137 replies to this topic

[Razor Kotovsky]

Telecleez, on 16 August 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

but mostly i think its the tech and sense of honor that they espouse

They talk a lot about honor until they actually fight with you in mechwarrior. Then suddenly it is "plowing through mechs with focused fire" time.

I don't claim to be a saint but i never leg, steal sure kills or even join in a 2v1 on the winning side.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 16 August 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[SilentSooYun]

Razor Kotovsky, on 16 August 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

They talk a lot about honor until they actually fight with you in mechwarrior. Then suddenly it is "plowing through mechs with focused fire" time.

This. A thousand times this.
Maybe (maybe) one or two are true diehard Clan roleplayers and will follow zellbrigen to the bitter end (or at least until they start taking damage), but the vast, vast, VAST majority will be your standard-issue Munchkin looking for the sweet tech and the easy win.

[Evinthal]

TG Xarbala, on 16 August 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree that Clantech went the wrong direction from the start. Wholesale superiority rather than extreme specialization brought about by their extremely specialized warrior culture. That's part of why I find the inevitable inclusion of Clantech as something fearsome and terrible, and IS tech won't even be remotely competitive until the FedCom Civil War era.

I don't dislike the Jihad and actually found the sourcebooks and cutaway fiction interesting reads, moreso than a soap-opera style novel in the classic Battletech fashion. In fact, I actually quite like the Jihad, flaws and all, and you don't even get that much in some circles. I just think that the Wars of Reaving went by a lot more smoothly with fewer leaps of logic. Those were the problems with developing the WoB as a legitimate interstellar threat and justifying their derail from "let's exterminate the Clans" to "let's watch the Sphere burn (and, spoilers, secretly encourage the creation of a new Republic)." Some people were willing to roll with it and appreciate a good smack-down drag out total war that puts the Smoke Jaguars to shame, but the logical compromises and the unfortunate removal of a lot of up-and-coming new-generation-of-leaders characters in favor of the survival of such interesting stalwarts as VSD and Kai Allard-Liao and the rise of Devlin Stone kind of put a damper on some people's enthusiasm.

Personally, I just think the Wars of Reaving managed to follow plotlines and bring about sweeping changes through logical conclusions and old-fashioned ruthlessness. So I give the slight advantage to the Clan side of the metaplot at the time.

It'll be decades before we get to see interesting post-Tukayyid stuff though, if the game continues to follow a strict realtime calendar with no timeskips.

And one last aside: I find it difficult to begrudge Clan Hell's Horses for the Hellstar. I'm too busy blaming them for the Epona.

Agreed, and good on you for actually reading the Jihad (and liking it to some extent) and not just basing an opinion on "a friend of a friend of a friend told me XYZ about the Jihad, and it sucks!". Yeah the Wars of Reaving was a bit smoother, and it was brewing for a long time, so it was bound to happen I think.

I hope they do some time jumps to skim over some of the less interesting parts of the time line. The whole Epona bit made me laugh, so I have to ask, how do you like the Cygnus?

[TG Xarbala]

Evinthal, on 16 August 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Agreed, and good on you for actually reading the Jihad (and liking it to some extent) and not just basing an opinion on "a friend of a friend of a friend told me XYZ about the Jihad, and it sucks!". Yeah the Wars of Reaving was a bit smoother, and it was brewing for a long time, so it was bound to happen I think.

I hope they do some time jumps to skim over some of the less interesting parts of the time line. The whole Epona bit made me laugh, so I have to ask, how do you like the Cygnus?

Indeed.

And at least it's not a Warhawk. TComps were bad enough, but then some people feel the need to attach Pulses to 'em. It only moves 4/6 and lacks some of the ludicrous range of other Clan Assaults so it's manageable. It helps that its variants have HAGs as main guns and anything a HAG can do a smattering of CLRMs of combined equal damage rating can do with more weight efficiency. On tabletop anyway.

In stock it's not a supremely optimized Clan machine but it's still a TComp Clanpulse boat.

[Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner]

TG Xarbala, on 16 August 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

And one last aside: I find it difficult to begrudge Clan Hell's Horses for the Hellstar. I'm too busy blaming them for the Epona.

Hey, what's wrong with the Epona? One of the finest vehicles ever created in BT IMO (along with the Alacorn IV&VII, the Regulator I&II, the Gürteltier and some others; should have a XXL engine though; but then again, every vehicle should have a XXL engine ;-P). Had much of fun with Eponas.
As for the Clan thing. I never got the hype too. Guess for a lot of people it's about the nice mechs and equipment (and yes, overall I too find most of the Clan Mechs are better looking than the IS Mechs (my favorites are still IS though)). So that part I get. But for the background? Never liked it. Even for BT standard I found most of it quite "stretching", stupid and disgusting. The "Wars of Reaving" was IMO the best and most believable part of the whole Clan Story.
But of course that doesn't mean I'm above taking their stuff. And I won't kill them if I capture some. The pretty ones can wax my car, the rest I sell straight to the Marian Hegemony to fight in the arena. That's what they like to do after all, isn't it? So everybody wins. I know, I know I'm such a nice person. ;D

[Joseph Mallan]

I agree with AJE Steiner (Dude abbreviate!!!) The Epona is a under appreciated tank. Clan Hype is easy to explain... Bad guys get all the cool toys!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 August 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[Incunabulum]

Faeron Wolf, on 16 August 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Better than the corrupt feudal economic slavery the Inner Sphere finds itself in..

Which is completely different from the militaristic feudal slavery the members of each clan find themselves in.

Edited by Incunabulum, 16 August 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Incunabulum]

Star Ace, on 16 August 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

What I do not understand is how clan tech can be implemented without seriously unbalancing the game, because most powergamers won't adhere to any sort of honor code, Zellbrigen or otherwise. Some players only play to win, and will get whatever advantage they can to do so (the IS mentality with the Clan firepower). I cannot imagine most Clan opponents not ganging up on IS Mechs with superior Tech. It makes sense in the tabletop game, since things can be balanced, but in a game where a few members of the population care about power more than the lore, I wonder how will this finally play out.

This is why I think we should either have started the timeline earlier (closer to 3025) or far later - decades after the introduction of the clans when it wouldn't be incongruous for everyone to have acess to gear from both tech bases.

[Valaska]

Jost, on 16 August 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

It's not the possibility of conflict. It's the OP tech and the imaginary superiority. Most often, clans are preferred by people with (justifiably) low self esteem.

Mkay, kiddo you are taking the game too seriously and just trying to insult people at this point. Go treat your emphysema it seems to be making you cranky.

[Jimskiavic]

Meteor Hammer, on 16 August 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

As for why people want to be clan, I reckon a lot of the player base first encountered Battletech through Mechwarrior 2 where you played as Clan Wolf, or Clan Jade Falcon with Clan Ghost Bear in the expansion. People will have a soft spot for the clans if it is their first experience of mech combat.

This.

I had no idea about the broader BT universe when I played MW2 (& GBL), but really enjoyed the game and the culture of the factions in it. Eventually I learnt about the rest of the IS (and the other Clans), and the whole history of it all, but already had that Clan affinity.

[Bishop Steiner]

TG Xarbala, on 16 August 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree that Clantech went the wrong direction from the start. Wholesale superiority rather than extreme specialization brought about by their extremely specialized warrior culture. That's part of why I find the inevitable inclusion of Clantech as something fearsome and terrible, and IS tech won't even be remotely competitive until the FedCom Civil War era.

