176 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Comassion, on 01 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Hey Krivvan! Was cool running into you that day - you're quite a good pilot, in my opinion, and your pug was one of the more challenging ones we faced - aside from a suicidal streak cat who just ran in and died, it turned into a cat and mouse game for awhile there, with lots of feints and skirmishing action.

After the match we surmised that you or someone else was probably communicating with the pugs to try and coordinate them - is that true? If so, let me say - it really makes a difference. Until your message about the pug stats some of us thought we were facing another premade, or at least a partial one.

Hmm, if I remember correctly all I did was give some rudimentary advice at the beginning and set a location for the pugs to group up at. Yeah, just a little piece of advice can sometimes turn pug games around, but I didn't communicate as much as I would have had I been in an Atlas. Rather hard to micromanage in a Jenner heh.

[RedHairDave]

Quote

Garth Erlam, on 30 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

We are taking steps to fix this (Phase 1 will be soon, in fact) but a lot of this is player perception. I play outside of groups 99% of the time, and in the last two weeks I've played against a grand total of two premades. Today I played 20 matches just to see; got zero.

It can be frustrating to lose like that, sure, but what people often forget is they're losing because they literally do zero group work. No-one uses C3, no-one even uses text chat. Then they get picked apart one by one. I managed to get a random group of guys to talk and we beat an actual premade (one of those two I faced) because a lot of the guys there were great players, they just needed a good leader.[color=#959595][/color][/color]


And no, I don't mean yelling at people who don't listen to you

Quote

32 games I seen atleast 10-12 premades.

From all atlas to all scout... It was nuts yesterday. I limited my games because it was getting ol

its all in your head, likely closer to 3-4 were premades, the rest rolled you with the power of the pug. once you are clear on that, i offer my assistance. the reason you are having trouble i dont know, i have never played with you, so any advice i give would be pointless, if you want, drop into 1st-rangers.com and i will help ya out. no scarasim. i pug and have none of the issues you do, in the same pool of players. i can and will help you if you want. if not, just stop blaming premades, its not premades killing you, its likely lack of team work or coordination.

Edited by RedHairDave, 01 November 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[MacLannan]

[quote name='"Academus"]Finally' date=' I'm looking forward to the official population and matching ratio figures. OP's data point to at least 25% of all matches having a premade. If premades are indeed present in 25% of all matches, but occupy a significantly smaller percentage of the total players base, that will comfirm to my theory that due to the fact that pugstomp matches finish faster than normal matches, premades will drop in twice more matches than pugs will in the equivalent time period, therefore having a disproportionate effect on the likeliness of pugostomp.[/quote']

Really? If pugstomp matches finish faster than normal matches, that also means that the PUGS get out faster too and back into the queue, and since most of the time the pugs DC before the end of the match anyway... but your logic is flawed. It's not _just_ the premade that gets out quicker, their opponent does too.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I keep trying to tell people that there are LOTS of premades. It's not a 1 out of every 10 games problem.

[Xantha]

Voodoo Circus, on 31 October 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

On another note I am 100% in favor of premade vs premade queue
I join a organized team to have a good fight and be tested, not to roll over players getting started

This is exactly what I posted in Beta Forums. We're getting just as much dissatisfaction about premade vs non-premades as the guys getting stomped. It's not fun for either side.

The only difference is, we're not screaming about it. I'd personally like to see a lot of other things in game than premade queues. Like a working UI that doesn't require clicking launch 5-6 times to actually launch. Lobby, guild/clan, Meta Game, more: maps, mechs, game modes, equipment, etc.

[Krivvan]

Bluten, on 01 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

I keep trying to tell people that there are LOTS of premades. It's not a 1 out of every 10 games problem.

It's closer to 1 out of 4 to 1 out of 7 depending on the time of day.

[Guido]

Krivvan, on 01 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Hmm, if I remember correctly all I did was give some rudimentary advice at the beginning and set a location for the pugs to group up at. Yeah, just a little piece of advice can sometimes turn pug games around, but I didn't communicate as much as I would have had I been in an Atlas. Rather hard to micromanage in a Jenner heh.

