182 replies to this topic

[Tarteso]

VeeOt Dragon, on 01 September 2022 - 06:18 PM, said:

i still think the simple reduction of RaDerp to a max of 85% (without mech quirks) would be the best and simplest option with the current state of the game. for one its a simple spreadsheet change that can be rolled back easily if it doesn't work as intended. as much as i do love LRM there is only so much that can be done with current state of things. hell even reducing the IDF lock time for Artemis missiles would be a boon making the added tonnage worth taking (as it stands it just not worth it).

85%? lol

Raderp is a SKILL (zero tons and costless) vastly outperforming (to dont say it piss on) any other missile-enhancing thing, even equipment (ton costly). IMO, skills should only improve "real game things" marginally, but come on, a thing completely negating productive missile locks, even at far less than 100%? And it cannot be countered except briefly, by spotters. No matter if mechs can get 100% or "just" 85% if maxed, results are gonna be the same with the current missile lock mechanic (time and the stupid reduction of the lockon area years ago and other "balance" moves), ecm, and map designs and re-designs (all heavily played areas on mostly all maps are mazes or city-like or have lots of cover).

And for the people talking about lurmaggedons: LOL. Missiles in MWO are a joke. Use your tons and equip ECM and AMS. Did you ever play MW4Mercs? Missiles were a thing then.

Edited by Tarteso, 14 September 2022 - 11:13 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

oh don't get me wrong Tarteso i completely agree with you. before the mega nerf i loved LRM (i still do but they are almost impossible to use well now days). oh i liked the fire arc change and thought that was great but just everything else from that pass was garbage not only nerfing LRM but all the equipment that assists locking missile use. if i had it my way i would reduce RaDerp even more than that but 86% just sounded like a good compromise that would minimize the very vocal minority that seem to hate LRM specifically (you never hear these folks ***** about Streak SRMs or all that much about ATM its only LRM that gets the hate) while still giving a good semi buff and as was said making those few mechs with RaDerp quirks feel special. Quirks should make a chassis feel unique or special in some way. (i would love to see some more of those oddball quirks to be honest. the ones that make things seem special but thats a conversation for another time)

[Nightbird]

1. Target lock decay is free skill nodes as well, no equipment grants it

2. Radar deprivation has always been 100%, at least for the 8 years I've played this game. What nerf are you talking about?

Edited by Nightbird, 15 September 2022 - 07:33 AM.

[Abisha]

they can make LRM better by adjusting travel time after all they are missiles and they go fast.

so not change the ECM, radar deprivation but change LRM speed.

i do need to say LRMgaddon back in the old day's made MWO a lot better type of game your always was in cover and had some sort of trade blows type of gameplay (like WW1 style)

now day's most mechs are in open fields packed together

old day's people played strategically not a call of mechs

so yea give back the old LRM and bring back the good old day's

Edited by Abisha, 15 September 2022 - 09:08 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Abisha, on 15 September 2022 - 09:00 AM, said:

they can make LRM better by adjusting travel time after all they are missiles and they go fast.

so not change the ECM, radar deprivation but change LRM speed.

A combination would work best. Reducing max Radar Derp (before quirks) to 75% would allow a fully skilled Target Retention mech about 1.5 seconds of lock time before losing target. this is not enough to get an LRM volley in from the horizon, but is from closer in IF you up the LRM speed from the sub-300m/s value it has currently.

[Main Man]

This always comes back to skill vs. no-skill. The ironic thing is that it takes less skill to spam ER Large lasers than keep a missile lock. The facetime of an insta-hit laser is 1-1.5 seconds. To keep an effective lock takes about 2 to gain the lock plus another 2-3 to maintain the lock and it can be negated by radar derp, ECM, and terrain. Everyone who shits on LRMs but uses lasers is a hypocrite

[sosegado]

Can't the Predator Blood Asp send 130 lrms downrange?

Is there any other mech/weapon system that can send 130 of anything downrange (other than srms from the same mech) in the same amount of time?

Near or far?

It's a real question, not a smart a$$ question.

