593 replies to this topic

[Vexgrave Lars]

Dihm, on 05 April 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

There does need to be some sort of balancing factor for the added weight, the added risk of spectacular death, and the increased critical usage, this is true.

This is where I think you'll see advantage given to ballistics in the 'rock' they cause to an enemy mech when hit, spoiling their aim. That can be a pretty big advantage.

Also, a balanced heat scale will help too, since we know you can't just dump in unlimited numbers of heat sinks (if you have the tons) like you can in MW4. Heat sinks taking up limited critical slots will limit laser boating somewhat.

There is a balancing already, a slower mech, 1 less heat-sink, or a ton less armor.

Then add 1 ton of ammo.

I don't normally rules lawyer but when additional concessions are requested for concessions that already exist, I have to go with the rules lawyers.

The cost of a laser is lots of heat, for a light weight compact weapon that does medium damage. PPC's are the same. What we don't spend in ammo is spent in Heat-sinks, plus some just to stay cool. That's the balance.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 05 April 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Roaxis Stalomainis]

LackofCertainty, on 04 April 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I think that when you run out of ammo, the next trigger pull should summon a Carebear riding a unicorn to swoop down onto the battlefield and beam extra ammo into your mech with a Carebear Stare.




Honestly, I think pretty much every game that has ammo lets you run out of ammo, otherwise what's the point of it? Not to mention that mechwarrior is leaning toward the simmier (simer? more sim-y) side of combat. Not to mention that part of the balance of the weapons is that you can run out of ammo. (gauss rifle says hello)

I don't think running out of ammo is going to scare off anymore who wants to play MWO. If you want an ammo-less option, then pilot an awesome. (or any of the other laser-boat mechs)

Honestly, I like where you are coming from. However, I think that there should be massive restrictions placed on Field Repairs. If they are implemented they should take approx 1:30 minute(s) to reload to 50% ammo capacity, with variations on the reload time depending on the weapons. For example, a Gauss Rifle would take longer to reload per slug vs a mere few seconds per missile (with the exclusion of warheads). Also, I saw something regarding ammo costs being hire for on the field repairs. I will support this, however, I would like to see the prices be 60% to 85% higher than standard hangar prices. Also, there should only be 1 mobile field base allowed per Lance. Any major armor repairs above yellow levels should be repaired for a fee, the rest denied...

[Seabear]

Ammo depletion is a fact of life. I feel that one should be able to replenish if one can get to a field base or ammo supply truck. I can see some interesting combat ensuing from efforts to resupply or prevent resupply. Some of the greatest and most decisive battles in history have been brought about by one force seeking supplies while anothert seeks to prevent it. I imagine that such combat would be particularly intense. It should not be a given in any case but a possibility. The capture of enemy supply sites would make nice salvage additions.

[movingtarget]

would be nice if the commander could order a ammo truck or something, let mechs with hands reload faster while mechs without need to let the crane on the truck do the loading, limmit the truck to (4?) tons of ammo(any ammo) and the mech reloading cant move or shoot.

[Psydotek]

Peiper, on 04 April 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

This is absurd, Battletech-wise. Real battles (this is a simulation) aren't scheduled, nor are the lengths pre-determined. If you are worried about running out of ammo, plan for it!

Absurd? Hardly. Of course lengths shouldn't be predetermined. I'm talking about tuning via number of players. A 24v24 is going to last longer than a 4v4 match. However 24v24 may last soooo long that even with ammo conservation people will probably be running dry before even the halfway point (which will make ammo dependent 'mechs fairly undesirable). On the other hand, a 4v4 match may last so short that you may not even go through all your AC/20 rounds.

If playing an extended mission then i really hope there will be some way to reload otherwise everybody is going to be piloting energy weapon platforms (which could get kinda boring).

However it seems that 8v8 or 12v12 is the number thrown around most often and i'm guessing the developers will be playtesting and tuning before/during/after launch.

Edited by Psydotek, 05 April 2012 - 05:58 PM.

[SweetJackal]

I'm going to go a step farther. Not only should running out of ammo be a concern and possible without planning, but your speed should increase as your weight lessens due to firing off tonnes of ammo.

Edited by SuckyJack, 05 April 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Damocles]

If you don't want to run out of ammo, bring MORE ammo. Easy.

[Aegis Kleais]

For all we know, it might take tons and tons of extra ammo for LRMs to even help take down a single Mech. I understand the pro/con of an ammo-based weapon (and the need to have a fallback energy weapon), but I still feel that the ability to refit ammo once per game in tandem with the ability to assign more carried ammo in your loadout should be ample enough to help offset running dry down the line.

I'm not a fan of MFB's out in the field and feel you should have to pull back off the front lines and return to base in order to get your one and only refit of ammo. It would also take a respective amount of time depending on how much ammo was being refitted. If you interrupted the process, you would only be partially restocked and have lost the remaining ammo.

[wwiiogre]

That is how I would see it as well Aegis, but would like it available, if the player who wants a reload had already purchased the ammo and had to choose to put it in the base or cargo loader knowing he may not use it and it could be destroyed or stolen. For me, that makes it a better game.

chris

[Insidious Johnson]

http://www.youtube.c...k3Z-MVoUg4#t=4s
Combat reloads possible? Yes! Best possible solution? No!

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 05 April 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[Lycan]

Didn't read the thread so I'm probably going to repeat what some people have said. I would like to voice my opinion though.

That opinion is this. I voted for running out of ammo is a danger but if you can make it to a mobile field base, you should be able to resupply.