I don't dislike the Jihad and actually found the sourcebooks and cutaway fiction interesting reads, moreso than a soap-opera style novel in the classic Battletech fashion. In fact, I actually quite like the Jihad, flaws and all, and you don't even get that much in some circles. I just think that the Wars of Reaving went by a lot more smoothly with fewer leaps of logic. Those were the problems with developing the WoB as a legitimate interstellar threat and justifying their derail from "let's exterminate the Clans" to "let's watch the Sphere burn (and, spoilers, secretly encourage the creation of a new Republic)." Some people were willing to roll with it and appreciate a good smack-down drag out total war that puts the Smoke Jaguars to shame, but the logical compromises and the unfortunate removal of a lot of up-and-coming new-generation-of-leaders characters in favor of the survival of such interesting stalwarts as VSD and Kai Allard-Liao and the rise of Devlin Stone kind of put a damper on some people's enthusiasm.

Personally, I just think the Wars of Reaving managed to follow plotlines and bring about sweeping changes through logical conclusions and old-fashioned ruthlessness. So I give the slight advantage to the Clan side of the metaplot at the time.

It'll be decades before we get to see interesting post-Tukayyid stuff though, if the game continues to follow a strict realtime calendar with no timeskips.

And one last aside: I find it difficult to begrudge Clan Hell's Horses for the Hellstar. I'm too busy blaming them for the Epona.

It was no tthe Jihad story arc that bothered me.. it actually provided a brilliant break to the increasingly linear power augmentation the TROs and Sourcebooks had introduced over the previous decade. What I didn't like, was a lot of the actual tech used, and of course, what came after (Dark Age, Republic of the Sphere... a more forced and contrived game world I could hardly imagine.) And the fiction for the most part went totally into the toilet, where you can tell every scripted battle was played out as a MW:DA tourney, with stupid enforced balances, almost always very poorly explained. Even Stackpole and Loren Coleman for the most part could not write it up in an interesting manner. I think pretty much the only novel in the DA series I actually thought was truly good was Blood Avatar, and it didn't have a single Mech! Surrender Your Dreams had some interesting concepts, though I hated the choppy style, which left a lot really unexplained.

And of course.. Bonfire of Worlds? Stiiiiiiiiill waiting. (The Tucker Harwell story arc being one of the few that seemed to hold promise, even if a lot of the story around it was MEH).

Basically, if done right (which IMO, it wasn't) the Jihad WAS the perfect oppurtunity to splinter the IS for decades to centuries to come, kicking the IS AND Clans back into the love child of the Age of War and the Succession Wars. Instead we get the Dark Age of Camelot (Still convinced Devlin stone was a sleeper Wobbie, setting things up for a final fall), tech growing at an even MORE exponential rate, and yet oh yeah, everyone is runningaround in logger mechs.....

And as an aside... my friends friends brother didnt tell me squat. I have been playing BT since 87 or 88, and have read literally every novel, and almost every page of every sourcebook, 1, 2 3 and 4th edition until Project Phoenix and such dropped, after which I became convinced that Wizkids/Fanpro were just performing money grabs ala Wizards of the Coast with D&D 27.5 edition. The Jihad stuff is some of the little I have read since, and I have hopes that CGL works to bring the title back where it belongs, especially with more support for succession war and even original starleague stuff, beside just running dark age stuff. Am hopeful if MWO blows up huge it will give CGL the influx of interest it needs to further develop the line.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 16 August 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Kale Allaird Chi]

I've played both, I prefer IS mainly because its so very satisfying to stomp a clanner with supposedly inferior tech.

[Odanan]

I'm sympathetic with the clans because I discover Battletech through MW2. I could easily plan as a Jade Falcon (tough I find the clan ideology silly).

[Lycan]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why are so many people in love with them to the extent that even thoug MW:O is still in beta they keep asking when clans will be introduced.

For me, even though clan tech is teh awesomes, who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

It can't be about the possibility of conflict - the smallest IS polity has more going on in this area than any of the clans.

Because most of those that want the Clans don't give a rats behind about the "rigid class system". They just want it for the tech. Which is way better than the IS's . . .

[TG Xarbala]

Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner, on 16 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Hey, what's wrong with the Epona? One of the finest vehicles ever created in BT IMO (along with the Alacorn IV&VII, the Regulator I&II, the Gürteltier and some others; should have a XXL engine though; but then again, every vehicle should have a XXL engine ;-P). Had much of fun with Eponas.

