128 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

I'd prefer 10+0+0, but just because I've been using snubs since they were only 10 damage for 10 heat. Anything with less direct damage I see as a nerf into LRM territory.

[GoatHILL]

Stop acting like you are only carrying one Snub everyone is boating them.

[Quintal Arwe]

I just want to say that I quite like the effect it has on gameplay. Maybe its not just the use of snub PPCs, but since they were changed, the matches i've seen have been more closer range affairs than prepatch which was mostly longer distance laser trading.

Edited by Quintal Arwe, 25 July 2022 - 12:58 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

actually i think SN-PPCs are sitting in about the right spot right now. then again i am not a "Brawl" player or gods forbid a meta tryhard crybaby. i tend towards builds that are just fun for me an screw what anyone else thinks (hence why i am proud to say that i love me some LRM (though perhaps being an Ex-MLRS operator has something to do with that))

i only have 1 mech right now that even uses them the Battlemaster HellSlinger i got from the Beach Party event. i'm not even using its PPC HSL qirk (i am running it with 2 SN-PPC, 1-MRM-10, 1 MRM-30 (the split is to keep that giant target box minimized))

they are useful enough but far from OP. honestly i think we are seeing more of them just because its something that got recently changed so that it isn't trash anymore.every time they do interesting changes to weapons you see them get used a good bit more for a while (well unless we are talking about the constant nerfs to LRM because of meta Crybabies who don't understand that they are the most countered weapon in the game).

honestly i think most if not all IS weapons are in a good place right now (i can't say anything about Clanners because i just don't tend to use em). the balance is about right. then again i also don't play Faction anymore (to toxic) and have no interest in comp or group drop (back when we still had those).

[w0qj]

Just curious...

1) Would MWO staff go for summer (August) holidays?

2) Would Cauldron decision makers go for summer (August) holidays?

The answers to above 2 questions may affect when we may see Snub Nose PPC balancing pass...

(At minimum, I personally would expect a slight increase in Ghost Heat penalty for SNPPC...)

[lazorbeamz]

8.5 direct damage and 2 splash?

Come on don't tread into auto cannon territory with this instant point damage

Things like light Gauss, ppc are going to obsolete auto cannon

Edited by lazorbeamz, 25 July 2022 - 01:29 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

lazorbeamz, on 25 July 2022 - 01:26 PM, said:

8.5 direct damage and 2 splash?

Come on don't tread into auto cannon territory with this instant point damage

Things like light Gauss, ppc are going to obsolete auto cannon

I... seem to be unable to follow your thoughts, care to elaborate?

[Quintal Arwe]

lazorbeamz, on 25 July 2022 - 01:26 PM, said:

8.5 direct damage and 2 splash?

Come on don't tread into auto cannon territory with this instant point damage

Things like light Gauss, ppc are going to obsolete auto cannon

The thing is (and I'm sure I'm not alone), I'm pairing them with autocannons. I see others pairing them with MRMs. Pre-patch I never saw much of a draw to using a snubnose, I'm still newish but a few months ago if I had to make a decision about a shorter range energy hardpoint, the medium pulse seemed to be the better choice at the time.

Edited by Quintal Arwe, 26 July 2022 - 12:59 AM.

[Urbie Connoisseur]

This may just be me, but an upper tier 5/lower tier 4, I find snubs extremely frustrating to use. Trying to use them against a light just gets me solo'd while missing literally nearly every single shot against them, even as another light, and against more agile mediums isn't much better. Outside of heavies and assaults in general, its also nearly impossible to hit anything moving within 100-150m or so (although that might have to do with them being mounted on the right arm with the RVN-3L), and against heavies and assaults up to 20 damage every 4 seconds hardly does jack. Even thinking about brawling a heavy or assault within 310m so you can even get that full 20 damage is a massive mistake.

[YueFei]

Marida Connoisseur, on 28 July 2022 - 09:32 AM, said:

This may just be me, but an upper tier 5/lower tier 4, I find snubs extremely frustrating to use. Trying to use them against a light just gets me solo'd while missing literally nearly every single shot against them, even as another light, and against more agile mediums isn't much better. Outside of heavies and assaults in general, its also nearly impossible to hit anything moving within 100-150m or so (although that might have to do with them being mounted on the right arm with the RVN-3L), and against heavies and assaults up to 20 damage every 4 seconds hardly does jack. Even thinking about brawling a heavy or assault within 310m so you can even get that full 20 damage is a massive mistake.

