148 replies to this topic

[CSJ Edward]

Tiy0s, on 07 December 2024 - 10:45 AM, said:

SR-1 was because people would run AC10 + Plasma which was very strong. Make the plasma a little hotter, slight tweak. The ERLL-Gauss or HAGvom is better on the SR-2.

Do not nerf the Plasma Cannon, it is one of the few Clan weapons that feels good to use in MWO and is not overpowered. Saying a weapon is overpowered just because it overperforms on a mech because of excessive quirks does not mean the weapon is the problem, it is the quirks on the mech that are the problem. Two of the most overperforming weapons in the game are MGs and RACs, especially on IS Mechs that have ridiculous quirks.

Finally, light mechs are not supposed to be able to tank damage like heavier mechs it is the skill of the pilot that is supposed to keep light mechs alive and that is the reason that you see such a wide range of performance results in games, because of the skill difference between pilots.

As much as I love the Clans, I believe the game would be better off if it just stuck to 3025 era tech and Mechs as close to BATTLETECH lore values as possible in a realtime game.

Edited by CSJ Edward, 07 December 2024 - 11:15 PM.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 07 December 2024 - 09:32 AM, said:

The slow Clan Lights (Adder, Kit Fox, Cougar) are terrible, performance wise they only do as much as mediums (and moves at similar speed too) without the armor or the weapon tonnage and while they do have bajillions of quirks, it has only managed to barely put them on par with most mediums due to rather underwhelming potency in some of said quirks.

You literally just admitted that Clan combat lights (the mid-range speed chassis) are on par with IS Mediums. Would... would you like to try again?

Ditto for the non sequitur: "Clantech is so not overpowered." "Oh yeah, well what about this cherry-picked subclass of Clan 'mechs that I just accidentally admitted wasn't underpowe- can I have a do-over?" "...no."

Edited by Void Angel, 08 December 2024 - 12:20 AM.

[w0qj]

I fully agree with Tiy0s / MWO, as a regular QP solo player T3/T4, and as a paying (real money) customer 2020-2024 (all of which qualified for ultimate loyalty rewards).

Perhaps folks have shorter memories, but in 2020 it did look like MWO was in trouble and with no new MWO development in sight.

It was solely due to Cauldron's input that rejuvenated MWO. Otherwise, we would literally have nothing right now (as in "no" MWO).

I fully agree with Tiy0s / MWO, especially with regards to recent decisions on mech/weapon quirk adjustments in patches.

Tiy0s, on 07 December 2024 - 10:45 AM, said:

SR-1 was because people would run AC10 + Plasma which was very strong. Make the plasma a little hotter, slight tweak. The ERLL-Gauss or HAGvom is better on the SR-2.

These changes aren’t misguided, I think after reading your build breakdown you may not just have a full understanding of what builds were most problematic on mechs. 4 Standard AC10 + 3 Plasma on the SR-1 was the most offensive build.

As for the others:
WHM-IIC-M is 2 HAG40 with a mega cooldown quirk. We chose not to nerf it at the moment, but still might. It’s mostly just a damage farmer, not a big killer.

BSK-6: 2 UAC10 2 UAC5 all in the high mounts. 5 UAC5s occasionally. This mech is getting nerfed.

EXE-B-C: The high scoring build on this mech is LB5 spam + a PPC. Like the Maul, this mech is a damage farmer and not a very big killer.

MAD-IIC-D: ECM godbox plus HAG ERLL with really good quirks. Got nerfed.

Aksum: Mega UACs. Got nerfed. Got nerfed again.

NSR-10P: 2 UAC5 2 UAC2 ECM has been a top tier farmer for years. Only relatively recently has it been deposed from first place.

Sleipnir: This mech actually suffered for a long time, cyclopses in general. Only after the Arges did we start buffing them and I am pleasantly surprised to see it’s doing well. It has a decent balance between firepower, mobility, and fragility that strikes me as well balanced.

Gausszilla: Mega HAG farm. Honestly this mech is fine in my opinion.

Mako: This one I feel like you’re the most far off the mark here. The build, like the SR-1, is 4 AC10 and 3 Plasma. UAC+ERLL isn’t really a viable archetype on any mech tbh. But this mech also got nerfed.

Longbow 7V: This is not surprising if you know the builds for it. 4 BLC 5 ERML is a very, very, strong vomit build.

Fafnir 5: This mech performs incredibly well in the lower tiers and gets worse the higher you go. Lower tier players, especially in lights, are much more likely to stand still. Against a trial mech with 2 heavy gauss, that’s instant death.


