310 replies to this topic

[WardenWolf]

Calm down about Garth's joking, guys - he has had a good little sense of humor like that as long as I've been on the forums. It was meant as funny, not insulting, I'm sure of it

Now with that said, I am just as upset about this as anyone. Lets put our best arguments out there for the Devs, and hopefully they will see, understand our concerns, and listen to our plea.

[hanitora]

I don't find it particularly funny at all.

[Vassago Rain]

WardenWolf, on 02 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Calm down about Garth's joking, guys - he has had a good little sense of humor like that as long as I've been on the forums. It was meant as funny, not insulting, I'm sure of it

Now with that said, I am just as upset about this as anyone. Lets put our best arguments out there for the Devs, and hopefully they will see, understand our concerns, and listen to our plea.

If it was a joke, it was a bad joke.
If he's a comedian, he has no sense of timing.
If he's implying that a community master is a game developer, he's deluded.

There was nothing funny about his 'joke,' and it follows the trend of similar 'jokes' from pressured 'developers' of the last generation.

[Squid von Torgar]

This has to be a joke right? Really? Post your builds that wont work with the nerfed DHS?

DO THE FREAKING MATHS>

What have you guys got against energy weapons? You want a neutral heat buid? run a gaussapualt, just let us do the same if we pay the freaking money.

[Tuhalu]

WardenWolf, on 02 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Calm down about Garth's joking, guys - he has had a good little sense of humor like that as long as I've been on the forums. It was meant as funny, not insulting, I'm sure of it

If he was joking, why does he wince when he sits down?

[hornet331]

So the whole story, pgi did no math, heatsinks actually got nerfed and they call it a day... yeah... why I am not surprised.

[Insidious Johnson]

I cannot be convinced that PGI will ever settle on 'final' stats for pretty much anything. Attempts at ongoing balance means "don't get comfortable in one build".

[Wolfways]

I'm currently trying to run a Cat-K3, which is a K2 with 20DHS's and PPC's changed to ERPPC's. (Oh, and i lost the MG's because they're worthless.)
With 20DHS's the mech can barely fire its linked PPC's three times before needing to cool. With ERPPC's it can fire twice before needing to cool.

I don't expect to keep up continuous firing, but the way they are now (ignoring that PPC's are broken atm) they are hardly worth using, and ERPPC's are out of the question.

Edited by Wolfways, 02 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Squidhead Jax]

TostitoBandito, on 02 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Any clan mech which comes with DHS stock and has lots of lasers. Good luck with that.

*scratches chin* Are there any that don't?
(for certain values of 'lots')

[Vassago Rain]

Squidhead Jax, on 02 November 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

*scratches chin* Are there any that don't?
(for certain values of 'lots')

There are some with laser sinks. Uhhhh, their commando and urbie? I don't know.
Probably not many, if any. SLDF refits, maybe.

[FerretGR]

Another build example for you:

Cicada CDA-2A, 5 ML, TAG, XL 300, endo steel:

Can squeeze in 37 SHS including engine HS with cuts elsewhere ideally, and can mount a maximum of 20 DHS including engine HS under the same conditions.

Under a 2.0 DHS implementation, this mech is only marginally better with DHS, with an equivalent 40 heat dissipation. Under a 1.4 DHS implementation, again, a paltry 28 equivalent heat dissipation, a drop of 25%. Not worth taking the DHS; the saved tons are not worth such a drastic drop in heat efficiency.

I, for one, would like to know which freakin' mechs YOU guys were testing that DHS, implemented correctly, made game-breakingly good, Brian. I've come up with a medium build and an assault build, both of which are only marginally improved by the proper implementation of double heat sinks, and are simply not viable under the 1.4 DHS implementation. I can't for the life of me imagine a mech that isn't the case for.

Edited by FerretGR, 02 November 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Vapor Trail]

I'd like to see that, and the math that dictates a 60% drop in the increase that DHS is supposed to provide is the right way to go.

I honestly think the math doesn't exist, and 1.4 was a number pulled out of the ether as a "starting place" for balance "testing"

Edited by Vapor Trail, 02 November 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[hanitora]

Personally I think DHS should just be removed. They are an useless money sink with new stats.

With old ones they were an useful money sink, but still a money sink.

[Media]

I have far too many different builds in mind to post. I've primarily been piloting a Jenner and Atlas lately, and will eventually settle on a 50 ton 'Mech of some kind soon.

With those three different tonnages in mind? I've found DHS at 1.4 will still be a decent upgrade for my 35 ton Jenner and 50 ton HBK/CN9 designs, as most of them are relatively low heat and rely primarily on engine heatsinks.

