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Stone Rhino Pre-Order Is Here!


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#121 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 11:23 AM

View PostC337Skymaster, on 11 May 2023 - 03:04 AM, said:

So both games are trying to approximate the same thing from different perspectives. Weapons aiming is computer assisted for ALL weapons, and not excellent at tracking a moving target (stationary targets are really easy to hit, even for lousy pilots, and we DO tend to be pretty stationary in MWO). So the ability to carve up targets like a thanksgiving turkey means the precision is dialed up a bit too much, and needs to be backed off slightly.


On one hand, you are right because the variable hit location model we are using was always designed with random hit locations in mind and, if i recall correctly, when targeting computers / pulse lasers were added they had to insert a rule to say 'no aimed shots with pulse lasers' because its .. far too strong.

On the other hand, this is a first person real time game and if you actually simulate totally random hit locations, you pretty much remove player 'skill' (distinct from tactics/strategy) as a factor. Compared to hitting targets in literally any 'normal' FPS, just hitting mechs aint hard, they are big and slow. And, if it was like that, i wouldnt be playing the game at all.

I could maybe get behind some kind of 'compromise' system with variable target cones or something that were entirely player controlled (i.e. by heat/movement speed/etc and NOT by RNG) as long as it was still possible to concentrate your fire if you took the requisite steps/considerations.

#122 C337Skymaster

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 01:45 PM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 11 May 2023 - 11:23 AM, said:


On one hand, you are right because the variable hit location model we are using was always designed with random hit locations in mind and, if i recall correctly, when targeting computers / pulse lasers were added they had to insert a rule to say 'no aimed shots with pulse lasers' because its .. far too strong.

On the other hand, this is a first person real time game and if you actually simulate totally random hit locations, you pretty much remove player 'skill' (distinct from tactics/strategy) as a factor. Compared to hitting targets in literally any 'normal' FPS, just hitting mechs aint hard, they are big and slow. And, if it was like that, i wouldnt be playing the game at all.

I could maybe get behind some kind of 'compromise' system with variable target cones or something that were entirely player controlled (i.e. by heat/movement speed/etc and NOT by RNG) as long as it was still possible to concentrate your fire if you took the requisite steps/considerations.


I mean, to me that sounds entirely like the skill system, where higher skill pilots are more likely to hit their targets, and can try to aim their shots to hit almost all the same location. Further, we are missing most of the heat mechanics that are supposed to balance weapons fire: you're supposed to check for override every time you pass a heat threshhold, but you've got a chance of beating it that gets harder as the heat goes up. Easy: delay between warning and shutdown. As the heat rises, the delay becomes shorter, until you hit what on TT is "30 excess heat" and you shut down without a chance to override. Currently, we just go straight to the top without any of the intermediate steps in between. We also are completely missing the hit to movement (which will indirectly affect aiming, so I don't think we need to manually add any heat related effects to that), although the ability to use jump jets to GTFO would need to be added if we're going to properly implement heat related mobility reduction.

But think about it: high-alpha laser vomit that is built around rising to 95% heat in one shot steps out, one-shots an Atlas' side torso from fresh, and steps back to cover. Instead, that 'mech is supposed to be nearly immobilized by that much heat, but we don't have that as a consideration. It's 100% pilot-controlled: no RNG, because you just don't let your heat get that high.

And as I mentioned earlier: it always sounds like waiting on a firing solution. Or, in non-RNG game terms: convergence delay. You've gotta wait for the weapons to figure out the range to target and make the correct convergence adjustments. When we're all standing perfectly still, that fits: stationary shots are super easy. When we're all moving around, range is all over the map, and so is convergence as a result.

Ultimately, anything titled "MechWarrior" is supposed to be simulation. That got shouted down, somewhere along the way, and that was a critical mistake.

