210 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

MrMadguy, on 04 October 2022 - 03:02 AM, said:

Tiers are devalued. All unskilled players are pushed down further and further, because Tier 1/2 guys are allowed to play in lower Tiers. I'm 50% player. I should be in mid Tier 3. But I'm in Tier 4 now.

Actually no, A S H gave some hints about population split between tiers...

"
So we aren't allowed to post them up but I can say basic things that others have commented on already.

T1+T2 has less in it than Tier 3 or Tier 4.
T3 has 3.5x as many as T1+2
T4 has 2x as many as T1+2
"
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6441491

Edited by Curccu, 04 October 2022 - 03:28 AM.

[dubstep albatross]

MrMadguy said:

Tiers are devalued. All unskilled players are pushed down further and further, because Tier 1/2 guys are allowed to play in lower Tiers. I'm 50% player. I should be in mid Tier 3. But I'm in Tier 4 now.

Curccu, on 04 October 2022 - 03:25 AM, said:

Actually no, A S H gave some hints about population split between tiers...

My interpretation is that MrMadguy meant they are at the fiftieth percentile in (overall) ranking on Jarl's list. I also believe their stance is that because they are ranked at 50%, they should be half-way through Tier 3.

https://leaderboard....arch?u=MrMadguy

Distribution of players across tiers is one issue, another would be the percentile spread in each tier, and yet another would be the disconnect between how ranking is calculated and how tier is determined. This stance, I think, only serves to increase frustration and for apparently little gain.

I am sympathetic to MrMadguy's perspective and what they point out is a real issue for some players. I faced the same frustrations when breaking into Tier 3. Ultimately I needed to 1) change my own perspective and 2) change my builds/playstyle. Something something there is no spoon.

My favorite mech is a laser vomit Jester (look, feel, playstyle), but it is not a competitive chassis in Tier 3+ games. Just does not have the DPS or alpha necessary. It has also suffered from surrounding power creep and, sadly, obsolescence. If I choose to goal on mechanical match performance and match summary metrics, then I have to make an adjustment in the things that contribute to that. If I were to, instead, choose to goal on personal preference and aesthetics, the Jester would be fine. I chose the former, some choose the latter, and both choices are okay.

[MrMadguy]

dubstep albatross, on 04 October 2022 - 06:23 AM, said:

My interpretation is that MrMadguy meant they are at the fiftieth percentile in (overall) ranking on Jarl's list. I also believe their stance is that because they are ranked at 50%, they should be half-way through Tier 3.

https://leaderboard....arch?u=MrMadguy

Distribution of players across tiers is one issue, another would be the percentile spread in each tier, and yet another would be the disconnect between how ranking is calculated and how tier is determined. This stance, I think, only serves to increase frustration and for apparently little gain.

I am sympathetic to MrMadguy's perspective and what they point out is a real issue for some players. I faced the same frustrations when breaking into Tier 3. Ultimately I needed to 1) change my own perspective and 2) change my builds/playstyle. Something something there is no spoon.

My favorite mech is a laser vomit Jester (look, feel, playstyle), but it is not a competitive chassis in Tier 3+ games. Just does not have the DPS or alpha necessary. It has also suffered from surrounding power creep and, sadly, obsolescence. If I choose to goal on mechanical match performance and match summary metrics, then I have to make an adjustment in the things that contribute to that. If I were to, instead, choose to goal on personal preference and aesthetics, the Jester would be fine. I chose the former, some choose the latter, and both choices are okay.

While I understand, that Jarl's isn't 100% accurate, because both W/L and AvgMS themselves are relative things. I.e. Tier 1 player can have exactly the same W/L and AvgMS, when playing properly balanced matches vs Tier 1s only. They have higher W/L and AvgMS exactly because they play against lower Tier players. But at least this thing shows, that I'm not bad player. I just don't think, that such stomps should happen in Tier 4. Especially, if Tier 3 is 3.5x of Tier 1+2 and Tier 4 is 2x. There should be big gap between me and Tier 1+2. Tier 1+2 players should play against closer players, such as top of Tier 3. Not against Tier 4. This suggests, that Tier devaluation happens. When Tier 1+2 players are allowed to play against Tier 3 - Tier 3 players are pushed down further and further. To Tier 4 for example. So, release valves have to be open even wider and allow Tier 1+2 to play against Tier 4. This will be happening till moment, when there will be just 2 Tiers - Tier 5 and Tier 1. But they'll play together, so it will mean no Tiers at all. We will return back to PSR exp bar.

