128 replies to this topic

[Vyx]

IMO-

I agree the snub-nosed PPC has been over-tuned for all the reasons stated above. There is a reason why it is so pervasive right now (the "meta"), and why if you are not running it, you are relegating your mech to a disadvantage.

Current
Damage: 10 + 5 (as 2x 2.5 adjacent component splashes)
Heat: 7
Cooldown: 4
Tons: 6

I know this appeal will mean little to those who don't value lore, but the reason the snubbie was invented was to overcome the minimum range limitations of the regular PPC. As the story goes, field modifications were made to regular PPCs, stripping them of their muzzle-mounted "collimator", which was there for beam focusing and to shield the firing mech from electrical systems malfunctions due to its own PPC discharge. The result was a less focused beam, but one that could be used reliably within the minimum range.

What this would mean in game terms, in my opinion, would be:

Proposed
Damage: 7 + 7.5 (as 3x 2.5 adjacent component splashes)
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 4.5
Tons: 5.5

Reasoning: less pinpoint damage due to a less focused beam, slightly more heat due to missing shielding, slightly more cooldown due to the system being somewhat "rigged", and slightly less weight due to being a "chop job".

Alternatively, one could keep it as-is, and simply affect the firing mech (and allies nearby) with an enemy "ECM disruption" effect when fired for 1-2 seconds or so (like an enemy ECM mech was suddenly near). Basically, as noted in the lore, this would simulate the unshielded PPC discharge problem inherent to this type of field modification.

Thoughts?

Edited by Vyx, 20 July 2022 - 03:00 AM.

[caravann]

Vyx, on 15 July 2022 - 05:53 AM, said:

IMO-

I agree the snub-nosed PPC has been over-tuned for all the reasons stated above. There is a reason why it is so pervasive right now (the "meta"), and why if you are not running it, you are relegating your mech to a disadvantage.

Current
Damage: 10 + 5 (as 2x 2.5 adjacent component splashes)
Heat: 7
Cooldown: 4
Tons: 6

I know this appeal will mean little to those who don't value lore, but the reason the snubbie was invented was to overcome the minimum range limitations of the regular PPC. As the story goes, field modifications were made to regular PPCs, stripping them of their muzzle-mounted "collimator", which was there for beam focusing and to shield the firing mech from electrical systems malfunctions due to its own PPC discharge. The result was a less focused beam, but one that could be used reliably within the minimum range.

What this would mean in game terms, in my opinion, would be:

Proposed
Damage: 7 + 7.5 (as 3x 2.5 adjacent component splashes)
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 4.5
Tons: 5.5

Reasoning: less pinpoint damage due to a less focused beam, slightly more heat due to missing shielding, slightly more cooldown due to the system being somewhat "rigged", and slightly less weight due to being a "chop job".

Alternatively, one could keep it as-is, and simply affect the firing mech with an enemy "ECM disruption" effect when fired for 2-3 seconds or so (like an enemy ECM mech was near). Basically, as noted in the lore, this would simulate the unshielded PPC discharge problem inherent to this type of field modification.

Thoughts?

Yes, This is MWO, Snub nose ppc has splash effect while tabletop doesn't have any since ppc have limited short range and plays slower. To make it fair all mechs need to be reduced by 20 kph if going for pinpoínt 10 damage.

[An6ryMan69]

Snubs are right where they need to be now, so they actually get used.

They were pretty much garbage before.

I run them on about 8-10 of my 270+ mechs, so they are definitely NOT overpowered.

[GoodTry]

On the Cauldron discord someone suggested that snubs will see a ghost heat multiplier increase and a decrease to their max range (not their optimal range). That sounds like a good level of fix to me.

Coming back after a couple of months' break, it feels like QP has a good bit more short- and mid-range play. I'm really liking it. I'm guessing that's because people are using snubs right now, so I hope they don't nerf them too much.

More short/mid-range opportunities helps out MPLs, SRMs, and SL/ERSLs too, because it's easier to get into range without being out of position. It's like when they restore wolves to the ecosystem and all the sudden it makes the beavers return because the elk stop eating all the trees....

[Saved By The Bell]

I tried 2 snubs with 20ac on Cataphract.
Good but not great.

So it depends on mech and pilot.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

GoodTry, on 18 July 2022 - 06:25 AM, said:

On the Cauldron discord someone suggested that snubs will see a ghost heat multiplier increase and a decrease to their max range (not their optimal range). That sounds like a good level of fix to me.

Every single match that I can force myself to play lately tries to turn itself into SniperWarrior Online, but Snubs are the guns who need range chopped off.

Uh huh.

[GoatHILL]

Snubs are not OP at all.

[w0qj]

Just curious, what mech(s) were you using, and what weapons layout?

Edit: My recent very first (and only) Ace of Spades was on T4 QP,
MAD-6S with AC canon + 4x SNPPC (this was before July 2022 SNPPC ghost heat back down to max fire 2x with no ghost heat penalty).
https://mwomercs.com...ds/page__st__40

GoatHILL, on 20 July 2022 - 01:54 AM, said:

Snubs are not OP at all. ...