This is another reason why, in order to be in cauldron, you have to be a very knowledgeable player of the game. Most cauldron players are very high level competitive players with an extreme depth of understanding. You can’t effectively decide which mechs get buffs or nerfs if you don’t understand how well they perform with their most optimal builds.

Tiy0s, on 07 December 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

On the cauldron feedback and cauldron private servers, I provide data on how mechs perform in quickplay in roughly 3 month intervals. In the last capture, which was Aug 21 2024 to Nov 14 2024, the top performing mechs in quickplay were:
- Warhammer IIC Maul
- Bullshark 6
- Executioner B-C(Sovereign)
- Marauder IIC D
- Stone Rhino Aksum
- Nightstar 10P
- Cyclops Sleipnir
- Annihilator Clan Gausszilla
- Bullshark Clan Mako
- Longbow 7V
- Fafnir 5(this is also a trial mech, stats are included. That trial mech performs anomalously well compared to others)

One thing I will note is that this is not a sign we need to buff lighter mechs. Light mechs have much higher variance, some players score 10 damage and die in them while some run circles around entire enemy teams. The average landed them right in the middle, but at their peak they are just as strong(sometimes stronger) than their heavier counterparts.

However, out of those 11 mechs I posted, 6 of them are clan. Which is a pretty healthy spread in my opinion.

Also, while they are not listed in the top mechs due to the average spread I gave above, there are some mechs that should be on that list for strongest. Shadow Cat is problematic in how powerful it is. FLE-19 was problematic as well, but the nerf/buff combo it had should reduce its variance and equalize it a bit. A few charger variants, nerfed this patch, were also far too strong.

Stone Rhino was still a little too strong on a few variants, with this they should be good. Scaleshot will still be good post patch. A single Bane got nerfed but 3 of them got turbo buffed and I think we might buff another.

A final note before I go back to what was supposed to be my vacation weekend lol. I know people are unhappy with mechs getting nerfed after they come out. Scaleshot, Stone Rhino, Bullshark, Scattershot, Aksum, there’s a lot of examples. I get that, and I try to avoid it. We’ve had a bit of a problem with that in cauldron and I’m honestly the biggest one to blame for it. I’ve been pushing hard for mechs to be “memorable” on release and that sometimes means accidentally over cooking with them. With the Bane, we tried a more moderate approach with room to buff later rather than going full throttle. As a result, we had to nerf one variant and buffed a bunch of others. I know there were a few others who felt the mech was DOA, but overall we’ve been pretty pleased with how the Bane has performed in this more moderate approach. I hope we can keep that mindset for future mech packs, boosters, legends, etc.

Cauldron doesn’t have access to a public test server, hell I don’t even have one of those. So we do our best to get things working on paper, but what comes in the patch is what comes in the patch. Balance is a live updating thing and if something is broken we’ll just have to fix it. So stick with us, things will always be made right eventually.

Edited by w0qj, 08 December 2024 - 12:24 AM.

[Void Angel]

CSJ Edward, on 07 December 2024 - 11:14 PM, said:

Do not nerf the Plasma Cannon, it is one of the few Clan weapons that feels good to use in MWO and is not overpowered.

He's talking about the Stone Rhino 1, not the Plasma Cannon's actual stats - the goal of removing the SR-1's energy weapons from its heat quirk was to make the Plasma Cannon a bit more costly in terms of heat for the specific build he was discussing.

[Void Angel]

Znozoic, on 07 December 2024 - 05:02 PM, said:

in 58 leg armor... It's a glass cannon! what's the point if you're not going to do any harm? ( you have 100% a accuracy... right? )

Oh, boy... if you assume 50% accuracy - which will only happen if you're out of position and taking swings at Lights, you will still do 720 damage plus any strike consumable you employ. It's not hard math; you're crying a lot for what this is, as well as making things up.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 December 2024 - 12:34 AM.

[Void Angel]

Tiy0s, on 07 December 2024 - 10:45 AM, said:

[nerf explanations]

What was up with the Scaleshot nerf - more of a trade-off for bringing bigger SRMs?

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 08 December 2024 - 12:20 AM, said:

You literally just admitted that Clan combat lights (the mid-range speed chassis) are on par with IS Mediums. Would... would you like to try again?

Ditto for the non sequitur: "Clantech is so not overpowered." "Oh yeah, well what about this cherry-picked subclass of Clan 'mechs that I just accidentally admitted wasn't underpowe- can I have a do-over?" "...no."