One thing that might be messing up your ability to hit moving targets within 100m to 150m is that MWO physics are wrong. In real life physics, your projectiles inherit your velocity vector. In MWO, they do not. This means that although your senses are telling you that due to relative motion (defined by your target's movement and your own), you think you need to lead the shot a lot more, but actually you only need to lead the shot based on the target's movement alone. This means you gotta try to ignore the relative motion and just look at the target's motion relative to the background.

If you play a space combat game with Newtonian mechanics where projectiles correctly inherit your velocity vector, then the aiming and deflection shooting become more intuitive.

Also, although the Snubnose PPC gets "billed" as a brawling weapon, when used mostly on its own (and not paired with, say, AC20) its big advantage is in its instantaneous PPFLD nature. To take full advantage you don't want to brawl, you want to abuse the instantaneous nature to minimize exposure. Particularly in combination with high mounts and jump jets.

[Nightbird]

YueFei, on 28 July 2022 - 09:55 AM, said:

One thing that might be messing up your ability to hit moving targets within 100m to 150m is that MWO physics are wrong. In real life physics, your projectiles inherit your velocity vector. In MWO, they do not. This means that although your senses are telling you that due to relative motion (defined by your target's movement and your own), you think you need to lead the shot a lot more, but actually you only need to lead the shot based on the target's movement alone. This means you gotta try to ignore the relative motion and just look at the target's motion relative to the background.

If you play a space combat game with Newtonian mechanics where projectiles correctly inherit your velocity vector, then the aiming and deflection shooting become more intuitive.

Also, although the Snubnose PPC gets "billed" as a brawling weapon, when used mostly on its own (and not paired with, say, AC20) its big advantage is in its instantaneous PPFLD nature. To take full advantage you don't want to brawl, you want to abuse the instantaneous nature to minimize exposure. Particularly in combination with high mounts and jump jets.

Not really... mechs move so slowly that even at 100kph the projectile would only increase or decrease in speed by 2-3% by inheriting momentum. Well within the margin of error if you're aiming at a target. It's not a plane or spaceship game where vehicles are traveling at 1000kph.

[YueFei]

Nightbird, on 28 July 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

Not really... mechs move so slowly that even at 100kph the projectile would only increase or decrease in speed by 2-3% by inheriting momentum. Well within the margin of error if you're aiming at a target. It's not a plane or spaceship game where vehicles are traveling at 1000kph.

Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine MWO physics had projectiles inherit your velocity vector. Take a mech going laterally 100kph, which is 27.7+ m/s. You're shooting at a stationary target that's 300 meters away using a projectile that goes 1200 m/s (e.g., SNPPC). Time of flight is 250ms. In 250ms that lateral velocity of 27 m/s will shift the point of impact by 6.94 meters. Considering even an Atlas at 12 meters wide, a shot that's perfectly-aimed center-mass would totally whiff to the side by nearly 1 meter if physics were properly modeled with projectiles inheriting your velocity vector.

So you have people whose brains perceive this relative lateral motion and instinctively try to lead the shot according to that, only to whiff badly, because in MWO there is no inheritance of momentum.

This isn't immediately obvious to people, BTW. I introduced a friend to MWO and when I observed the manner in which he was missing his shots, I quickly realized he was missing so badly because he was shooting as if there was momentum inheritance. I had to explicitly tell him MWO didn't have momentum inheritance. This being completely at odds with his hands-on experience in playing other sports, his reaction was along the lines of "WTF?".

[Nightbird]

YueFei, on 28 July 2022 - 01:07 PM, said:

Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine MWO physics had projectiles inherit your velocity vector. Take a mech going laterally 100kph, which is 27.7+ m/s. You're shooting at a stationary target that's 300 meters away using a projectile that goes 1200 m/s (e.g., SNPPC). Time of flight is 250ms. In 250ms that lateral velocity of 27 m/s will shift the point of impact by 6.94 meters. Considering even an Atlas at 12 meters wide, a shot that's perfectly-aimed center-mass would totally whiff to the side by nearly 1 meter if physics were properly modeled with projectiles inheriting your velocity vector.