Now, that being said. I don't think that mobile field bases should be on every map and I also don't think that reloading should be an instant thing. You should have to wait a bit of time for the reload AND be a sitting duck while it's happening.

You shouldn't be able to just run up to the field base, tag it and then be instantly resupplied.

Going with an ammo dependent design should come with the risks of running out of said ammo. Just like a mech with energy weapons has to worry about heat management, an ammo dependent one should have to worry about ammo management.

[rolling thunder]

If a field station is available which is capable of reloading then we should be able to visit it ingame.The downsides are that the other side may find it & attack.The mech that is in the base will still be capable of providing a limited defence unless it was a 100% ammo carrying mech & it was totally out of ammo.A Mech like an Acher isn't really up to much if it's out of LRMs but it is still capable of giving a fight with the medium lasers.
Let's face it,if you take a Mech like an Archer into the field it's because your job is fire support.If you run out of ammo you are no longer capable of doing your job so it doesn't matter if you retire to a field base to reload regardless of how long it takes.A Catapult is still of use as a heavy scout mech because of its jump jets but it's still not going to want to get into a fight because of its limit weaponry.
Field reloads should be mission dependant & possibly only available to the defender?
I would like a Marauder as soon as they become available but i was reading that you can't swop out balistic weapons for energy weapons although that is one of the variants of the Marauder.I could live with out an AC5 as most of the Marauders weapons are energy based anyway but i would like the option of a reload in the field.

Edited by rolling thunder, 06 April 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[Titus Pullo XIII]

As long as we're treated to a beefy *CLACK-CLACK-CLACK* when our rounds have been depleted I'm happy.

[EDMW CSN]

GDL Irishwarrior, on 05 April 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I love autocannons in MW2... I've been playing Ghost Bear's Legacy on my old Windows 98 computer, and my Stone Rhino with a pair of LB 5X ACs is essentially a game breaker... Long as I have them (and their 6 tons of ammo each!) in the torso that is - my arm-mounted ER PPCs get blown off by the average light 'Mech in about 5 seconds . I tried Ultra ACs too, but they're just plain ridiculous - by the time I can react to the enemy's death and take my finger off the rigger, I've blown through half my ammo supply

If my Hunchback can kill 2 to 3 Awesomes in the span of 10 seconds, I am willing to suck up on the ammo consumption rates. strip all my weapons and pile on moar AC-20 ammo

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 06 April 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Iogsotot]

I think that field reloading is a part of any serious military operaton and should be included as a matter of course. I agree with much of what William P. was saying above in his post. This could really add additional depth and strategy to the game. Perhaps this could be associated as part of one's mech attributes as well, say faster reloading time that could be bought up to reflect some of the fluff text from the various tech readouts. You could have a default time that's a function of quantity (number of rounds) and damage (size/cost). You could load up hundreds of MG rounds in the time it takes a single salvo of LRM20. Maybe even make it weapon specific...i.e., I have a AC20 that has a highly customized reloader so it only takes 30 seconds for a full 20 round reload as opposed to the 1 minute (of game time) that it usually takes. Maybe even add the equivalent of a dragon (the ammo reloader in real life) that could be piloted...

Edited by Iogsotot, 06 April 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

Reloading of Ammo in combatzones is 1. very dangerous (a missguided missle into a depot, a shrapnell into a shell) 2. Not done in 2secounds. So its only reasonable when you can only reload out of combat zones (we can not leave the Map so its in the Mechlab) or when hot dropping with a different mech.

I don't like the desings MW:LL went to, where you can reload ammo in 2 seconds in a fieldbase, so everyone does 2-3 salvos and cowardly retreat into the safety of Towers to reload, until team bank guy give him money for an assault, attacking the other team who can only field Meds (for example)

Ammo based weapons allways have much more DMG then energy weapons (in single shot) so the "Jamming" aswell as running out of ammo is an Important detail of balance. Making fieldbases available onto the Map only destroys the balance of the played round and has an impact on the combat, which can compansate Bravery and skill, with simple retreat and attrition tactics.

my 2 cents

Edited by Andar89, 06 April 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[A6PackofToucans]

Thinking about the mission before engaging in combat on unfamiliar terrain is half the fun. Ammo dependent designs bring a lot of punch and lower heat generation, but when your out, that's the risk you take on the battlefield. Fighter jets have to return to base after all weapons are expended so should mechs that rely heavily on ballistics.

I guess there could be some missions where a resupply is possible, but to reload a mech is time consuming so I don't think it should be something readily available, and rare to have the luxury of.

[Dragorath]

I guess it should be possible to reload ammo, BUT this should be nearly sensless, because think about the time to reload a Mech. This should take quite some time. like 5 minutes. run back, reload and run to the front, altogehter 10-15 minutes maybe. The game will be over before you are back. And if it is field reload 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes.
So my opinion is nearly the first answer, but to forbid reloading would be not the solution.

[AlanEsh]

A6PackofToucans, on 06 April 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

... Fighter jets have to return to base after all weapons are expended so should mechs that rely heavily on ballistics.

Yeah a lot of fighter pilots are lobbying to have their F-18s refitted to energy weapons though, because running out of ammo can be really problematic.

[Jake Valeck]

Ian MacLeary, on 04 April 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

You go with an ammo-dependent design, you risk running out of ammo. (And this is coming from a prospective Commando pilot.) While I wouldn't object to a possibility for limited reloads, I think that should be restricted to a few scenarios rather than generally available.

If you're going to be running around shooting at anything that moves, go energy-heavy. If you're more thoughtful about when and where you fire your weapons, missiles and ballistics become much more attractive.

could not have said it better myself. well done