#123 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 02:33 PM

View PostC337Skymaster, on 11 May 2023 - 01:45 PM, said:

Further, we are missing most of the heat mechanics that are supposed to balance weapons fire: you're supposed to check for override every time you pass a heat threshhold, but you've got a chance of beating it that gets harder as the heat goes up. Easy: delay between warning and shutdown. As the heat rises, the delay becomes shorter, until you hit what on TT is "30 excess heat" and you shut down without a chance to override. Currently, we just go straight to the top without any of the intermediate steps in between. We also are completely missing the hit to movement (which will indirectly affect aiming, so I don't think we need to manually add any heat related effects to that), although the ability to use jump jets to GTFO would need to be added if we're going to properly implement heat related mobility reduction.

But think about it: high-alpha laser vomit that is built around rising to 95% heat in one shot steps out, one-shots an Atlas' side torso from fresh, and steps back to cover. Instead, that 'mech is supposed to be nearly immobilized by that much heat, but we don't have that as a consideration. It's 100% pilot-controlled: no RNG, because you just don't let your heat get that high.


I suppose technically we are missing the heat mechanics, but i think you're missing the fact that many of the most popular builds when it comes to laser vomiting would not suffer any heat penalties ever if directly transferred to TT.

For example: tbr-bh

5 C-ERML (25) and 2 C-LPL (20) is a total of 45 heat generated, meaning you need 22.5 DHS to completely sink it. Since the build runs with 25 DHS, it will literally never suffer a single heat penalty as heat effects are applied after all weapons fire and all heatsinking is done. In MWO, however, it is possible to shut yourself down / blow yourself up from weapons fire heat generation with the same build, despite having skill trees and quirks to reduce weapon heat and increase cooling.

In terms of heat limitations on what builds can be run, TT is substantially more forgiving that current MWO is and a lot of the most popular energy vomit mechs would be completely heat neutral. (whether they would be effective in TT is a different topic, though i think some of them would be - a 5 LPL Blood Asp build with 26 DHS would be frighteningly so)

Weapon convergence is a different topic.

#124 C337Skymaster

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 03:17 PM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 11 May 2023 - 02:33 PM, said:


I suppose technically we are missing the heat mechanics, but i think you're missing the fact that many of the most popular builds when it comes to laser vomiting would not suffer any heat penalties ever if directly transferred to TT.

For example: tbr-bh

5 C-ERML (25) and 2 C-LPL (20) is a total of 45 heat generated, meaning you need 22.5 DHS to completely sink it. Since the build runs with 25 DHS, it will literally never suffer a single heat penalty as heat effects are applied after all weapons fire and all heatsinking is done. In MWO, however, it is possible to shut yourself down / blow yourself up from weapons fire heat generation with the same build, despite having skill trees and quirks to reduce weapon heat and increase cooling.

In terms of heat limitations on what builds can be run, TT is substantially more forgiving that current MWO is and a lot of the most popular energy vomit mechs would be completely heat neutral. (whether they would be effective in TT is a different topic, though i think some of them would be - a 5 LPL Blood Asp build with 26 DHS would be frighteningly so)

Weapon convergence is a different topic.


That's because weapons fire anywhere from 2.5 to 14 times faster than they're supposed to, while heat sinks work at 1.1 times their intended speed. Honestly, slowing THAT way down would also dramatically improve TTK and make crossing open terrain much less penalizing.

#125 Razgriz_

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 04:35 PM

View PostLockheed_, on 10 May 2023 - 01:48 PM, said:

-1 absolutely not! the mech looks iconic as it is. keep it as close to the original TRO 3055 look as possible.


110% It might not be practical but Im here for dope mechs and explosions, not practicality.

#126 -Ramrod-

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 06:59 PM

This mech seems to be the most versatile assault I've seen. There are so many builds you could do on every variant. I mean yea it's most likely going to be a walking turret but quad LB-20x's? Oof! This is basically the Clan's Annihilator. I don't think it would need any weapons quirks. Just jumpjet quirks and some armor/structure so it's not a glass cannon like many Clan mechs are.

#127 Lionheart2012

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 09:07 PM

3 C-DHS in the SR-2's LA is wrong. Can fit only 2 with Shoulder, upper arm actuator, HLL, HML, HSL. Koloss default loadout is 99 tons. Any changes anticipated?