Edited by w0qj, 20 July 2022 - 02:53 AM.

[Maddermax]

Yeah, snubs are definitely overtuned at the moment, not by a lot, but by enough to make you rethink most other weapons.

My Urbie now has snubs rather than light PPCs, a friend made a Snub Anni, another made a snub Awesome, and we all made snub Hunchback 4H at as a joke build, and yet it's still surprisingly effective (thanks to energy quirks) despite it's low energy hard points.

It's not like you'd use it for every mech, but it's to the point where you'd consider it in a lot more places than other options.

[GoatHILL]

w0qj - WHM 6R with 6 snubs

Maddermax - Yep, they are not quite god mode but they are just over the top enough. I would take away some pinpoint and give them more splash damage, make the lbx ppc's.

Edited by GoatHILL, 20 July 2022 - 11:27 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Why are snub op?

[Maddermax]

lazorbeamz, on 20 July 2022 - 12:27 PM, said:

Why are snub op?

Two Snubs are basically an AC20, but with 5 splash damage for the pair, 40% better velocity, disables ECM, half the slots and, importantly, 5 tons lighter (once you include 3t ammo for the AC20). Sure, it’s 50% higher heat, buuuuut you have 5 tons for extra double heat sinks to mitigate that, and a lot of mechs have Energy heat quirks.

It’s still a short range weapon, so it’s not the best in every situation, but it’s a very strong option compared to small/medium lasers and AC10/20 ballistics. I do wonder how splash damage is calculated at long range, and weather that stays a flay amount or scales with weapon damage down to 0 at max range?

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Snubs are very strong right now, but I'd hardly call them OP, especially given how much more focus there is on mid-to-long range trading over brawling. If other short-range guns are underperforming, I'd say buff them to be competitive, AC20 included if need be.

...although, I have a sneaking suspicion that a large part of the current pushback against Snubs is the fact that Light 'mechs can use them well. Any time Lights get good guns, people immediately start screaming for nerfs.

[LordNothing]

people are just playing with new toys. it seems bad but wait till the novelty wears off to pull the rug out from under the weapon.

sort of makes the case for another weapons pack.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 July 2022 - 04:36 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

I'd rather have an AC20 than snubs, cuz an AC20 can keep popping long after the snubs are hot, and AC20 can be packed with light weight med lasers for extra punch.

What's best to pack with 2 snubs? Prolly 2 more snubs.

[Maddermax]

feeWAIVER, on 20 July 2022 - 04:56 PM, said:

I'd rather have an AC20 than snubs, cuz an AC20 can keep popping long after the snubs are hot, and AC20 can be packed with light weight med lasers for extra punch.

What's best to pack with 2 snubs? Prolly 2 more snubs.

feeWAIVER, on 20 July 2022 - 04:56 PM, said:

I'd rather have an AC20 than snubs, cuz an AC20 can keep popping long after the snubs are hot, and AC20 can be packed with light weight med lasers for extra punch.

What's best to pack with 2 snubs? Prolly 2 more snubs.

As mentioned above, the snubs allow you 5 extra tons of heat sinks, perhaps 4 if you drop light ferro for extra slots to fit them. It is hotter, but the heats still not bad, and they do more damage due to splash, has significantly more velocity so it’s easier to pin-point your shots or just hit at range, disrupts ECM, and has no ammo requirements, so no ammo explosions or running out, pot shot at 500m without worry. It all adds up to a stronger option, if you have to choose between the two.

If you have the tonnage though, you can go AC20 with two snubs on many mechs for 40 alpha, while double AC20 gets ghost heat.

[feeWAIVER]

Maddermax, on 20 July 2022 - 06:57 PM, said:

As mentioned above, the snubs allow you 5 extra tons of heat sinks, perhaps 4 if you drop light ferro for extra slots to fit them. It is hotter, but the heats still not bad, and they do more damage due to splash, has significantly more velocity so it’s easier to pin-point your shots or just hit at range, disrupts ECM, and has no ammo requirements, so no ammo explosions or running out, pot shot at 500m without worry. It all adds up to a stronger option, if you have to choose between the two.

If you have the tonnage though, you can go AC20 with two snubs on many mechs for 40 alpha, while double AC20 gets ghost heat.

Yeah I understand, I'd still pick an AC20. 1/3rd the Heat, and More Discreet, Baby.

[PocketYoda]

If snubs really are an issue lower their range.. make them like medium pulse.

[Meep Meep]

After playing with and against them more I still say the main offender is the weak ghost heat. The mechs that are really getting the most out of them are the ones that can mount six and do a 1~2 punch with them. Increase ghost heat so you can't do that anymore and most of the zomgsnubsop goes away. The light mechs that can mount two of them and be a real threat are basically those with ecm and jj and thats mainly the ecm urbie and to be honest its not all that strong unless you are a top player.

[lazorbeamz]

They need to reduce damage and increase heat on energy weapons.