And that's the sad part and the problem. The standard expectations of pug games are so low because they don't do anything to help each other that any deviation from that creates a sense that this is a premade rather than a pug that cares about the fight and not the cash.

I take screenshots of every person I go against that suicides, disconnects, or rambo rushes, because they are definitely not joining my unit. They don't care enough to fight, I won't waste my unit's resources on them. Even our brand spanking new players survive most of their matches and rake in cbills, because they actually work with the team instead of against the team.

[Tekerton]

oh noes!! Gaming happened!!!!

Edited by Tekerton, 01 November 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[AceTimberwolf]

I've played 5 Pug Matches and lost 4 of Them. The rest I've been in Premade. My only death game from a server glitch 3v6. Yea it is hard to lose in a Premade we know this and we try to go out of our way to play as unconventional as possible. I am Always out on my own but i manage to survive. Not trying to brag but just looking at stats It tells you the other side of the story.

[Greyfyl]

RedHairDave, on 01 November 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

puggers just need to realise that its not premades causing the 8-0 losses for them, its their terrible play. no insult intended.

Insult taken tyvm. So if I pug I win about 33%, when I do pre-mades I win about 95%. But according to you I lose when I pug because I'm terrible, but my same terrible play doesn't make my pre-made lose.

I guess I'm getting carried in the pre-mades I've run.

[Elandyll]

To the OP. Looking at your screens I can tell you three things.

1) I can assure you that between being part of one, or facing one that didn't announce itself, you had at least 50-60% of your matches with premades one way or the other.

2) The correlation number of Founder Mechs / assumption of Pre Made is corroborated

3) The game seems to have a nasty habit to match pre-mades vs pugs instead of at least attempting to match pug v pug (although they happen on a semi regular basis, about 30-40% of the time in my experience) or pre-made v pre-made (almost never or very rarely it seems).
Thanks for contributing to prove this, along with the other forum user that posted the data on 26 matches.

[AceTimberwolf]

Greyfyl, on 01 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Insult taken tyvm. So if I pug I win about 33%, when I do pre-mades I win about 95%. But according to you I lose when I pug because I'm terrible, but my same terrible play doesn't make my pre-made lose.

I guess I'm getting carried in the pre-mades I've run.

I think he means just Pugs in General have a terrible play style. Not an individual per-se. Even In my matches as my team is getting slaughtered I'll still kill a few but there is only so much i can do on my own.

[Davion5150]

Lavrenti, on 31 October 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

The thing is that better communication is a force multiplier, independent of player skill. A PUG that can't use VOIP is likely to get stomped by a group that does, even if all the mechs and skill levels are the same. So skill isn't the only determining factor. Personally I think that the phases will be a day late and a dollar short, they won't completely fix the premade problem since it seems even a 4-man premade will wipe the floor with 8 randoms. Better VOIP and command tools might actually do more good than the phases.

I agree. Unfortunately PGI hasn't shown any intention to give in-game VOIP or better command tools.

[Squidhead Jax]

Greyfyl, on 01 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Insult taken tyvm. So if I pug I win about 33%, when I do pre-mades I win about 95%. But according to you I lose when I pug because I'm terrible, but my same terrible play doesn't make my pre-made lose.

I guess I'm getting carried in the pre-mades I've run.

While Dave's post was worded... bluntly, it's 100% correct in aggregate. The 'mech warfare skill of individual members of a PUG means nothing compared to the fraction of the group that plays stupid - either intentionally for farming, or just refuses to grasp the basic concepts of concentrating fire and not going off alone in the woods like a horror movie victim.

It would not surprise me if a group of 7 interested volunteers who've never touched a 'mech game before and 1 moderadely experienced leader showing them how to play the game could roll along with an impressive victory rate in the current state of the game. Not because the players on premades are inherently more skilled, but they're by definition all present and interested and trying. The typical PUG's problem is sabotage from within, and that's why a PUG that lucks out and gets few or no derp-Rambos, AFKers, or suiciders tends to roll their round like a premade.

An easier time joining ephemeral but self-selected groups (the typical state on the public TS servers, and a PUG by the definitions of many other games and their communities), along communications integrated outside the matches as well as in, would close most of the gap for the people who care to try.