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 October 2022 - 09:09 PM.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 04 October 2022 - 09:05 PM, said:

While I understand, that Jarl's isn't 100% accurate, because both W/L and AvgMS themselves are relative things. I.e. Tier 1 player can have exactly the same W/L and AvgMS, when playing properly balanced matches vs Tier 1s only. They have higher W/L and AvgMS exactly because they play against lower Tier players. But at least this thing shows, that I'm not bad player. I just don't think, that such stomps should happen in Tier 4. Especially, if Tier 3 is 3.5x of Tier 1+2 and Tier 4 is 2x. There should be big gap between me and Tier 1+2. Tier 1+2 players should play against closer players, such as top of Tier 3. Not against Tier 4. This suggests, that Tier devaluation happens. When Tier 1+2 players are allowed to play against Tier 3 - Tier 3 players are pushed down further and further. To Tier 4 for example. So, release valves have to be open even wider and allow Tier 1+2 to play against Tier 4. This will be happening till moment, when there will be just 2 Tiers - Tier 5 and Tier 1. But they'll play together, so it will mean no Tiers at all. We will return back to PSR exp bar.

Stomps happen at all tiers. Stomps are a result of the basic design of the game. Losses on one side are also gains on the other, and since there are no respawns in QP, the game is essentially designed to make those gains and losses snowball.

Suggesting they are a result of tier imbalance is not truthful, and suggesting the higher tiers have better match stats because they face lower tiers consistently is also not truthful.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Plus stomps happen as a result of team losses. If your flank loses 3 mechs, suddenly that flank is greatly outnumbered and gets rolled quickly. Then you're looking at a 1-6 game and it goes downhill fast into a 2-12 loss. Or even a 0-12 loss. That's not necessarily a result of tier imbalance, but of exploiting casualties... which is how the game is supposed to be played.

[Curccu]

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 October 2022 - 07:13 AM, said:

Plus stomps happen as a result of team losses. If your flank loses 3 mechs, suddenly that flank is greatly outnumbered and gets rolled quickly. Then you're looking at a 1-6 game and it goes downhill fast into a 2-12 loss. Or even a 0-12 loss. That's not necessarily a result of tier imbalance, but of exploiting casualties... which is how the game is supposed to be played.

Or that "OP" group starts freaking flank with NTGs in crimson strait and is late 3-4 minutes from battle while rest of the team is pretty much dead...

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 05 October 2022 - 07:38 AM, said:

Or that "OP" group starts freaking flank with NTGs in crimson strait and is late 3-4 minutes from battle while rest of the team is pretty much dead...

Doesn't matter what forum badge you wear; nothing stops people from doing stupid.

[ScrapIron Prime]

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 07:57 AM, said:

Doesn't matter what forum badge you wear; nothing stops people from doing stupid.

Word.

For every "why didn't the team keep up with us" there's a corresponding "why did you guys run off on your own".

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 03 October 2022 - 09:40 PM, said:

Rewards are personal, not team-based. If Tier 1 guy plays against Tier 1 guy or Tier 5 guy plays against Tier 5 guy - they get some average rewards. But if Tier 1 guy plays against Tier 5 guy - he gets rewards above average, while Tier 5 guy - below it. This should be compensated.

But the Quick Play games are not 1vs1, but 12vs12. Often they are very chaotic.

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 October 2022 - 08:17 AM, said:

Word.

For every "why didn't the team keep up with us" there's a corresponding "why did you guys run off on your own".

I think that the first thing to do is that such group should use the voice chat and the text chat to tell the rest of the team what their group is planning to do (and announce this information in the first seconds of the game).

One extreme is a non-communicating group that sets off to "do their own thing" without telling the rest of their team. Then you do not know if that group is planning to camp and snipe, push forward and brawl, or do something completely else.

[Chloe Cole Kerensky]

https://imgur.com/a/MQfU9A

I doubt this would be possible in T1

Edited by The Jab, 05 October 2022 - 04:14 PM.

[Pixel Hunter]

dubstep albatross, on 04 October 2022 - 06:23 AM, said:

My favorite mech is a laser vomit Jester (look, feel, playstyle), but it is not a competitive chassis in Tier 3+ games. Just does not have the DPS or alpha necessary. It has also suffered from surrounding power creep and, sadly, obsolescence. If I choose to goal on mechanical match performance and match summary metrics, then I have to make an adjustment in the things that contribute to that. If I were to, instead, choose to goal on personal preference and aesthetics, the Jester would be fine. I chose the former, some choose the latter, and both choices are okay.

and that's one of my biggest gripes at T3, the game more or less forces you to stop playing any mechs that aren't deemed "good". there are so many mechs you just don't see because everybody and their sister are playing the meta loadouts.

Edited by Pixel Hunter, 05 October 2022 - 05:35 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Pixel Hunter, on 05 October 2022 - 05:34 PM, said:

and that's one of my biggest gripes at T3, the game more or less forces you to stop playing any mechs that aren't deemed "good". there are so many mechs you just don't see because everybody and their sister are playing the meta loadouts.

You can play them if you mind your battlefield awareness. I used a Jester like that and my favorite LRM Highlander 733P well into T2 and prospered with them. It gets tougher, no doubt, but its still quite doable.