What's your point? This is a (mostly) 12v12 game with no respawn, a light that only comes up as a "mediocre medium" *is* a poor feature of the game. This isn't "Battletech" where low C-Bills, Tonnage, or BV values which were the main strength of medium-light spams are a thing. Both teams starts with 12 players each with a single vehicle (barring FP or drop deck events that are poorly balanced because mechs are NOT [and shouldn't be] solely balanced by tonnage), that's it, no more, and the fact that you see that the statement of a "light mechs performing barely as well as mediums makes them strong!" is rather telling that you only value tonnage and don't see mechs by their "roles" instead, of which these slow lights are barely adequate at.

They are medium mechs in role without as much performance of a real medium, AND without the main advantages of being a light.

Edited by Ttly, 08 December 2024 - 01:39 AM.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

What's your point? This is a (mostly) 12v12 game with no respawn, a light that only comes up as a "mediocre medium" *is* a poor feature of the game. This isn't "Battletech" where low C-Bills, Tonnage, or BV values which were the main strength of medium-light spams are a thing. Both teams starts with 12 players each with a single vehicle (barring FP or drop deck events that are poorly balanced because mechs are NOT [and shouldn't be] balanced by tonnage), that's it, no more, and the fact that you see that the statement of a "light mechs performing barely as well as mediums makes them strong!" is rather telling that you only value tonnage and don't see mechs by their "roles" instead, of which these slow lights are barely adequate at.

They are medium mechs in role without as much performance of a real medium, AND without the main advantages of being a light.

Doubling down on the non sequitur, are we? Great! By abandoning your original argument, you have admitted that it was wrong. Thank you for your accidental honesty.

And nobody said whether those combat Lights were strong or not. Well, you did, when you claimed they were as strong as the Mediums you were trying to use as a comparison of how weak they supposedly are - and now you're back to claiming that they're weak. So which is it? Are they at razor-thin parity with the rest of the 'mechs that perform their role, or are they somehow getting the worst of both worlds, as opposed to, say, having a Medium's firepower with a Light's handling, and durability between the two? Why does "on par" mean "just barely adequate" when you fondly imagine it'll help you make a point? I'm just trying to figure out which one of you I'm talking to right now.

[edit: lost a half-sentence in editing]

Don't think that you're going to be able to move the goalposts and get me to engage with your sophistry any further. You contradicted yourself, and now you're contradicting yourself again, trying to squirm your way to some kind of victory. I'd have thought by now you'd have realized it isn't going to work.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 December 2024 - 05:11 AM.

[martian]

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

This is a (mostly) 12v12 game with no respawn

You mean, similar to BattleTech? Because BattleTech is also "a (mostly) 12v12 game with no respawn".

Have you ever played BattleTech?

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

a light that only comes up as a "mediocre medium" *is* a poor feature of the game.

Why?

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

This isn't "Battletech" where low C-Bills, Tonnage, or BV values which were the main strength of medium-light spams are a thing.

Except that Clan players do not do "medium-light spams" of Kit Fox, Adder or Cougar in BattleTech.

Have you ever played BattleTech?

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

Both teams starts with 12 players each with a single vehicle (barring FP or drop deck events that are poorly balanced because mechs are NOT [and shouldn't be] solely balanced by tonnage), that's it, no more, and the fact that you see that the statement of a "light mechs performing barely as well as mediums makes them strong!" is rather telling that you only value tonnage and don't see mechs by their "roles" instead, of which these slow lights are barely adequate at.

And one role (one of many) of Kit Fox, Adder or Cougar is to boost the firepower of their team - both in BattleTech and MechWarrior Online.

Have you ever played BattleTech?

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

They are medium mechs in role without as much performance of a real medium, AND without the main advantages of being a light.

Well-used Kit Fox, Adder or Cougar can engage IS medium 'Mechs successfully in BattleTech. They can do it in MechWarrior Online too, even though the Clan 'Mechs have been toned down in comparison with their BattleTech originals.

[Navid A1]

Void Angel, on 08 December 2024 - 12:33 AM, said:

What was up with the Scaleshot nerf - more of a trade-off for bringing bigger SRMs?

Yes. To promote a 6xSRM4 + SPL (or SRM6+SRM4+SRM2+SPL) build on it with more than enough ammo.
And to prevent it from taking the role of much heavier SRM mechs.
Take a look at its massive missile related quirks.

Edited by Navid A1, 09 December 2024 - 10:07 AM.

[Ttly]

martian, on 08 December 2024 - 02:42 AM, said:

-snip-

The BT variations of IS mechs aren't these souped up mechs all running XL or Light Engines that are faster/ones with more sensible weight:rating, and with whatever weapons and tweaked out stats either, most people just play them in what on MWO would be considered the "stock" loadout, of course the clan lights just wipe the floor with them.