[Kraven Kor]

Greyfyl, on 01 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Insult taken tyvm. So if I pug I win about 33%, when I do pre-mades I win about 95%. But according to you I lose when I pug because I'm terrible, but my same terrible play doesn't make my pre-made lose.

I guess I'm getting carried in the pre-mades I've run.

When pugging, my win / loss is under 50%, and my K/D ratio is likely 1/1 at best. Probably more like .75/1 or so.

When in a premade, my w/l is obviously pretty skewed, and k/d ratio is more like 2/1.

So, in my case, yeah - the premade is likely carrying me, at least often enough for it to be a factor in the equation.

I have my moments of being pretty darn good, if the comments from those spectating me or whatever are any indication.

Similarly, I have moments where someone is spectating me and I am ashamed that I have to speak to them on TS afterwards

[Beo Vulf]

Same thing happened at the beginning of closed BETA when everything was new and we were all trying to get a feel for the game. People with experience working in teams whether it was in a pug or premade win more often than those used to single player fps games. I know of WOW, and Warhammer online players that are playing and they know the value of teamwork. The veteran Mechwarrior players know the value of teamwork. However we are dealing right now with a lot of players many who have never played Mechwarrior before and do not understand the value of teamwork. This will (hopefully) change in the near future when they get tired of constantly getting owned by other players. Some of the newer players are rather young mentally, and/or physically as evidenced by their reactions when they get killed or loose a match. Hopefully they will learn, or quit either is exceptable.

[Hovertank]

Hey, that's me in #13. GG Kriwan. Good idea as well to track how many premades you run into. Too bad it's so hard to tell in most cases unless you get an affirmation from the other team.

I feel PGI really dropped the ball on the whole 8 man premade vs pug team even being possible. I could only imagine the howls of outrage if something like this was possible in other games, such as WoT. Having 1 organized team on comms against a team of random pugs. It would be a steamroll every single time with no exceptions, much like it is in MWO right now. Shameful really that this was even allowed to happen. I know of course that the matchmaker will soon be adjusted to prevent this, but it should never have gone to open beta in this state.

In addition, why is it so hard for PGI to throw an indicator on the TAB team screen to show who's in a premade? So many UI tweaks could happen in this game that would just transform it into something far more useful and satisfying...

[Cragger]

Unfortunately the evidence that Kraven Kor presents is not universal. He is in a light mech, a Raven. This moves the data in a more PuG then Premade bias because a light mech is the first mech a non founder player can aquire. Because of this when pugging you will find yourself against less premades because there is a larger pull of players to be matched against.

If Kraven Kor repeated the experiment using all weigh classes then averaged them you would have a true scientific experiment instead just a sliver that in his case supports his stance that premade teams aren't a problem.

I began to do so myself then ran into the problem that as far as I know MWO does not have a screenshot feature and anytime I hit printscreen I only get a black image and not a screenshot. I am assuming because I play in fullscreen and have two monitors.

[Ghogiel]

Cragger, on 01 November 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Unfortunately the evidence that Kraven Kor presents is not universal. He is in a light mech, a Raven. This moves the data in a more PuG then Premade bias because a light mech is the first mech a non founder player can aquire. Because of this when pugging you will find yourself against less premades because there is a larger pull of players to be matched against.

If Kraven Kor repeated the experiment using all weigh classes then averaged them you would have a true scientific experiment instead just a sliver that in his case supports his stance that premade teams aren't a problem.

I began to do so myself then ran into the problem that as far as I know MWO does not have a screenshot feature and anytime I hit printscreen I only get a black image and not a screenshot. I am assuming because I play in fullscreen and have two monitors.

It'll print screen from the mechbay but not in game for some reason. You need to get fraps. It's always worth having on imo...

[Aurias]

Slight correction, #13 was a premade of six, not five.

Ghogiel, on 01 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

It'll print screen from the mechbay but not in game for some reason. You need to get fraps. It's always worth having on imo...

Direct rendering vs windowed mode. Windowed mode you can just use prtscn, fullscreen you can't.

Edited by Aurias, 01 November 2012 - 10:11 AM.