247 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 July 2022 - 04:16 PM, said:

Fixing it by making a better weapon isn't really fixing it so much as moving the goal posts. Especially if roles can't be effectively carved out for the current PPCs. PPC+Capacitors is one of the many things that imo don't translate really well.

Not saying it isn't possible just incredulous that they fix anything or really add anything. IMO, Yeonne was the one that suggested PPCs be effectively charge up lasers that have an incredibly short beam (0.3s or something short like that) and I still like that idea over just making PPCs+Capacitor just Gauss version of PPCs to match the normal PPCs which are just like Autocannons.

PPC Capacitor would be just like Artemised missiles, except now they deal bonus damage, do more heat, and uses gauss charge-up mechanic. Not really a hard thing to do.

I'm just highly opposed with the bonus damage on PPCs, seemed to me that it's just power-creeping, self-serving BS. This bonus damage is really like what PGI did before, that we all criticized, scorned, and laughed at them for thinking that PPC is just exclusively for sniping. The complaint about the LGR just sounds more like scapegoating, when they really just want a more powerful PPC to serve their purposes, on the meta-game they seem like pushing or denying on everyone else.

Having a capacitor variant would be something more excusable, and more understandable to what they are trying to accomplish -- it's high damage, it's hot, it's slow.

Navid A1, on 18 June 2022 - 08:48 PM, said:

PPC reasoning: Currently 3x PPC competes with 2x HPPC too much (and loses unless there are heavy quirks involved). Lower number of PPCs fired with no penalty allows us to further boost them to be decent in single or double PPC combos without stepping over HPPCs

I think why it encroaches on the HPPC is less about it's damage, but more about it's mechanic. Dedicated PPCs always had been about the shoot-and-scoot, that which it shares with the HPPC. You ought to be landing your shots carefully, so the cooldown difference isn't really much of a factor -- if anything, a hindrance because you build up heat faster.

Restricting PPCs to 20 damage a pop, while still sharing the same purposes as with HPPC, means that it'll lose even more -- as why do 20 damage a pop, when you can do 30 damage a pop, while doing the same things.

As in, if you want decent single or double PPC combos, it should probably do something different than the role of the double HPPC.

Navid A1, on 18 June 2022 - 08:48 PM, said:

ERPPC reasoning: Currently they are on a crutch of either LGR or huge quirks to compete against Clan ERPPC. Linking to LGR in heat penalty allows us to better boost ERPPCs themselves without also boosting a powerful combo so they are more viable on their own and on more mechs (including more medium mechs)

LGR reasoning: Mainly viable in combination with ERPPC. goal is to make them viable on their own and in combination with other weapon systems as well.

I think the problem is a lot more because C-ERPPC, being a 6-ton weapon that deals 15 damage total, and the problem arises when you're trying to balance IS-ERPPC and LGR with that in mind. Of course you're going to hit a snag, trying to boost IS-ERPPC vs C-ERPPC, of course it cascades into the problem of the ERPPC-LGR mix.

Why not, instead, just nerf the C-ERPPC to something like 12 damage with 4s CD and 11.5 heat? You make it closer to IS ERPPC, without power-creeping ERPPC-LGR combo.

LGR is in a good place TBF, yeah sure it's a crutch, it's padding, but there's not really a lot you can do for it that doesn't encroach on the roles of other weapons.

LGR can either go DPS or alpha, problem is that it encroaches on the current weapons that already has those roles. Boost DPS, it encroaches on AC10 -- boost alpha, then it's just a weaker Gauss that you might as well upgrade to. Range? Velocity? These are incredibly niche advantages anyways, and if anything the max-range increase with the Gauss means that it's still adequate at those ranges anyways.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2022 - 07:45 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 July 2022 - 07:10 PM, said:

PPC Capacitor would be just like Artemised missiles, except now they deal bonus damage, do more heat, and uses gauss charge-up mechanic. Not really a hard thing to do.

I never said it was hard, I said it was broken if implemented like in TT.
How do you keep a LPPC+Capacitor from encroaching on PPC territory or PPC encroaching on Heavy PPC territory? Charge-up imo isn't a good enough excuse for some serious damage increases, maybe if it is just splash damage it would be fine but that also seems like sort of something that would also just be ignored (not enough risk for the reward) but who knows.

