249 replies to this topic

[Exilyth]

In Battletech, for all the factions and all the bias towards certain factions during certain parts of the timeline, the universe as a whole is pretty balanced. Also, some sourcebooks being written from the perspective of a certain faction doesn't help dilute the issue of favorism.

Well, if you were the developer of a fictional universe and one of the factions was supposed to represent your own nationality, would you be able to describe all interactions between the factions without a bias, quineg?

The environment someone lives in and the people someone lives with influence that persons opinions a lot. Not everyone has the chance to look beyond their own nose and experience the culture they write about first hand, so it's no wonder authors fall back on stereotypes.

Still, there's no excuse not to do the research.

[IxxxI]

Ah, Chuckie, poor kid, are you still fertilizing that topic? Don't you shy for disruption of the ecological balance on this forum ? Would you post another boring spoiler or YouTube nonsense clip please? C'mon, be a man, keep yourself steady until GDC.

[Dihm]

Spoiler

Capellans eat babies. Proven fact.

[IxxxI]

I don't click spoilers on this forum since Paul's early trolling. That's a fail, Dihm.

[Dihm]

Not really, I met your requirement of posting a boring spoiler.

[Stone Profit]

Dude, Battletech was invented in the 80's. Liao is an amalgamation of Chines and Russian Communists, and other assorted "undesirables". is it any wonder the canon makes them the bad guys? Im fairly certain Liao was intended to be the ancient enemy of the "americanish" House Davion. Every story needs a protagonist, and a protagonist needs an antagonist (or two), even on an interstellar scale. So asking that question is a bit like "Why is the wicked witch in Wizard of Oz the bad guy?" cause thats the way the plot goes! XD

[Adridos]

Stone Profit, on 01 March 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Dude, Battletech was invented in the 80's. Liao is an amalgamation of Chines and Russian Communists, and other assorted "undesirables". is it any wonder the canon makes them the bad guys? Im fairly certain Liao was intended to be the ancient enemy of the "americanish" House Davion. Every story needs a protagonist, and a protagonist needs an antagonist (or two), even on an interstellar scale. So asking that question is a bit like "Why is the wicked witch in Wizard of Oz the bad guy?" cause thats the way the plot goes! XD

BUT because 80s are long gone now, you could treat Capellans with some respect, too.

[FireNova]

Adridos, on 01 March 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

BUT because 80s are long gone now, you could treat all underdog factions with some respect, too.

Slight fix, but otherwise in full agreement here.

[Dihm]

Adridos, on 01 March 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

BUT because 80s are long gone now, you could treat Capellans with some respect, too.

OUR time may have moved on, but you do realize that the game world, the story, is still identicle to what it was in the '80s. They didn't retcon everything out.

[Max OConnor]

Stone Profit, on 01 March 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Dude, Battletech was invented in the 80's. Liao is an amalgamation of Chines and Russian Communists, and other assorted "undesirables". is it any wonder the canon makes them the bad guys? Im fairly certain Liao was intended to be the ancient enemy of the "americanish" House Davion. Every story needs a protagonist, and a protagonist needs an antagonist (or two), even on an interstellar scale. So asking that question is a bit like "Why is the wicked witch in Wizard of Oz the bad guy?" cause thats the way the plot goes! XD

I can understand why the writers set the stage as they did because the time of the game development was certainly influenced by the politics of the writer's time. Just look at the current story lines with the Jihad and the events that are going on now. The issue is that all of the Houses are too complicated to paint with such a broad brush. If you actually read the original House Books you will see that the average Capellan is not that different from the average FWL member, or Davion. It is only the ruling families that paint the image of the House as a whole. Its just lazy simplistic writing to make all Capellans as sneaky, bad, etc and all Davions as good and forthright.

Just look at what Hanse Davion did to satisfy his ego, he started a war that killed billions all for personal gain and vengeance against one man. Look at what Hanse and Victor did with Thomas Marik's son, they substituted a double to fool him just to keep weapons flowing. Look at Katrina (Katherine) Steiner and her machinations, no house is without evil people and its just sad that the game is so biased towards one House over the others because that will not sit well with fans of other groups. We feel left out which is not good for sales.

It should be set up as this house has these mechs, these resources these pro's these con's and then the player can decide if they like those features and decide which house to join.

I must say that for those who have read the Dark Age novels, the new setting has Davion with a sociopath rapist murderer as the new First Prince and Aaron Sandoval rocks, he is a March Lord with style. I've never been a fan of house Davion but I must say I'd follow Aaron Sandoval in the Dark age time. Really good writing and no one group is painted as good or bad, they show both sides.
Aaron Sandoval doesn't pretend to be a good man, but he does have honor and a code of conduct you can relate to and you grow to really like him because he is honest about who and what he is.

I hope there will be more Dark Age stories soon because they are some of the best out of all the novels and I would know, I've read every one of them since the sword and the dagger.

[GI Journalist]

It sometimes seems like Michael Stackpole and the developers decided to portray the Capellan Confederation as a black hat faction. As time went by, they even removed the cultural elements that don't fit with our modern predjudices. I presume this was to make the faction appear more menacing. Now we're being told that the Capellan Confederation is no more Scottish than Idi Amin, when Scots had significant impact on Capellan culture. However, by the end of the Fourth Succession War it is suggested that not only the Scottish but also the Russian elements of Capellan culture have joined the FedCom. Preposterously, it is presumed the remainder of the Confederation must be culturally Chinese. This idea seems like Davion propaganda as their subjects frequently expressed predjudice against the Asian culture.