Edited by Stab Wound, 15 September 2022 - 10:12 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Main Man, on 15 September 2022 - 09:18 AM, said:

This always comes back to skill vs. no-skill. The ironic thing is that it takes less skill to spam ER Large lasers than keep a missile lock. The facetime of an insta-hit laser is 1-1.5 seconds. To keep an effective lock takes about 2 to gain the lock plus another 2-3 to maintain the lock and it can be negated by radar derp, ECM, and terrain. Everyone who shits on LRMs but uses lasers is a hypocrite

You have to aim lasers tho. You have to trade facetime for lasers.
You have to follow your target. Lasers are not homing missiles.

This thread has gotten stupid.
Learn to aim your own missiles, stop depending on a targeting computer to play the game for you

[ScrapIron Prime]

Stab Wound, on 15 September 2022 - 09:53 AM, said:

Can't the Predator Blood Asp send 130 lrms downrange?

Is there any other mech/weapon system that can send 130 of anything downrange (other than srms from the same mech) in the same amount of time?

Near or far?

It's a real question, not a smart a$$ question.

Yeah, I think the Blood Asp is the king of lurms at 130 missiles in one volley. Fairly effective if you're in a team with spotters and launching from 400-600m, near useless if you're solo dropping or firing at max range.

[Runecarver]

Stab Wound, on 15 September 2022 - 09:53 AM, said:

Can't the Predator Blood Asp send 130 lrms downrange?

Is there any other mech/weapon system that can send 130 of anything downrange (other than srms from the same mech) in the same amount of time?

Near or far?

It's a real question, not a smart a$$ question.

To answer your question, yes there are.
Annihilator Mean Baby with 4 MRM30s (120 damage, can afford to toss on small lasers to get to 135 damage).
Fafnir Wrath with 3 MRM40s and additional backup weaponry if desired.
Marauder II -4SP variant with 4 MRM30s (120 damage, can similarly afford to toss on small lasers to get over 130 damage), or 8 SRM6s and 4 MPLs (gets to 127.2 damage, can swap MPLs for 2 snub PPCs and thanks to their splash damage be dealing a total of 133.2 damage).
Any inner sphere assault mech with the capability to mount 4 Rotary AC2's (deals 131 damage over 5 seconds of fire).
Any inner sphere assault mech with the capability to mount 3 Rotary AC5's (deals 163 damage over 5 seconds of fire).
Any clan assault mech that can put on 4x ATM12's and a few backup lasers or an ERPPC reaches over 130 damage.

And 4x heavy large laser builds on clan mechs can get to between 90-100 damage pin point at the the 400-500 meter range.

There's plenty of damage flying around.

Edited by Runecarver, 16 September 2022 - 05:41 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Runecarver, on 16 September 2022 - 05:35 AM, said:

And 4x heavy large laser builds on clan mechs can get to between 90-100 damage pin point at the the 400-500 meter range.

Heh, heavy larges are many things, but “pinpoint” isn’t one of them. They’re about as hit-scanny as you can get.

[foamyesque]

The critical thing is that there's a mismatch between RD and TR in that RD removes a percentage but TR adds flat values. They should work on the same flat scale, if they're going to be kept at all.

Honestly personally I'd just get rid of both of them. If you wanna drop off scopes, use ECM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

that would work as well, switching TR to a percentage so that it just sort of negates the RD nodes would work

as for there always being RD at 100%, that is true but before the skill tree revamp (an improvement i agree) it took quite a few more nodes to get that full RD, you had to take most of the sensor tree to do it. now you can get the same thing for far fewer nodes letting every mech potentially take full derp without sacrificing much from other nodes.

[Tlords]

LRMs, ATMs, and Streaks needs some love.

I'm sure I'm missing some of the ways to counter them...

- ECM on your mech
- Staying close to another mech with ECM
- ECM inside of ECM making it impossible to get a lock - even with tag.
- Radar Derp
- Combined AMS
- Minimum ranges on LRMs and ATMs.
- Having a roof over your head with LRMs.

[JediPanther]

Tlords, on 24 September 2022 - 09:00 PM, said:

LRMs, ATMs, and Streaks needs some love.

I'm sure I'm missing some of the ways to counter them...

- ECM on your mech
- Staying close to another mech with ECM
- ECM inside of ECM making it impossible to get a lock - even with tag.
- Radar Derp
- Combined AMS
- Minimum ranges on LRMs and ATMs.
- Having a roof over your head with LRMs.