While snub nose I do think were power creep, I don't think PPCs were in a great place after they made the heat dissipation boost/heat capacity nerf way back when :shocker: but I do think that other changes that have been made have definitely changed the game. Back then Heavy Gauss and IS UAC10s iirc were somewhat the meta, now they are jokes which suggests some sort of power creep is happening, but idk if it is PPCs that is the source of the issue.

I suspect it is sort of related to survival quirks but that might just be me.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 July 2022 - 07:29 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 July 2022 - 07:24 PM, said:

How do you keep a LPPC+Capacitor from encroaching on PPC territory or PPC encroaching on Heavy PPC territory? Charge-up imo isn't a good enough excuse for some serious damage increases, maybe if it is just splash damage it would be fine but that also seems like sort of something that would also just be ignored (not enough risk for the reward) but who knows.

Kind of the problem with PPCs in general, I'm afraid -- they always were about shoot-and-scoot, so they will always tread on one another unless that is changed, kind of like how LPPCs became the DPS PPCs.

But, honestly, I do see the use of PPC-Caps on the lights, on the matter of accessibility, allowing them to function as PPC snipers when they can't before.

How do I balance PPC-Caps? Honestly first, instead of +5 damage-heat, I'd do it with 50% damage-heat instead, so that the LPPC is at 8.25 damage for 4 tons, while HPPC is at 22.5 damage at 11 tons -- this is on the mind of something like using LPPC-CAP to pad a standard HPPC - that deals 23.5 damage for 14 tons, instead of 25 damage. Seriously the LPPC-Cap can be incredibly broken.

With sole ppc-cap mix, I'd tweak the GH limit of the PPC-Caps around 15 to 20 damage, so that the high-alpha is instead reserved on the non-caps. Capacitored ERPPC and HPPC is at 1 GH limit, and 2 on all other PPCs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 July 2022 - 07:24 PM, said:

While snub nose I do think were power creep, I don't think PPCs were in a great place after they made the heat dissipation boost/heat capacity nerf way back when :shocker: but I do think that other changes that have been made have definitely changed the game. Back then Heavy Gauss and IS UAC10s iirc were somewhat the meta, now they are jokes which suggests some sort of power creep is happening, but idk if it is PPCs that is the source of the issue.

I would say that it's the paradigm as the source of the issue. It's always about min-maxing stuffs, exploiting and leveraging mechanics -- and so they built around those, and inevitably the meta-game became about breaking balance.

Here's something they could do on the UACs, they could rebalance them without the jam. What they could do on the HGR is reduce the slot by 1, so that it can be put on Light Engines. Same with LB20X. But no, they would like to keep it as unwieldy, so that they can retain it's supposed advantages set back by disadvantages.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2022 - 08:19 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Haven't long range sniper builds gotten enough buffs from literally every aspect of the game, including maps?

I mean, OMG, when is it gonna be enough?

Why are you not focusing on under powered metas like mid-range brawling or lock-on weapons?

[Curccu]

Vellron2005, on 28 July 2022 - 10:26 AM, said:

Haven't long range sniper builds gotten enough buffs from literally every aspect of the game, including maps?

I mean, OMG, when is it gonna be enough?

Why are you not focusing on under powered metas like mid-range brawling or lock-on weapons?

Well snubbies, light, normal and heavy peeps aren't really sniper weapons with their weak range and velocity.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 July 2022 - 08:15 PM, said:

Kind of the problem with PPCs in general, I'm afraid -- they always were about shoot-and-scoot, so they will always tread on one another unless that is changed, kind of like how LPPCs became the DPS PPCs.

I still think it is possible to buck that trend just like LPPCs did. It is just unfortunately PPCs share a similar place as AC10s where they need to be some sort of hybrid.

The6thMessenger, on 27 July 2022 - 08:15 PM, said:

I would say that it's the paradigm as the source of the issue. It's always about min-maxing stuffs, exploiting and leveraging mechanics -- and so they built around those, and inevitably the meta-game became about breaking balance.

I'd argue another part is that there is just too many variables, too many quirks, too much everything. Stuff needs to be paired down. Then there is the separate conversation about too many buffs and not enough nerfs to go along with things and honestly, not enough stuff done incrementally.

The6thMessenger, on 27 July 2022 - 08:15 PM, said:

Here's something they could do on the UACs, they could rebalance them without the jam. What they could do on the HGR is reduce the slot by 1, so that it can be put on Light Engines. Same with LB20X. But no, they would like to keep it as unwieldy, so that they can retain it's supposed advantages set back by disadvantages.