In my opinion, excising non-Chinese cultural influences had the overall effect of making the Capellan Confederation less interesting. While Loren Coleman showed how Sun-Tzu Liao ultimately capitalized on this situation with his nationalistic Xing Sheng movement, I feel cutting the culture off from its roots was a mistaken assumption. As of yet, there should be plenty of highlanders and cossacks found throughout Capellan space.

Like it or not, throughout the novels House Liao was portrayed as the villain of the novels and House Davion the heroes. Since many House Davion fans have accepted the novels at face value and imbued their faction with a superior moral quality, our arguments about which House is better have nothing to do with an objective comparison of cultures. That is to say, its not as if we are comparing Napoleonic France with Imperial China based on their individual flaws and merits. Instead its more like fans of Napoleon Bonaparte arguing that France is better than China because Napoleon was a better person than Emperor Kangxi.

The developers can demonize House Liao all they want. What's important to me is that the Capellans are a lot more interesting. Besides, I prefer to be considered the underdog in a fight.

[Thorn Hallis]

GI Journalist, on 01 March 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Instead its more like fans of Napoleon Bonaparte arguing that France is better than China because Napoleon was a better person than Emperor Kangxi.

At least both were at the same height I guess.

[Tsen Shang]

Thorn Hallis, on 01 March 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

At least both were at the same height I guess.

I sincerely hope this wasn't a reference to the (false) rumor that Napoleon was short, since it's been proven he was actually slightly above average height for the time period.

[Arnold Carns]

Hannes, on 04 February 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

I dont feel the "Anti-CC" of this post, just the anti Romano Liao.
We all know shes a crazy ....... ;D

Yup. if I had to choose between a personal meeting with Romano or a live grenade...
I'd choose grenade! Because it would be less ugly!

Edited by Arnold Carns, 01 March 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Tsen Shang, on 01 March 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I sincerely hope this wasn't a reference to the (false) rumor that Napoleon was short, since it's been proven he was actually slightly above average height for the time period.

Of course it was. And with me being a german and him being a french it stays that way.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 02 March 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Adridos, on 01 March 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

BUT because 80s are long gone now, you could treat Capellans with some respect, too.

I would say that the Capellans have a great storyline the ultimate underdogs. Im firmly Davion but have a soft spot for all the Great Houses. The way the Capellans have overcome adversity time and time again, sold out by their allies the FWL, stomped on by the Capellan March, the loss of St. Ives, nutzoid leaders, and just about all the bad stuff that can happen to an intersellar nation. Sun-Tzu brought House Liao back from the brink, used 2nd Star League troops to reclaim St. Ives with impunity, and later made alliances with the periphery nations of the Taurian Concordat and Magistracy of Canopus. So instead of feeling they are demonized, perhaps they are the "comeback kid" of Battletech, as Ive seen them taking charge of their own destiny time and again while "greater" nations have collapsed into anarchy and madness. Even in the Jihad and Dark Age, the Capellans are the only ones who follow themselves and reject going along for the greater good, perhaps because they have been so often on the losing end of the "common good". So I, for one, celebrate the strength in the face of adversity inherent in the Capellan people, and salute them as the most worthy of foes. Any slander I send their way is merely the tendency of a warrior to belittle his foes before battle to "prove" that he has might and right on his side.

[PewPew]

This thread contains some of the most intelligent discussion on this forum. I might consider signing up with the Capellans...

[IxxxI]

I've enjoyed that video today. IMO, it's very applicable to situation in BT universe, where all facts were mostly covered by "free Davient journalists". I know that specific persons will continue attempts to distort the facts, they can't accept others' right for our own way, poor asthmatic wolfies, they are just hungry to be heroes, all their blood rushed to stomach from brains, so they can't analyze the situation rationally, they are doomed to be boiled.

[Adridos]

Stone Profit, on 01 March 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

I would say that the Capellans have a great storyline the ultimate underdogs. Im firmly Davion but have a soft spot for all the Great Houses. The way the Capellans have overcome adversity time and time again, sold out by their allies the FWL, stomped on by the Capellan March, the loss of St. Ives, nutzoid leaders, and just about all the bad stuff that can happen to an intersellar nation. Sun-Tzu brought House Liao back from the brink, used 2nd Star League troops to reclaim St. Ives with impunity, and later made alliances with the periphery nations of the Taurian Concordat and Magistracy of Canopus. So instead of feeling they are demonized, perhaps they are the "comeback kid" of Battletech, as Ive seen them taking charge of their own destiny time and again while "greater" nations have collapsed into anarchy and madness. Even in the Jihad and Dark Age, the Capellans are the only ones who follow themselves and reject going along for the greater good, perhaps because they have been so often on the losing end of the "common good". So I, for one, celebrate the strength in the face of adversity inherent in the Capellan people, and salute them as the most worthy of foes. Any slander I send their way is merely the tendency of a warrior to belittle his foes before battle to "prove" that he has might and right on his side.

Finally, a worthy Davion. It will be an honor to fight you, Stone Profit.

Edited by Adridos, 02 March 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[alex kelll]

I don't like the Capellans because of the fiction and the fact that most of their leader are ether insane, idiots or tyrants. Also they tend to get their mech shot up pointlessly