249 replies to this topic

[Adridos]

Chuckie, on 10 February 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

So if you can not accept your house is a fanatical military dictatorship with its own totalitarian cult of personality.. then I understand, its all the Capellan brainwashing you have had since a child and you will never understand.

BUT, every nation in the IS is like that. That means they brainwash everyone (do not argue with me on this one) from Capellans, to Lyrans. And that means it is NORMAL and thus cannot be considered as brainwashing and thus we are not brainwashed. Either that, or you will have to prove that I, a normal Capellan citizen, am brainwashed and you are not. Try to beat my logic.

Edited by Adridos, 10 February 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Chuckie]

Adridos, on 10 February 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

BUT, every nation in the IS is like that. That means they brainwash everyone (do not argue with me on this one) from Capellans, to Lyrans. And that means it is NORMAL and thus cannot be considered as brainwashing and thus we are not brainwashed. Either that, or you will have to prove that I, a normal Capellan citizen, am brainwashed and you are not. Try to beat my logic.

On that argument.. I can also beat your logic..

1) As all houses are corrupt and we are a "For Hire" Merc Unit.. we don't have to deal with other houses.


2) As a Northwind Highlander, and living under both Liaos and Davion, I realized (as did my brethren ) both were corrupt in their own ways

3) Davion gave us Northwind to live as our own autonomous collective.



So you see we don't have to deal with thier (or other houses) petty politics as long as they leave us to our own devices. So to us we are not "pro" FedCom we just happen to be in their realm of influence so playing nice is a neccessary evil. Just as working for the Capellans 21 years ago was a necessary evil.

So with that all said.. Ni ! Niiii.....! Ni........! Be forewarned we will say Ni again if you do not appease us.. !

Spoiler

You ALL Knew this is where I was going with this sooner or later..

Edited by Chuckie, 10 February 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Adridos]

You did not beat my logic, you just used 3rd person view to talk about 3rd person things. Thanks for approwing, BTW.

[Chuckie]

Adridos, on 10 February 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

You did not beat my logic, you just used 3rd person view to talk about 3rd person things. Thanks for approwing, BTW.

NI... !

Edited by Chuckie, 10 February 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[FireNova]

Aldous, on 09 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

IMO... that's the main reason Battletech hasn't been more broadly received by the public. The Horde may be the underdog in WoW but at least they weren't outnumbered by 5-1.

Who want's to play a game where you're a guaranteed winner or loser?

Sadly, you may very well be absolutely correct on this. This is also the very reason why the devs/writers/whoever drives the BattleTech Universe need to stop killing off fanbases and establish a much more lore moderate, new player friendly type of Universe so that BattleTech can get out of the past and into the modern age. I mean lets face it, Davion's realm/territory will ALWAYS be the size of a huge truck that has a sign on it that says: WIDE LOAD. Davions will ALWAYS have huge numbers of planets (and map space) they control. Whereas Liao will almost always have "cramped space" when it comes to realm size/territory. But at the very least it establishes a place for the "other faction" (namely the Liaos here) to attack the Davion's from.

Now take THIS manageable case for the Davions vs Liaos gameplay wise and then take a look at what the JAGUARS get based on "canon." If they had left it with, say, Jaguars vs Kuritans, I think eventually the Kuritans would have taken back most worlds without the help from the other Houses, weakened the Jaguars (through either combat or sabotage/information warfare), left the Jaguars intact but struggling to regain worlds from the Kuritan counterattack, and everything would have been balanced out fine.

IMHO, I don't mind playing as underdog factions (Horde for WoW for instance). I wouldn't mind fighting against a Kuritan counterattack and barely manage to retake a few worlds or have our occupation zone with maybe 10 worlds left at best in most cases. But its things like Op Bulldog and Serpent where a fanbase is REJECTED and PREVENTED from participating simply because said fanbase choose to play as Jaguars and there is a huge bias against them by writers/devs or whoever it may be....THATS what needs to change. Its like the regulatory government rules:KILLING JOBS. Same case (or nearly) could be made for BattleTech: Overburdening rules/lore elitism KILLING casual gamer/free choice participation and when you kill participation, you kill potential PROFIT (looking at it from a business perspective...something the devs have got to know about here).