#128 LordNothing

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 10:00 PM

View PostTAMTAMBABY, on 08 May 2023 - 10:50 AM, said:

I will buy every package they put on Steam.


same, for the duration of my bitcoin trailings.

#129 C337Skymaster

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 03:39 AM

View Post-Ramrod-, on 11 May 2023 - 06:59 PM, said:

This mech seems to be the most versatile assault I've seen. There are so many builds you could do on every variant. I mean yea it's most likely going to be a walking turret but quad LB-20x's? Oof! This is basically the Clan's Annihilator. I don't think it would need any weapons quirks. Just jumpjet quirks and some armor/structure so it's not a glass cannon like many Clan mechs are.


Posted Image

It's a shame we don't have knockdown mechanics like we did in MW4. Running an Annihilator with this build in Solaris matches would typically send a Dire Wolf sliding sideways across the ground. (Had to, too. That DWF was running 2x UAC/20, 2x SSRM6, 2x LRM20)

Edited by C337Skymaster, 12 May 2023 - 03:50 AM.


#130 PocketYoda

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 04:09 AM

$100 AUD for the ultimate... Hmm ok i will do it for great Justice.

Can't wait to see those HSL +9 quirks on the 6 variant though. I want to be able to fire my 14 pulse lasers please.

Edited by PocketYoda, 12 May 2023 - 04:10 AM.


#131 C337Skymaster

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 04:45 AM

View PostPocketYoda, on 12 May 2023 - 04:09 AM, said:

$100 AUD for the ultimate... Hmm ok i will do it for great Justice.

Can't wait to see those HSL +9 quirks on the 6 variant though. I want to be able to fire my 14 pulse lasers please.


I think HSL+1 will be more than sufficient. That allows you to fire an entire torso at a time, and just left/right your shots.

#132 -Ramrod-

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 08:37 AM

View PostC337Skymaster, on 12 May 2023 - 03:39 AM, said:


Posted Image

It's a shame we don't have knockdown mechanics like we did in MW4. Running an Annihilator with this build in Solaris matches would typically send a Dire Wolf sliding sideways across the ground. (Had to, too. That DWF was running 2x UAC/20, 2x SSRM6, 2x LRM20)


I was thinking something like this too.

Posted Image

#133 C337Skymaster

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 10:29 AM

View Post-Ramrod-, on 12 May 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:


I was thinking something like this too.

Posted Image


I'm thinking that might be light on Gauss ammo compared to the LBX ammo. If you think about it: you're gonna use the gauss by itself, at range, and you're not gonna stop firing the gauss when someone comes within LBX range.

Posted Image

Edited by C337Skymaster, 12 May 2023 - 10:39 AM.


#134 Uncle Totty

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 02:01 PM

Store page Pre-Order link still not working for me.

#135 Alreech

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 02:20 PM

View PostC337Skymaster, on 11 May 2023 - 10:27 AM, said:

The key here is "easily". Just make it a little harder (skill based, or something. Honestly, it seems like it realistically would come down to trigger discipline, and holding your shot until you've got a proper shooting solution), to land all your weapons in the same spot, but closer together is still pretty good, and voila. You're good to go. It's this obsession with everything all hitting exactly the same pinpoint location that's causing all sorts of problems.

MWO is a shooter, players can put the crosshair over the big missle boxes of a Timber Wolf or the shoulder gun of a Marauder / Stone Rhino and hit it.
An because that exposed part of the mech model is part of the side torso that may contain parts of an XL engine such mechs have a weakness PGI tries to nerf with armor & structure buffs. If players avoid XL engines they still benefit from the buffs.
Pinpoint damage (all damage hits the same spot, because there is no deviation) just increases the chance to profit as attacker from this weakness.

The root cause of the weakness is the connection of a easy to hit part of the model to the side torso, and that can't be fixed with buffs or changing pinpoint damage*.
The fix is obvious: make such exposed parts of the model their own hit location, even if that breaks the "mechs must have 8 hit locations" rule from the boardgame.