And you said it, if their role is to boost the team's firepower, well what do they accomplish that running a medium doesn't on MWO, if not better? By running something sub-par when a directly better alternative is just sitting there, it's implicitly soft-griefing your own team/yourself in the name of roleplaying or something, it's not too different from some group drops running some gimmick mechs to have fun sure, and you're entitled to do that mind you. But having it enforced artificially when it really shouldn't by the game's own mechanics is another thing. That's how you get games bloated with noob-traps like LACs, PACs, and beam lasers (that's also getting nerfed here), when UACs, C-ERLLs, exists or in this case, in chassis and weight bracket. It's just the Ivory Tower game design that should've died well in late 90s or at least not even be entertained on a multiplayer game.

Oh also, I seriously doubt the Scaleshot ammo nerf would stop people running your usual 28SRM tubes Scaleshots, having only 2/3rd of the ammo they had before would still allow them to just bomb 2-3 mechs in a match anyway. Like yeah, wow, 2-3 mechs instead of 4-5 or something (assuming they don't get shot down first). Sucks to be one of those guys in a match regardless.

Edited by Ttly, 08 December 2024 - 04:04 AM.

[nanashi0110]

I wonder if all of Black Hawk's Arm variants are available on the C-bill.

I don't need them now, but am curious as there may come a time when I will need them.

[martian]

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 03:39 AM, said:

The BT variations of IS mechs aren't these souped up mechs all running XL or Light Engines that are faster/ones with more sensible weight:rating, and with whatever weapons and tweaked out stats either, most people just play them in what on MWO would be considered the "stock" loadout, of course the clan lights just wipe the floor with them.

Thus, Kit Fox, Adder or Cougar are doing their job in BattleTech, and they are doing a similar job in MechWarrior Online.

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 03:39 AM, said:

And you said it, if their role is to boost the team's firepower, well what do they accomplish that running a medium doesn't on MWO, if not better?

In the Quick Play, I take a light 'Mech with the firepower comparable with the firepower of some IS medium 'Mech, and with much smaller size, but I take up only a light 'Mech's slot when it comes to the matchmaking.

In the Faction Play, Clan player uses much less tonnage for his light 'Mech than IS player would with his IS 'medium 'Mech for bringing comparable firepower.

[Void Angel]

Navid A1, on 08 December 2024 - 03:20 AM, said:

Yes. To promote a 6xSRM4 + SPL build on it with more than enough ammo.
And to prevent it from taking the role of much heavier SRM mechs.
Take a look at its massive missile related quirks.

Oh, I pointed those out to another poster just today. =]

[Haman Karn]

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 01:13 AM, said:

What's your point? This is a (mostly) 12v12 game with no respawn, a light that only comes up as a "mediocre medium" *is* a poor feature of the game. This isn't "Battletech" where low C-Bills, Tonnage, or BV values which were the main strength of medium-light spams are a thing. Both teams starts with 12 players each with a single vehicle (barring FP or drop deck events that are poorly balanced because mechs are NOT [and shouldn't be] solely balanced by tonnage), that's it, no more, and the fact that you see that the statement of a "light mechs performing barely as well as mediums makes them strong!" is rather telling that you only value tonnage and don't see mechs by their "roles" instead, of which these slow lights are barely adequate at.

They are medium mechs in role without as much performance of a real medium, AND without the main advantages of being a light.

Thank you, a lot of people seem to forget this is an FPS game and every one on the team should be equal in the amount of fun they can have, a Wasp works in Battletech but would be ridiculous in MWO.
The majority of people i see complaining about lights are running 100ton assaults, maybe try something that can actually turn its torso before wanting the game to change around you.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 03:39 AM, said:

And you said it, if their role is to boost the team's firepower, well what do they accomplish that running a medium doesn't on MWO, if not better? By running something sub-par when a directly better alternative is just sitting there...

---

Oh also, I seriously doubt the Scaleshot ammo nerf would stop people running your usual 28SRM tubes Scaleshots, having only 2/3rd of the ammo they had before would still allow them to just bomb 2-3 mechs in a match anyway. Like yeah, wow, 2-3 mechs instead of 4-5 or something (assuming they don't get shot down first). Sucks to be one of those guys in a match regardless.

And here we are again, trying to figure out which of your personalities is talking right now. Not that it matters too much: "at par" does not become "sub-par" just because it's more convenient for your argument - which is based on a begged question to begin with. Because while you can cherry-pick 'mechs that are generally under-performers, the fact is that Clan combat Lights can and do perform well in a Medium's role for the Clans. They're (sometimes) a little more fragile, and a little more agile, in general; and they can still mount enough guns to operate as a mobile firepower platform, bringing more agility and speed, and a little less durability, to that role.