So you have people whose brains perceive this relative lateral motion and instinctively try to lead the shot according to that, only to whiff badly, because in MWO there is no inheritance of momentum.

This isn't immediately obvious to people, BTW. I introduced a friend to MWO and when I observed the manner in which he was missing his shots, I quickly realized he was missing so badly because he was shooting as if there was momentum inheritance. I had to explicitly tell him MWO didn't have momentum inheritance. This being completely at odds with his hands-on experience in playing other sports, his reaction was along the lines of "WTF?".

I can understand missing one or two times, but compared to games where you have to aim off the target at 30% angle because of the high vehicle speed, it is not that bad. Just by looking at the projectile fly past the target once, your brain can compensate. Otherwise, every skill node which give 2.5% velocity and quirks that give 10-30% velocity would make people unable to aim, which doesn't happen. In FP, every mech has a different velocity even with the same weapons. We get by

Edited by Nightbird, 28 July 2022 - 01:43 PM.

[pattonesque]

Marida Connoisseur, on 28 July 2022 - 09:32 AM, said:

This may just be me, but an upper tier 5/lower tier 4, I find snubs extremely frustrating to use. Trying to use them against a light just gets me solo'd while missing literally nearly every single shot against them, even as another light, and against more agile mediums isn't much better. Outside of heavies and assaults in general, its also nearly impossible to hit anything moving within 100-150m or so (although that might have to do with them being mounted on the right arm with the RVN-3L), and against heavies and assaults up to 20 damage every 4 seconds hardly does jack. Even thinking about brawling a heavy or assault within 310m so you can even get that full 20 damage is a massive mistake.

sight-unseen -- what's your sensitivity set to? If it's not already .1, change it to .1 and see if that helps once you get used to it.

[Thrudvangar]

Add MORE and MORE and LOTS OF MORE Ghostheat while beeing fired while using jumpjets... end of story

[Curccu]

Alsvartar, on 02 August 2022 - 04:51 AM, said:

Add MORE and MORE and LOTS OF MORE Ghostheat while beeing fired while using jumpjets... end of story

LOL

I don't like how someone plays and I'm unable to play like that... lets make it basically impossible.

[Meep Meep]

Well ghost heat would certainly stop the triple snub right left punches that are all the rage now. Unlike certain players I don't see the issue with the lights and mediums that can use two of them and actually be viable and useful to their team. I don't even see many lights or mediums using them to be honest. It's mainly being abused on assaults and heavies.

[Nightbird]

Meep Meep, on 02 August 2022 - 11:06 PM, said:

Well ghost heat would certainly stop the triple snub right left punches that are all the rage now. Unlike certain players I don't see the issue with the lights and mediums that can use two of them and actually be viable and useful to their team. I don't even see many lights or mediums using them to be honest. It's mainly being abused on assaults and heavies.

Exactly, for tonnage starved lights and mediums, do you spend 6 tons on 3 MPLs with 18 damage and 5 DPS or 10+5 splash and 2.5 DPS? It's only the larger mechs that need a nerf to 2 before GH.

[LordNothing]

having finally had a chance to use the snubs and their newfound glory, i have to say that maybe its a good thing. the problem snubs have always had is that you cant effectively brawl with them. now that you can they are the best thing since sliced bread for brawlers and a scourge to anyone who falls within brawl range. but il concede that perhaps they are a bit too powerful.

my preferred solutions are (pick 2 or 3):

optimal range down to 220 and max range down to 240, velocity down 1000. make it brawl-exclusive.

bring heat up to 8-9. 7 is too cold for how much damage it can dump.

move snub and hgauss to the ac20 gh group. i think this is a better place for them than the ppc/gauss group. mixing weapons in these groups would be sub-optimal.

bring gh penalties more inline to the cerppc since it has the same damage profile, sans range. since the heat is lower more multiplier?

Edited by LordNothing, 03 August 2022 - 03:18 PM.

[Vonbach]

Snubs are fine.