I would argue that still wouldn't fix the Heavy Gauss, but it would definitely be a solid start.

Vellron2005, on 28 July 2022 - 10:26 AM, said:

Why are you not focusing on under powered metas like mid-range brawling or lock-on weapons?

Lock-on weapons can't be buffed without serious issues because the source of their troubles are foundational (ie lock-on mechanics are seriously borked in this game).

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 July 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

I still think it is possible to buck that trend just like LPPCs did. It is just unfortunately PPCs share a similar place as AC10s where they need to be some sort of hybrid.

You're right. That's why my approach with the PPCs would have been low heat. You use LPPC to burst, standard PPC to sustain.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 July 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

I'd argue another part is that there is just too many variables, too many quirks, too much everything. Stuff needs to be paired down. Then there is the separate conversation about too many buffs and not enough nerfs to go along with things and honestly, not enough stuff done incrementally.

Exactly my concern. See, min-maxing inevitably stacks the differences, so it immediately cascades when your weapons are incredibly pronounced and distinct from one another. I want things to be tighter and closer with one another, but people like their asymmetric balance.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 July 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

I would argue that still wouldn't fix the Heavy Gauss, but it would definitely be a solid start.

Well, I think it could stand having 1350m max-range, so that it's still dealing 15 damage outwards 672m meters, with 10 shots/ton so you can be a bit more liberal. To put that into perspective, current HGR is 15 damage only at 492m, the LGR and GR is at 810m outwards 2050m.

See, problem with HGR is that it's a bit of a niche because it's hard to put in anything, and when you do, you have to get in close. So why not make it able to better participate at a distance, is able to quickly reposition, and can do so more frequently due to ammo?

Yeah it deals almost as much as GR at ballpark distance, but that's a LOT of damage lost, as in incredibly inefficient -- that only means that you aren't as handicapped as before. As in if you compete with those distances consistently anyways, why not just use a GR?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 July 2022 - 05:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 28 July 2022 - 05:13 PM, said:

Well, I think it could stand having 1350m max-range, so that it's still dealing 15 damage outwards 672m meters, with 10 shots/ton so you can be a bit more liberal. To put that into perspective, current HGR is 15 damage only at 492m, the LGR and GR is at 810m outwards 2050m.

See, problem with HGR is that it's a bit of a niche because it's hard to put in anything, and when you do, you have to get in close. So why not make it able to better participate at a distance, is able to quickly reposition, and can do so more frequently due to ammo?

Yeah it deals almost as much as GR at ballpark distance, but that's a LOT of damage lost, as in incredibly inefficient -- that only means that you aren't as handicapped as before. As in if you compete with those distances consistently anyways, why not just use a GR?

I'd argue for having a higher optimal range (and maybe a slight increase to max 450/900 or 500/1000 would be a nice starting point imo). I get that it did have damage ramp down like the Snub Nose in TT, I just don't think it translates well in this game when we already have damage ramp down. Just give it higher optimal range so that it has bite out to longer range, that and/or remove the stupid reticle shake afterwards so it can pair with other weapons, they are already large and heavy so what exactly is the expectation that they are going to mix with to be abused or too powerful (especially given there is already a way around it).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 July 2022 - 05:25 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

Vellron2005, on 28 July 2022 - 10:26 AM, said:

Haven't long range sniper builds gotten enough buffs from literally every aspect of the game, including maps?

I mean, OMG, when is it gonna be enough?

Why are you not focusing on under powered metas like mid-range brawling or lock-on weapons?

Mid range ACs are in a solid place, and every single PPC except the ERPPC is mid range, MRMs are still plenty good at racking up big damage numbers. I haven't personally tried mid range lasvom in a hot minute, but I'd be surprised if it was what you were referencing.

[VikingN1nja]

[VikingN1nja]

Could start with allowing light ppc + light gauss if it already isn't.

Perhaps allow HSL on specific chassis to allow 2 PPC + 2 Gauss.(Deathstrike, muahahaha!)

If anything the heat spike could be greatly reduced. Also event queue could have some sniper events with ghost heat disabled.