[martian]

The Jab, on 05 October 2022 - 04:03 PM, said:

https://imgur.com/a/MQfU9A

I doubt this would be possible in T1

Pretty nice game! Congratulations!

Pixel Hunter, on 05 October 2022 - 05:34 PM, said:

and that's one of my biggest gripes at T3, the game more or less forces you to stop playing any mechs that aren't deemed "good". there are so many mechs you just don't see because everybody and their sister are playing the meta loadouts.

If you are a casual player, then just play any 'Mech, that you wish to play, and let PSR do its job.

[Curccu]

Pixel Hunter, on 05 October 2022 - 05:34 PM, said:

and that's one of my biggest gripes at T3, the game more or less forces you to stop playing any mechs that aren't deemed "good". there are so many mechs you just don't see because everybody and their sister are playing the meta loadouts.

It only forces you to play meta (viable) mechs (I don't think it really even does, just not to play stupidly bad bracket builds) if you want to get up in tiers and become better performing player
If you just want to play to entertain yourself without any goals to evolve as player... Play whatever you want and don't give a **** about your tier number.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 October 2022 - 06:01 PM, said:

You can play them if you mind your battlefield awareness. I used a Jester like that and my favorite LRM Highlander 733P well into T2 and prospered with them. It gets tougher, no doubt, but its still quite doable.

"Jester" is one of my favorite 'Mechs.

[Pixel Hunter]

Curccu, on 05 October 2022 - 10:29 PM, said:

It only forces you to play meta (viable) mechs (I don't think it really even does, just not to play stupidly bad bracket builds) if you want to get up in tiers and become better performing player
If you just want to play to entertain yourself without any goals to evolve as player... Play whatever you want and don't give a **** about your tier number.

well that's a double edged sword, I advanced to T3 and want to play what I like, but I also don't want to "throw" games and not be useful to my team. I think a lot of players like me who don't even have (or only have a few) of the meta mechs in their bays agree with that. Bottom line, some mechanics and mechs need to be looked at and rebalanced still. headway is being made but there is a long way to go.

[foamyesque]

The entire discussion focusing on whether or not a player can climb in PSR is kind of a red herring. The fundamental issue is about *play experience*, and there's a very noticeable step change between being in tier 4 and getting into tier 3, which is due entirely to the fact that in tier 3 you can and will be matched with the best players in the game, which is a hugely greater disparity than exists in tier 4.

It's kind of neat for someone to see a name they recognize from a stream or wherever on the enemy team... the first time. It's less neat when it happens a bunch of times in a row, or when a JGx four-man shows up on either side. The games simply aren't fun when that much of a performance disparity exists, certainly not for the people on the losing side and I can't imagine it's that enjoyable for those on the winning side either.

Honestly, I think it might well be what contributes to the hesitation (and certainly to the situational blindness) you often see in those streamer's videos in the other players in the match: My theory is that a lot of those are lower-tier folks who know they are outclassed and are trying to play defensively as a result.

Edited by foamyesque, 06 October 2022 - 08:36 PM.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 09:11 PM, said:

If you are a casual player, then just play any 'Mech, that you wish to play, and let PSR do its job.

That's, what I actually ask for. I've been asking for it since implementation of PSR exp bar. Problem is - PSR doesn't do it's job. I agree to have non-stop lose/stomp/bad match streak in one case only - if this will pay off some day and since then I will be 100% protected from such unfair things. If even dropping to Tier 4 doesn't solve this problem, then this game is dead.

[crazytimes]

MrMadguy, on 06 October 2022 - 10:27 PM, said:

That's, what I actually ask for. I've been asking for it since implementation of PSR exp bar. Problem is - PSR doesn't do it's job. I agree to have non-stop lose/stomp/bad match streak in one case only - if this will pay off some day and since then I will be 100% protected from such unfair things. If even dropping to Tier 4 doesn't solve this problem, then this game is dead.

Have you considered reaching out and asking for help at getting better? There's lots of discords where people would happily spend time helping you develop some better general gameplay that might help. If you're in 4 and still dropping, the problem just might be something that you yourself could change.

[Flea King Fleappuccino]

More important than tiers is team balancing. Besides tonnage, I don't think anything is currently being done to balance players between teams. Why aren't we talking more about balancing teams? Matchmaker finds 24 people for a match. Great. Now make a simple algorithm to at least try to balance out the teams, with avg match score, avg dmg + avg kills, for the each pilot's current weight class.

If done right, we could eliminate tiers altogether, which would be amazing considering an already low population being split into 3 tiers (1-3, 2-4, 3-5). It seems like the only reason we need tiers is because we haven't figured out a better way to balance teams.

Run this as many times as you'd like and ask yourself if you'd like to be playing in the unbalanced match or the balanced one, and then wonder why something this simple isn't implemented or even talked about being implemented: http://107.170.255.7...eam_balance.php

Edited by King Samu, 07 October 2022 - 05:39 AM.