old HPG because you couldn't be sniped on it. You are consistently lying about your motivations.

Well you could snipe on old HPG and people did, just wasn't that easy to get that direwolf up on the wall without jjs.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 06:53 AM, said:

Who said I snipe? I have a couple of sniper mechs I run from time to time but my most run mech is a double UAC10 double ERPPC highlander IIC, a pulse laser summoner and a heavy laser orion IIC



I don't tacitly admit this. its not a confession. People would vote for it more because it sidelines a bunch of builds and makes matches easier for people who are unwilling to react to snipers with anything but rage.




You don't like new HPG because you can be sniped on it. You like old HPG because you couldn't be sniped on it. You are consistently lying about your motivations.

Im not interested in arguing further with you given you are consistently lying about your motivations and consistently alleging mine are improper. When you decide to stop lying, we can talk.

lol, nice try. You're obviously the one with improper motives here. But, feel free to give up, if ad-hominem attacks are all that you have left.

[pattonesque]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 06:48 AM, said:

New HPG heavily favors snipers - everyone knows it. Stop lying about it just because you only know how to snipe.

New HPG has powerful spots for snipers but their cover is isolated and obvious, there is a lot of cover in the center for brawlers, and flankers have a bunch of routes to jump them. I brawl all the time on new HPG and while I have to be aware of snipers I'm not oppressed by them. which is, well, how it should be.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 07:09 AM, said:

lol, nice try. You're obviously the one with improper motives here. But, feel free to give up, if ad-hominem attacks are all that you have left.

You want the map that nerfs snipers. I want the map that lets them perform.
You want the map where the walls are inaccessible to all but a few light gimmick mechs. I want the map where there are lots of avenues to advance up the walls for snipers and countersnipers.

You want to never worry about being sniped. I think im not entitled to not worry about sniping.

Look in the ******* mirror.

[Extra Guac]

pattonesque, on 01 April 2022 - 07:12 AM, said:

New HPG has powerful spots for snipers but their cover is isolated and obvious, there is a lot of cover in the center for brawlers, and flankers have a bunch of routes to jump them. I brawl all the time on new HPG and while I have to be aware of snipers I'm not oppressed by them. which is, well, how it should be.

The walls are an elevated sniper position that literally goes all the way around the entire map. So, it's not obvious, because a team can set up snipers all over the walls, and cover each side of the map. If there was only 1 wall section in 1 specific part of the map, then your point would be valid.

It's also not really isolated because they can quickly drop down from the wall if they're rushed, and rejoin their team on the low ground. So, it's nearly as sniper-friendly as a map could possibly be.

That's nice that you brawl all the time. But, I would be willing to bet that if you dropped 100 times on that map in short range, mid range, and long range builds, your average results would be much better with the long range builds.