[JediPanther]

Easiest solution is to make their cd as bad as narc.
hppc-8.5 seconds.
erppc 7.5 seconds
ppc 7 seconds
lppc 5.5 seconds
snub 6 seconds

[MyriadDigits]

JediPanther, on 29 July 2022 - 02:51 PM, said:

Easiest solution is to make their cd as bad as narc.
hppc-8.5 seconds.
erppc 7.5 seconds
ppc 7 seconds
lppc 5.5 seconds
snub 6 seconds

You could just say you want them to remove PPCs entirely, because that's basically what you suggested.

[The6thMessenger]

JediPanther, on 29 July 2022 - 02:51 PM, said:

Easiest solution is to make their cd as bad as narc.
hppc-8.5 seconds.
erppc 7.5 seconds
ppc 7 seconds
lppc 5.5 seconds
snub 6 seconds

Dude, that's like the pre-cauldron PGI **** up -- March 2021 patch, except worse because it didn't come with stupidly increased damage.

[Gezkill]

The6thMessenger, on 27 July 2022 - 07:10 PM, said:

PPC Capacitor would be just like Artemised missiles, except now they deal bonus damage, do more heat, and uses gauss charge-up mechanic. Not really a hard thing to do.

Ah neato way to make PPCs even worse.

[Saved By The Bell]

5 snubPPC Awesome was pretty good, better than long range sniper Awesome.

Except the fact, you need to go close with this big and weak assault.

I think Snubs should be in current state, because I never used them before. Now they OK on some PPC builds.

If Snubs Urbi too good, just debuff him, but I dont see them much In Tier 2 (+-) fights.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 30 July 2022 - 04:59 AM.

[Curccu]

Gezkill, on 30 July 2022 - 12:17 AM, said:

Ah neato way to make PPCs even worse.

Yes and no and it would be optional...
If I wanna poptart with 2xHPPC grasshopper I'd rather have it deal 40 damage than 30, charge is not an issue because up time with JJs is already short or if you are hovering in the air for a week you get shot...

[The6thMessenger]

Saved By The Bell, on 30 July 2022 - 04:56 AM, said:

I think Snubs should be in current state, because I never used them before. Now they OK on some PPC builds.

If Snubs Urbi too good, just debuff him, but I dont see them much In Tier 2 (+-) fights.

The one that does 15 damage (2.5 + 10 + 2.5) close range for 6 tons, like CERPPC but short range.

The Cauldron guys are power-creeping lately. Could have just nerfed CERPPC to 12 damage, but no, they really like their abusable min-maxing.

Gezkill, on 30 July 2022 - 12:17 AM, said:

Ah neato way to make PPCs even worse.

That's just gauss with more heat.

And the +Damage +Heat is literally how PPC-Cap works in TT.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 July 2022 - 04:50 PM.

[Reverend Flashback]

I don't think long range loadouts need any buffing right now.
And pls stop putting ppc quirks on absolutely everything and neglecting all other weapon types.
It's imo rather annoying to see so many variants shoehorned into the gauss/ppc niche, just because someone seem to like it.

Rather take a look into non ultra acs, because except for stacking 2s, basically no one uses those for a reason...
Also every single missile type, except for mrms, utterly sucks.
I know a very vocal part of the community downright hates lock on weapons, but I don't care.
They are in the game and should have some viability.
Yet they are basically unusable since everyone has either ecm or radar skills.

That's stuff that needs to be looked at, and not how to bolster the direct fire long range meta further.

[Sjorpha]

Here's a question for the cauldron: does pgi give you any actual data on weapon and mech performance to work with?

Because these discussions are pretty tiresome when everyone is just guessing, going by feel or trying to theorise but no one actually knows how the weapons perform because there are no statistics to look at.

It's the same with mechs, we only have the incredibly blunt stats per weight class but no actual data about the performance of individual mechs.

We could look at the global winrates for the ecm urbie variant since the snub buff to see if it has overperformed or not and then if that's the case we'd be able to narrow it down to the variant itself or snubs by cross referencing weapon stats. Is it overperforming though? Are snubs overperforming? I can say how they feel, with some effort i can sort out my own data on those mechs and weapons, but to be honest i have no way of confirming whether those feelings are accurate or whether my data is representative (i might just be good or bad at playing those mechs and weapons).

So no one knows anything, but everyone has an opinion. The problem is that humans in general really really suck at guessing and making good assessments from experience or anecdotal evidence.

Basically this whole discussion could be so much easier with some more granular statistics.