310 replies to this topic

[idle crow]

I run 18 DHS on my 4P Hunchback. If the engine is currently 10 SHS + 8 DHS that be 26 SHS. 1.4x18=25.2

DHS need to be at least 1.6 or higher.

[Lefty Lucy]

Geaux Tiger, on 03 November 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Lucy, make the SRM6s --- SSRM2s (1 ton ammo), upgrade to DHS (17 or 18 total I believe), Endo, max armor (almost, like 4 pts shy), slap in a 260 std, and keep the 4x MLS. Runs a touch hot but is totally manageable.

With the spread on SRMs over 75m I find I actually get more damage out of the SSRMs with less hassle in aiming.

I like the raw damage the SRM6s do at close range. I use lasers to kill light mechs, and SRMs can knock the armor off an atlas CT or RT in a couple of well-placed point blank salvos.

[Rugarou]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I like the raw damage the SRM6s do at close range. I use lasers to kill light mechs, and SRMs can knock the armor off an atlas CT or RT in a couple of well-placed point blank salvos.

I oh know they can. Was just trying to give ya an alternative I found to be working well.

[Lefty Lucy]

Geaux Tiger, on 03 November 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

I oh know they can. Was just trying to give ya an alternative I found to be working well.

Yeah, the ML/SSRM2 build is what I've been using, but I'd like it if the ML/SRM6 build were actually able to be used, and without DHS it's really not.

[ollo]

So, my Swagback currently:

pre "fix": 8 EHS * 1 + 10 DHS * 2 = 28
post "fix": 18 DHS * 1.4 = 25.2

Your turn, Bryan!

[Selfish]

Lefty Lucy, on 03 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I like the raw damage the SRM6s do at close range. I use lasers to kill light mechs, and SRMs can knock the armor off an atlas CT or RT in a couple of well-placed point blank salvos.

A little fact for those unaware. SRM6s, on the SP at least, seem to converge at around the 135m mark, and separate to reconverge again at 270m. You can use it to target components at range if the situation arises--an added perk to the superior damage. They aren't just point blank weapons, though they work well at that range. I was going to upload a short clip of this in action, but youtube is down at the moment.

Edited by Selfish, 03 November 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[Arcturious]

The vast majority of comments fall into three camps - the "rules" lawyers who (relatively justified) want double heat sinks to operate at .2 HPS. The second are people who were really looking forward to making builds and are disappointed that they won't be able to. The last are the only ones who have a really 100% valid complaint - those who have a specific build that will now perform worse under the new method.

Regardless though, the double heat sinks as planned are still a bonus for the vast majority of players. They will also be tweaked over time.

While I fall into the second camp and am slightly disappointed in the decision, it's more the disappointment of someone who was told they could have cake and instead received a slice of bread. You can live on the slice of bread. It will do the job but it just doesn't taste as nice. I'll live and get over it.

I'm hoping that once the system is in and people are building mechs everyone starts realising that a little improvement is still an improvement and that in the scheme of things this isn't a dealbreaker. Most people are flexible enough to start working with the system and rather than think about what has become impossible, start planning for what this has made available - as it is still an increase in some ways, just not as great as it could have been.

For those in the third camp though, I do feel sorry. Hopefully you will find another build that you like and in a few more weeks there may even be a tweak that improves matters. This is part of the long balancing process any game goes through even after going live.

I still remember many of the changes made to games like world of Warcraft, EQ or Ultima Online. Some changes like in Star Wars Galaxies are enough to bring the game down. Others in hindsight turn out to be the only way it could have gone. I'm hoping this DHS change is one of the second ones.