I mean seriously, if Catalyst were making Smoke Jaguar sourcebooks or they suddenly brought the Jaguars back post Dark Age and whatnot, I would buy said products (as im sure others would no doubt). So far they haven't so meh. Like wise for Blood Spirit or Steel Viper players and others who wish to join in post Wars of Reaving. Its like we are being forced to accept stuff or similar to having a government telling us what to buy or not to buy. If I want to play as a Smoke Jaguar in MWO, I should damn well be allowed to without being forced out. later on (assuming there are timewarps to 3060 the devs do). If I wanted to say, buy a certain SJ camo option that PGI offered, then I would probably go for that as well, but when I see nothing but Clan Wolf stuff, Jade Falcon stuff, Ghost Bear stuff, Davion stuff, etc. then im not interested and I don't buy said things. Free choice is what will help BattleTech grow. The longer BattleTech and the hardcore fanbase cling to the past, the more and more BattleTech will get left behind and eventually die out altogether.

I truly hope the devs are listening or at the least wanting to make a fun and balanced game and quite possibly ignore some of the "canon" (I know horrifying as that may sound) so that everyone (both new AND old alike) can have a fun and enjoyable BattleTech/MechWarrior experience. Because that is what we are here for: FUN. NOT lore elitism, NOT removing playerbases from participating, NOT discouraging new players from playing Smoke Jaguar or Capellan Confederation, NOT discouraging people from purchasing their favorite faction colors, etc.

Whether im fighting to defend Smoke Jaguar Occupation Zone worlds or fighting on some Deep Periphery world post Bulldog/Serpent (aka Smoke Jaguar Periphery Faction style), I am hoping that everyone can enjoy a true BattleTech/MechWarrior experience and remember it for years to come. It is time for BattleTech to embrace the future.

/end rant

*devs see post*

*NUCLEAR ROUNDHOUSE DETECTED!*

[Max OConnor]

Chuckie you are correct in that the ruling body of certain houses are and can be authoritative and dictitorial, my argument is that the rulers do not represent the average person of that nation. Throught the inner sphere history there have been despots in all of the houses. Barbara Liao was one of our best leaders and better by far than any other House leader of any generation I would say, so its lazy writing on the parts of the authors to color one whole group as bad or good. Max Liao was no worse than Hanse Davion, he just didn't pretend to be something he isn't. Hanse Davion was responisble for more deaths than Romano Liao on her worst day. Hanse Davion killed billons of people all for power and ego. All House leaders are like this, so its stupid to pretend they aren't.

Sun Tzu was exactly the leader we needed to rally our people together to stand against the privations of the other greedy House Lords who want territory for the sake of nothing more than power. If they try to say, oh we are liberating such and such people, its crap.

Look at the Davion / Steiner civil war, two spoiled siblings each grasping at power yet the authors try to paint them as simply one good, one bad.

When Sun Tzu refused to cooperate with the other inner sphere leaders who gathered together for the sumit on how to fight the clans, I could totally see his reasoning. *OH, so now that you are getting your collective butts kicked, and you see what its like to be the underdog, NOW you want us to put aside our past differences and pretend we are friends so YOU can save the part of your realm thats being destroyed.....................Hmmmmm, let me think.......................how about NO.

How about we sit back and watch you get your collective butts handed to you just as you would do to us if the clans were not here?
*grabs some popcorn and pulls up a chair to watch the show*

[Chuckie]

maxoconnor, on 10 February 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

How about we sit back and watch you get your collective butts handed to you just as you would do to us if the clans were not here?
*grabs some popcorn and pulls up a chair to watch the show*

Its going to be easy pickings if your in a chair and not a mech..

Anyway, There is a reason the Northwind Highlanders are a Merp Corps unit and not a house..

Last I checked in 3049 Davion does not "rule" Northwind.. they signed a pact with the Northwind Highlanders to allow us to rule autonomously (Similar to how Hong Kong is treated by China, the Channel Islands are independant of Britian, etc..etc..)

So you guys can have your petty fights and wars.. and when you need us.. bring some C-bills

We will fight against you (If someone pays us) and fight with you (if you do - But double my offer to fight you)

Edited by Chuckie, 10 February 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Adridos]

FireNova, on 10 February 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Very long rant...

Yeah, I agree that making us the worst was a bit "bad".

We get the worst leaders, we have bad interests, we are mindless slaves, no space to live in, terror in own ranks, we oppose the good guys, we always get our butts kicked,... At least by novels.

But posting it here will not achieve anything. Paul and inc. can not change this.

[IxxxI]

Holy ****, doesn't that talking doll work on Fridays? He has craped the topic just in 4 hours . If previously he just ignored the collocutors, their answers, binary logic, CC field manuals and maniacally posted something about North Korea, by now he sunk to the level of taunts and clips . The true Paladin of Ni. What next, Chuckie? You'll call it a draw?

I call upon the self-respecting men, lets return to civil discussion. After developers reacted on that topic (check that and that), Isee the wind changing its direction a bit, hope, we can expect something really interesting published finally (I still have one concern, after looking at Chukie's friends in his profile, if some of them have similar vision... we might get some chuckie-korean-like **** instead ). Why just not allow another culture live in their way and leave them alone?

Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

R. Kipling.

Edited by IxxxI, 10 February 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[Chuckie]

IxxxI, on 10 February 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Holy ****, doesn't that talking doll work on Fridays?

Its called being self employed

IxxxI, on 10 February 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Why just not allow another culture live in their way and leave them alone?

Geez.. don't kill the messenger.. Your the OP, and I was just answering your question..

You wanted to know why no one liked Capellans and why they were demonized.

So I gave you the answer.

[IxxxI]

Chuckie, on 10 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

So I gave you the answer.

Oh, yeah, you truly did, many posts ago:

Chuckie, on 09 February 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I LOVE taking stuff out of context

[Chuckie]

IxxxI, on 10 February 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Oh, yeah, you truly did, many posts ago...

Your Welcome.. all you had to was thank me for clarifying things for you..

Edited by Chuckie, 10 February 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[IxxxI]

No problem, I'm also glad that you

Chuckie, on 09 February 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

realize how wrong you are

[Alex Wolfe]

IxxxI, on 04 February 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

After reading today's news, I've returned to an old sad thought of mine, that ridiculously demonized Liao and Capellan Confederation is consequence of continuos information war. Previously I took it as heritage of 80s, cold war and so on, shadows of old fears reflected in the game lore to say.

Good point about the original lore being made in the 80's.

Battletech factions basically scream "Cold War isolationism/xenophobia". While it does have a certain charm, it would be nice if this reboot would introduce more shades of grey and depth to characters and political scene, besides making every "non-WASP-looking/sounding" faction into cartoony villains, with the only way being "Truth, Justice and The Davion Way". Seriously, even Stefan Amaris (portrayed as "the worst man who ever lived") is an Evil Asian Mastermind caricature complete with Fu Manchu mustache. It's about as sensible as if WB/Disney cartoons from the 30-40's, full of racial stereotyping considered offensive nowadays, were being recreated and broadcasted today.

Keeping all this unmitigated might please the purists, but... straight-up demonizing all but one (make it two, considering Marik dirt is mostly under the radar) factions Harkonnen-style will end up alienating a big chunk of the playerbase, in the vein of "be Davion or be evil/working for madmen who can't manage their own country/power-hungry idiots destined to lose"). Also, it's not all that feasible that there's only one military in the galaxy that has both superior morals, and two grey cells to rub together and sweep all the stakes (as a Deus ex machina cataclysmic event was needed to stop the utterly pro-Victor lore from having him crush the entire universe beneath the weight of his benevolent rule, and ending any possibility of BattleTech continuing forever).

Just look at what happened with previous Mech games because of most of the factions were made so unsympathetic: in MW3 the player was FC but siding with Davion, MechCommander - Davion Guard, MechCommander 2 was mercenary (SPOILERS!) but Steiner and Liao ended up caricatures again and the player ended up siding with Davion again, MechWarrior 4 - return of the Davion, BK mercenary (ambigous D vs. D, but... SPOILER: the final villain was a Steiner all along!), Mercenaries... most of the storyline was Davion-oriented (and Steiner/Liao missions were usually dishonorable and ill-advised from your superiors). I really wouldn't want a repeat of that, again.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 10 February 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[Chuckie]

IxxxI, on 10 February 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

What next....? <I>'ll call it a draw?

Spoiler

You asked for it.. you know you did..

BTW you KNOW the Black knight in this situation are the Capellans

Edited by Chuckie, 10 February 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[MilitantMonk]

@Firenova

It's a galaxy full of war. You can't resonably expect everyone to survive. I agree they should have done something akin to what Games Workshops does with their Armageddon campaigns and let the players at least have some input on the matter.

If factions weren't destroyed we'd still have the Terran Hegemony, the Star League, Rim Worlds Republic, and the Terran Alliance...etc. I shed a single tear for the Jaguars plight but I do for all the Star's End and Belt Pirates that got rolled right out of existence when the Clans showed up too.

[Max OConnor]

MilitantMonk, on 10 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

@Firenova

It's a galaxy full of war. You can't resonably expect everyone to survive. I agree they should have done something akin to what Games Workshops does with their Armageddon campaigns and let the players at least have some input on the matter.

If factions weren't destroyed we'd still have the Terran Hegemony, the Star League, Rim Worlds Republic, and the Terran Alliance...etc. I shed a single tear for the Jaguars plight but I do for all the Star's End and Belt Pirates that got rolled right out of existence when the Clans showed up too.

And fortunately, those who have read the Dark Age novels know that House Liao is still in the thick of things. We may be down but never out.