That's a good short list. I once made a thread that listed *every* possible way to counter or avoid lrms specifically. It got to over fifty listed ways. The best way is to just use ecm/ams and MOVE to a hard cover since the game doesn't have any terrain destruction or building destruction. As long as the game thinks there is some thing between you and the lrms they are most likely to miss or have the lot of them miss. You could even be a D and use a team mate in a pinch not that you should as they will suffer the damage.

[Drenath]

Some ideas:

Indirect fire requires a NARC or TAG.
BAP works more like a mini-UAV (sees enemies behind you)
More AMS hardpoints in general. Maybe convert to ballistic/energy.
Streaks work without missile lock. Won't detonate on friendlies.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Drenath, on 26 September 2022 - 11:34 PM, said:

Some ideas:

Indirect fire requires a NARC or TAG.
BAP works more like a mini-UAV (sees enemies behind you)
More AMS hardpoints in general. Maybe convert to ballistic/energy.
Streaks work without missile lock. Won't detonate on friendlies.

in order

-absolutely not (the way it works now is fine, pressing R locks a target and your mech's inbuilt basic computer sends that data to your entire team.) also the last thing LRM needs is more nerfs they are already the most heavily countered weapon system in the game

-would be interesting and worth taking it on more mech builds

-no i think its fine the way it is, keep in mind that the majority of mechs in the game are based on their Lore variants (ok PGI has mad more than few themselves as well as moving rear mounted weapons to forward mounts.) they should stick to this. if every mech could carry 3-4 AMS (and people actually use those slots) then all missile weapons would be completely negated, remember AMS works on ALL missile weapons from SRM to LRM and everything in between (even rockets i think). the vast majority of mechs in the game has at least 1 AMS people just refuse to use them for the most part (i don't want to hear you complain about LRM if your mech has an AMS slot and you don't use it, thats the risk you take when you use that tonnage for something else)

-not sure on this one honestly as i have never used them much myself, hell i rarely us SRM let alone streaks. (i'm more of a mid range fighter most of the time)

[Curccu]

Drenath, on 26 September 2022 - 11:34 PM, said:

Some ideas:

Indirect fire requires a NARC or TAG.

Pretty bad for worst weapon in the game atm.

Drenath, on 26 September 2022 - 11:34 PM, said:

BAP works more like a mini-UAV (sees enemies behind you)

Maybe, but this feature would hurt mostly worst class in the game... lights.

Drenath, on 26 September 2022 - 11:34 PM, said:

More AMS hardpoints in general. Maybe convert to ballistic/energy.

Same as 1st.

Drenath, on 26 September 2022 - 11:34 PM, said:

Streaks work without missile lock. Won't detonate on friendlies.

Dumpfire should be possible, that would make streaks so much better.
Friendly detonation thingy isn't necessary IMO, no other missile system has it either and that would require coding...

[martian]

Drenath, on 26 September 2022 - 11:34 PM, said:

Some ideas:

Indirect fire requires a NARC or TAG.
BAP works more like a mini-UAV (sees enemies behind you)
More AMS hardpoints in general. Maybe convert to ballistic/energy.
Streaks work without missile lock. Won't detonate on friendlies.

The more AMS in the game, the greater problem for missiles of both the guided and the unguided kind.

[Drenath]

VeeOt Dragon, on 27 September 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

the last thing LRM needs is more nerfs

Do you think radar deprivation nerfs benefit streak/atm use more than lrm?

VeeOt Dragon, on 27 September 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

(and people actually use those slots)

run the risk of not going up against missiles...

Curccu, on 27 September 2022 - 11:53 PM, said:

this feature would hurt mostly worst class in the game... lights.

While not all lights are knifie-wielding Piranhas, I'd certainly be open to other buffs for lights, but it's nonsense that NO rear-facing sensors are available in a game where people largely neglect back armor.

martian, on 28 September 2022 - 12:19 AM, said:

The more AMS in the game, the greater problem for missiles of both the guided and the unguided kind.

I think it's a problem that NARC's are basically hard-countered by a single AMS. I don't think it's a problem that an anti-missile system works precisely as described.