Joseph Mallan, on 16 August 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

I agree with AJE Steiner (Dude abbreviate!!!) The Epona is a under appreciated tank. Clan Hype is easy to explain... Bad guys get all the cool toys!

Underappreciated? Hardly!

Imagine how it must feel to be the guy on the other side of the ultrafast pulseboat rocketsled's crosshairs. The Epona is so good it's infuriating.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Basically, if done right (which IMO, it wasn't) the Jihad WAS the perfect oppurtunity to splinter the IS for decades to centuries to come, kicking the IS AND Clans back into the love child of the Age of War and the Succession Wars. Instead we get the Dark Age of Camelot (Still convinced Devlin stone was a sleeper Wobbie, setting things up for a final fall), tech growing at an even MORE exponential rate, and yet oh yeah, everyone is runningaround in logger mechs.....

I think the last Jihad sourcebook and hints in Bonfire would imply that, yes, Devlin Stone was a Wobbie plant and that the Republic of the Sphere was just a clean-slate continuation of the Protectorate of Blake. Though I've not read Bonfire, I'm going by hearsay on this one.

On Bonfire, I wouldn't expect it to go into print anytime soon. The BT devs don't have any major publishing contracts with Roc Books anymore. This is why there's no more new paper novels and everything is either a Battlecorps exclusive or insert fluff in a sourcebook.

[Joseph Mallan]

OP, Have you seen their recruiting posters???
http://www.sarna.net...per_Warrior.jpg

[Rejarial Galatan]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why are so many people in love with them to the extent that even thoug MW:O is still in beta they keep asking when clans will be introduced.

For me, even though clan tech is teh awesomes, who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

It can't be about the possibility of conflict - the smallest IS polity has more going on in this area than any of the clans.

for me, it is simple. I came in under Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat. I fought as a warrior of Clan Wolf, and as such, fell in love with the Clans and how they work. They for me, are everything the IS is not, ordered, precise, say what they mean, do what they say, and for the most part, are just what I think it is to be a MechWarrior.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

For me, even though clan tech is teh awesomes, who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

You are clearly not very knowledgeable about the lore of BattleTech. The Clans pushed technology far beyond anything the Inner Sphere ever had even before they bombed themselves into the stone age. Superior science (especially genetics) and technology is an integral part of the Clans. The Clans also dislike large-scale warfare, viewing it as wasteful. When possible they fight in a manner to waste as little as possible while still achieving victory. It is the Inner Sphere that has the majority of massive, highly destructive wars.

Jost, on 16 August 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

It's not the possibility of conflict. It's the OP tech and the imaginary superiority. Most often, clans are preferred by people with (justifiably) low self esteem.

I find this quite amusing. I am fully certain every faction in BattleTech has fans with "low self esteem." Do I have low self esteem? No. In fact, to be completely honest with myself I am probably overly cocky and confident. Anyway, it is the people who always rage about the Clans that create the most sour rift in the BattleTech fanbase. If you want to try and break up what should be a unity, even though we all have differences, then I will simply ignore you until your 'Mech stands before mine. Try to be less naive next time you post.

[NargilFenris]

I started out on MW2 but even after I learned of the different IS nations and the different Clans I still held fast to my love of the Ghost Bears. Their leaders choose to stay together even if it meant death. Besides who wouldn't love a clan that won a planet by a game of football.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rejarial, did you ever play the game from the Jade Falcon side? Becoming Khan was a major major ******!

Kurita is a good fit if you cannot play Clan. Great chapter in Wolf on the Border where the Dragoon's are Challenging the warriors of the DCMS to Clan honor combat. It was a first look at how Clans were going to be doing things! The Kurita soldiers did well.

Quote

Most often, clans are preferred by people with (justifiably) low self esteem.

Glad you threw in that qualifier "Most Often". Clanners were a very warriorcentric society. Where Might made right, It was to me quite similar to (if not exaggerated) Samurai mentality. I find that quite Honorable, as I do House Kurita.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 August 2012 - 08:17 PM.