[FireNova]

MilitantMonk, on 10 February 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

@Firenova

It's a galaxy full of war. You can't resonably expect everyone to survive. I agree they should have done something akin to what Games Workshops does with their Armageddon campaigns and let the players at least have some input on the matter.

If factions weren't destroyed we'd still have the Terran Hegemony, the Star League, Rim Worlds Republic, and the Terran Alliance...etc. I shed a single tear for the Jaguars plight but I do for all the Star's End and Belt Pirates that got rolled right out of existence when the Clans showed up too.

While I do understand the logic behind your argument, I just simply think its counter-productive to have a game based on a competitive multiplayer aspect yet have the end result predetermined already and turn out the same result regardless of who wins/losses AND try to convince players to join a faction whose "fate" (in SJ's case a "minor periphery power" basically as they survived) was already decided from the get go?

And I haven't even gotten to the part where they might have things that you can purchase for each faction (for example camo decals or whatever that PGI will try to sell....you know...make a PROFIT from the game?). So say the devs time warp to 3060 (which I might suspect they do sometime as plans can change after all...that and following day by day, hour by hour time can be tedious) and SJ presence is removed off the map.....what then? Will they then suddenly "remove" SJ themed faction purchases and have everyone associatied with that said faction be forced to "reroll" or choose a different faction even though said SJ themed faction items/stuff/whatever were bought by loyal and devoted customers? Its like a store manager saying to a buyer, "hey buy this stuff even though I probably won't tell you that you can have it only for a limited amount of time until 3060 which is the expiration date for said items ". The only solution that the devs could possibly do to avoid alienating SJ playerbase post Bulldog/Serpent is to open up the Deep Periphery section of space and allow SJ to continue as a "Periphery faction" where SJ will survive gameplay wise but not decide major events in the Inner Sphere.

And on the issue of "can't resonably expect everyone to survive" part, Twilight of the Clans Jaguars, Bulldog/Serpent, whatever you want to call it.... the storyline had major flaws. Even if the "reborn Star League" seemed feasible, the House leaders still hated each other. Liao benefited more from recovering from the Fourth Succession War and retaking former Capellan worlds from the Davions than going after some far off threat that was currently beating on the Kuritans and Steiners primarily, Kurita was still hated and looked upon with disdain after the Kentares IV Massacre by a good part of the Davion people regardless of how long ago it was (First Succession War I believe). The Mariks had no real skin in the game because again, far off threat....not to mention a huge navy and numerous BattleMech forces and factory capabilities at their disposal. Basically put there was just simply too much animosity/little to benefit from a new Star League between the Houses for there to be a real Star League (hence why it fell apart again and was admittedly regarded as a political tool against the Clans...and the resulting Word of Norri- er Blake started destroying everything).

As for the pirates, there will always be pirates. Again, like the Jaguars post Bulldog/Serpent, there probably would be survivors. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if a few managed to escape from the Clans. Its like saying the Star League could manage to wipe out or control all the Periphery states completely during the Reunification War (and even if the Star League did completely, it cost them dearly to do so).

Either way, some "canon" aspects of BattleTech that will be in MWO need to be in "serious review" of some sort or at the least "flexible" so that everyone who participates can have a fun time and remember this game as a great mechwarrior game instead of remembering it as "Lorewarrior".

To summarize, regardless, it is simply counter-productive to discourage people from certain choices in a game (Jaguars, Capellans, wanting to play something other than Davion in general) and yet expect diversity and profits and growth and success overall.

[FireNova]

maxoconnor, on 10 February 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

And fortunately, those who have read the Dark Age novels know that House Liao is still in the thick of things. We may be down but never out.

Exactly. I remember playing one Dark Age/Age of Destruction game back when the game was gasping for its last breath. House Liao's units/capabilities were pretty impressive compared to the mostly standard stat units of the Republic of the Sphere (possibly better electronic gear, more unique/diversifying units (like LRM carriers, more infantry options, interesting mech choices etc).

And yeah the House Liao player won of course.

Either way I kinda wish the Age of Destruction game was continuing. Was an excellent alternative to the rules demanding CBT.

EDIT: Yeah I played Republic of the Sphere (Surrender Your Dreams ftw. )

Edited by FireNova, 10 February 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Dihm]

FireNova, on 10 February 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

To summarize, regardless, it is simply counter-productive to discourage people from certain choices in a game (Jaguars, Capellans, wanting to play something other than Davion in general) and yet expect diversity and profits and growth and success overall.

A complete lack of change or "big things happening" in the setting is also bad, people don't use the word stagnant, or stagnation, as a positive thing.