Same with XL engines.
Just use the same rules for clan & IS XL engines and avoid the "indirect problem solving" with armor & structure buffs.
Fun fact: engine slots in the CT can't be critical damaged and everybody is fine with that, but engine slots in the side torso are so important that PGI needs to handle Clan & IS engine slots different.

#136 C337Skymaster

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Posted 12 May 2023 - 06:41 PM

View PostAlreech, on 12 May 2023 - 02:20 PM, said:

MWO is a shooter, players can put the crosshair over the big missle boxes of a Timber Wolf or the shoulder gun of a Marauder / Stone Rhino and hit it.
An because that exposed part of the mech model is part of the side torso that may contain parts of an XL engine such mechs have a weakness PGI tries to nerf with armor & structure buffs. If players avoid XL engines they still benefit from the buffs.
Pinpoint damage (all damage hits the same spot, because there is no deviation) just increases the chance to profit as attacker from this weakness.

The root cause of the weakness is the connection of a easy to hit part of the model to the side torso, and that can't be fixed with buffs or changing pinpoint damage*.
The fix is obvious: make such exposed parts of the model their own hit location, even if that breaks the "mechs must have 8 hit locations" rule from the boardgame.

Same with XL engines.
Just use the same rules for clan & IS XL engines and avoid the "indirect problem solving" with armor & structure buffs.
Fun fact: engine slots in the CT can't be critical damaged and everybody is fine with that, but engine slots in the side torso are so important that PGI needs to handle Clan & IS engine slots different.


When I started playing this game in 2015, and saw the damage art on the outsides of 'mechs, and it seemed as though it corresponded to the exact locations that got shot, I got really excited that PGI had implemented a Finite Element mesh to register precise damage locations. This was the same time that I expected to be able to open the battle map and fire my LRMs indirectly at a map location. I was disappointed to find out I was wrong on both counts.

Deviations from the rules that make the game more realistic and more "real-world", I'm okay with. Deviations that have no basis in realism, but are only because of "Muh Meta" I'm firmly against.

Increased granularity in targeting locations is fine by me. I 100% agree that if you're blowing off the missile ear on a 'mech, there's no way that should take out the entire torso beneath it, unless you crit the ammo feed belt and set off a chain reaction down into the magazine.

This is why I understand the change to running speed, and I'm okay with it. PGI simply UN-did a rounding error caused by 'mechs running a half-hex. I wish they would have done the same to tonnage rounding...

Edited by C337Skymaster, 12 May 2023 - 06:46 PM.


#137 PocketYoda

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 05:17 AM

View PostC337Skymaster, on 12 May 2023 - 04:45 AM, said:

I think HSL+1 will be more than sufficient. That allows you to fire an entire torso at a time, and just left/right your shots.


Nooooooo 14 at a time.. I want to pay back Crusaders and Piranhas..

Edited by PocketYoda, 13 May 2023 - 05:19 AM.


#138 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 07:19 AM

View PostPocketYoda, on 13 May 2023 - 05:17 AM, said:


Nooooooo 14 at a time.. I want to pay back Crusaders and Piranhas..


I assume this is a joke and you realise that this will never happen, because the 117 point alpha the inevitable 13 MPL + 2 LPL build would have would be gamebreakingly overpowered.

#139 Phaneron

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 10:21 AM

I really want to buy the Stone Rhino, I really do, but it's pointless to buy another assault, let alone 48 kph 100 tons of assault and there is really only one reason for this once you hit tier 1: nascar.

#140 -Ramrod-

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Posted 13 May 2023 - 11:48 AM

View PostPhaneroN7, on 13 May 2023 - 10:21 AM, said:

I really want to buy the Stone Rhino, I really do, but it's pointless to buy another assault, let alone 48 kph 100 tons of assault and there is really only one reason for this once you hit tier 1: nascar.


That's why you gotta stick with Faction Warfare. On defense this mech would be terribly hard to get through. I don't pilot assaults and most heavies in QP. Too much nascar and not much teamwork. Though I haven't played the game itself in several months due to a lack of interesting content.





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