And you're talking about two chassis here, that are truly limited to "medium speeds" - and one of them is an UrbanMech. All the other slower Lights on the Clan side are still running 97+ kph, and there are plenty of IS Light builds that are comparable in speed, while the tonnage sacrificed by IS Mediums to reach that velocity dramatically hampers their ability to bring guns to go with that engine. All of which is by design; that's one of the ways the two tech bases pursue MWO's asymmetric balance, and overall it works pretty well.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 December 2024 - 06:20 AM.

[Ttly]

martian, on 08 December 2024 - 04:09 AM, said:

Thus, Kit Fox, Adder or Cougar are doing their job in BattleTech, and they are doing a similar job in MechWarrior Online. In the Quick Play, I take a light 'Mech with the firepower comparable with the firepower of some IS medium 'Mech, and with much smaller size, but I take up only a light 'Mech's slot when it comes to the matchmaking. In the Faction Play, Clan player uses much less tonnage for his light 'Mech than IS player would with his IS 'medium 'Mech for bringing comparable firepower.

"Matchmaking slot" Seriously? That thing that barely works and ends up putting lopsided team tonnages all the time because hey, a "bad game is better than no game"? And drop deck tonnage for FP? You know on the IS Side (265t drop deck limit) you can do something like 2 Stalkers+1 Flea/Locust+1 75t, all of which are actually good picks. While on Clans (255t drop deck limit) you get what? 2 Assaults, maybe two MADIICs (or WHM2C), a Heavy or medium that can't be more than 65t (assuming MAD2Cs) if you want to squeeze a light as your 4th drop (and you'd be stuck with a Piranha (extremely glass and hard to play) or Mist Lynx (anemic damage other than the MG variant) if you go with a 60-65t heavy of which the only options are derpy stuff like the Mad Dog, Linebacker, Rifleman IIC, Hellbringer, or Hellfire, not that they're the worst vehicles ever, but clearly not considered that great as it currently is outside of like maybe the Rifleman IIC, so that is already highly limiting if you want to go with a heavy, and results in a drop deck where only like half of it can really be called great picks.
Or you can go with a medium+one of the pseudomediums lights right? Yeah, might as well just pick 2 Vipers or something rather than a medium without the armor, or mobility of lights.

Edited by Ttly, 08 December 2024 - 08:09 AM.

[martian]

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 07:44 AM, said:

"Matchmaking slot" Seriously? That thing that barely works and ends up putting lopsided team tonnages all the time because hey, a "bad game is better than no game"?

The Match Maker exists and influences every single Quick Play game.

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 07:44 AM, said:

And drop deck tonnage for FP? You know on the IS Side (265t drop deck limit) you can do something like 2 Stalkers+1 Flea/Locust+1 75t, all of which are actually good picks. While on Clans (255t drop deck limit) you get what? 2 Assaults, maybe two MADIICs (or WHM2C), a Heavy or medium that can't be more than 65t (assuming MAD2Cs) if you want to squeeze a light as your 4th drop (and you'd be stuck with a Piranha (extremely glass and hard to play) or Mist Lynx (anemic damage other than the MG variant) if you go with a 60-65t heavy of which the only options are derpy stuff like the Mad Dog, Linebacker, Rifleman IIC, Hellbringer, or Hellfire, not that they're the worst vehicles ever, but clearly not considered that great as it currently is outside of like maybe the Rifleman IIC, so that is already highly limiting if you want to go with a heavy, and results in a drop deck where only like half of it can really be called great picks.

Thank you for your personal opinion.

And now you can consider that other players can pick different 'Mechs than you would take.

Ttly, on 08 December 2024 - 07:44 AM, said:

Or you can go with a medium+one of the pseudomediums lights right? Yeah, might as well just pick 2 Vipers or something rather than a medium without the armor, or mobility of lights.

Kit Fox, Adder or Cougar are light 'Mechs, thus their mobility is the subset of the light 'Mech mobility category. Thus, they have the mobility of light 'Mechs. Like it or not.

Also, every MWO player can decide how he uses the allocated tonnage.

[simon1812]

bulshark and blackhawk for CBs yay!!

[Pelmeshek]

InnerSphereNews, on 05 December 2024 - 11:30 PM, said:

Clan Autocannon/20:

• Increased range to 400 m (from 360 m)
  
• Increased max range to 800 m (from 720 m)

BANE-L:

• Increased LT Armor bonus to +10 (from +7) - Same as RT
  
• Added 20% Ballistic range

CAC20 buff are nice, but why buff Ballistic range for hero Bane? Its gonna be like >480m pinpoint (thx for hero TK) with only 2cac20, a little bit strange move here.