The majority of my Atlas builds will break even using SHS or DHS. So no reason to switch from SHS there for me. One ammo heavy Atlas build of mine will be viable with DHS where it is completely unviable using SHS.

And of course, with all of these DHS builds you lose the option of standing in water for more efficient cooling. So, overall for me I'll see a moderate benefit from DHS at 1.4 on all of my lighter 'Mechs. But most Atlas builds of mine would be slightly worse with DHS.

If the efficiency were 2.0 I would use DHS in almost every build I would consider. And heat concerns for my lighter 'Mechs would be completely non-existent unless I were to try some crazy high heat builds. I like 2.0 because that is what it's supposed to be, but I feel 2.0 would probably be too good under the current heat system.

Still, I think 1.4 is a little on the weak side. Ideally I'd like to see the heat system revamped completely, but under this system? 1.5 to 1.7 efficiency DHS would satisfy me. Right now I think they're a little too unattractive. Still decent, but I think they could be a little better without throwing balance off too much.

Just my opinion.

[Ansel]

FerretGR, on 02 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Another build example for you:

Cicada CDA-2A, 5 ML, TAG, XL 300, endo steel:

Can squeeze in 37 SHS including engine HS with cuts elsewhere ideally, and can mount a maximum of 20 DHS including engine HS under the same conditions.

Under a 2.0 DHS implementation, this mech is only marginally better with DHS, with an equivalent 40 heat dissipation. Under a 1.4 DHS implementation, again, a paltry 28 equivalent heat dissipation, a drop of 25%. Not worth taking the DHS; the saved tons are not worth such a drastic drop in heat efficiency.

I, for one, would like to know which freakin' mechs YOU guys were testing that DHS, implemented correctly, made game-breakingly good. I've come up with a medium build and an assault build, both of which are only marginally improved by the proper implementation of heat sinks. I can't for the life of me imagine a mech that isn't the case for.

Their example mech literaly dosn't exist.

Keep in mind they used the phrase "increasing DPS exponentially on certain types of mech loadouts".



That phrase dosn't mean what they think it means.

[Stimbles]

Caladan Nix, on 02 November 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Don't bite the hands that feed you.

Too bad many of us already fed that mouth...

[Elirion Dawn]

Centurion 9 A
AC-5
2 med pulse laser
3 ssrm-2
225 engine
ES
FF
10 DHS

would be my favorite on this chassis but is just plain to bad and overheating very fast

1.4 ratio would screw most setups with 1 to 3 ER PPC's or ER Large Lasers heat efficiency wise when running mechs in the 65-85 ton size!
Examples:
- AWS-9M has 20 DHS with 3 ER PPC -> with 1.4 efficiency this would only count as 28 heatsinks -> WAY to hot
- any WHM-7M like build on a Cataphract (2 ER PPC, SRM 6, 2 M-Laser, AMS, MG, 18 DHS)
- almost any Clan Mech to come (most of these run already quite hot on TT rules)

Sure... DHS would allow for more sustained punch on a mech, but if you want to tinker with the mech damage output, tinker with weapon RoF and not heat management, cos a twin Gauss setup will be even more effective than now and make any PPC build totally obsolete

Do you - the Developers - really think it was ever intended to have a twin AC 2 Build deliver more dps at FAR more range than a single AC 20 while adding less base weight to the mech? At least if OHM's Values are correct -> sticky guide this is already state of the game...

Ever thought ahead what will happen with Omni mech Setups similiar to the Kraken/Bane? 10 UAC/2 with a range covering almost the entire map, a RoF thats quite insane
- if you keep your actual AC RoF Settings and the UAC/2 would be inline with AC 2/AC/5 RoF compared to UAC/5 RoF it should fire around 3-4 times per second
- the mech would generate around 60-80 heat in this single second and overheat in the 1st second propably blowing it self up
- if the pilot had aimed right, he would have done 60-80 damage to his enemy in this time... keeping the actual aim and to hit, this would almost instantly melt away many mechs front armor

If you continue to deviate this way from the canon, please rename the game to "Giant Robots Online" and give me my money back!

If you want a game with *realistic* weapon stats you, should should consider using the Heavy Gear Franchise from Dream Pod 9....

[Vassago Rain]

Ansel, on 02 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Their example mech literaly dosn't exist.

Keep in mind they used the phrase "increasing DPS exponentially on certain types of mech loadouts".



That phrase dosn't mean what they think it means.

Telemetry data.

[Hatachi]

I'd like to play a stock standard awesome, the 8Q. Talk about a mech that was lost in translation.

[Farmer]

ANd to save PGI some time, you can buy it here.