[Adrienne Vorton]

to reach a 24 HS value, the gap between 2X and 1.4X is already huge
20 engine + 2 external (=6 critslots) (2 tons)
14 engine + 7 external (7X1.4=9.8) (=21 critslots) (7 tons)

to reach 30 or more, well...
20 engine + 10 external = 5 DHS (15 crits) (5 tons)
14eng. + 16 external = 11 1.4´s(15.4hs) (33 critslots) or 12 1.4´s (16.8hs) (36 crits) (11 tons/ 12 tons)

compared to SHS
24 = 10 + 14 (14 critslots 14tons)
30 = 10 + 20 (20 crit 20 tons)

all in all tonnage reduction seems okay, but critslots taken up are "WTF??" with 1.4X HS^^
so for 24 hs, its 7 more critslots for 7 tons spared (1 critslot for 1 ton^^)

with 30 hs, its 16 critslots for 8 tons spared (more towards 31hs value though, but 2 critslots for 1 ton)...

or 13 critslots for 9 tons spared, more toward 29hs value (and there you go, it´s 1.4 crits for 1 ton spared^^)
that´s a quick blabla math table taking somerough numbers, dunno if i took everything into consideration...

but any way, i am not sure if i like it or not...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 03 November 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[QuantumButler]

OR if they are going to completely ignore canon anyway and use the 1.4 heat sinking, make them 2 crits instead of 3 and call then Enhanced Heat sinks instead of Double Heatsinks.

Edited by QuantumButler, 03 November 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kunae, on 02 November 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Bryan has asked us to post our desired builds so that PGI can show us how they would benefit from the new 1.4 DHS's

#1

Stock Awesome 9M

How about the stock Awesome 8Q?

In the Table Top, it used single heat sinks.

If you were firing all 3 PPCs every turn and were running, you would gain 4 heat per turn, meaning that it would take you about 4 turns or 40 seconds until you had your first shutdown change (heat level 16, first shutdown chance at heat level 14).

I want him to recreate this mech in MW:O.

And if he still doesn't get it, he should create a Gaussapult or a Dual AC/10 K2 build and try what it does in MW:O and what it does in Battletech, and how they compare.


My god how long do we still need to point out that the weapons in this game are not balanced and are ruining stock mechs? Do I have to get a plane ticket to the US and work them through the math by hand?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 November 2012 - 03:27 AM.

[Nighthound]

I won't even bother posting my Jenner, Raven and Cicada Loadouts because they just recieved in tiny benefit from the DHS like they were (10 SHS in Engine + 1-3 DHS). I put up with that because it was still closed Beta when in used them and we were told "they will be fixed".

Now it is Open Beta no more resets, no more trying out stuff we are effectively at the Point where it counts. My Jenner, Raven and Cicada builds are all running extremely hot, I can manage that, but it hampers my ability to fight efficiently, and they should be so much better then they are. They again will only get a tiny upgrade.

My Problem is with the Assaults. I don't drive them too often, in fact I "only" use the Atlas and I prefer the Light Mechs. Puting Endo Steel (or Ferrro Fibrous) on an Assault is pretty close to impossible. So the DHS would have been the only Upgrade worthwhile for them. All my (as of now mostly theoretical) Atlas Builds use 18 or 19 DHS. Which would have been really helpfull if they were working right. They don't and as it stands right now the "they will get fixed" Part will only make it worse. We Germans have a word for what you are doing - verschlimmbessert - roughly translated it would be something like imworsenprovement.

You want a Build to see your Improvement at work? Try out the AWS-9M (was stated in the first Post) or the still to come AWS-9Q. Those Mechs will be a downgrade from the 3025 Versions not an upgrade like they should be.

And then there is the Price. At first I thought this has to be a mistake someone put a 0 to much in it. But after thinking about it I realized that for some if not most Mechs it would be a Price I was willing to pay. But now? No effin way will you get me to spend 1.5 Mill to "upgrade" one of my Mechs with this. In fact I want my 1.5 Mill back I already spent and the 5.9 Mill for my 350XL Engine which is now as good as worthless to me.

[Squidhead Jax]

Nevarie, on 03 November 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Their internal test team must be a tiny group of gauss/lrm/small laser boaters, that dident even try to make builds using multiple ER-PPC's, PPC's, or any flavoring of Large Lasers.

Can't say I'd be surprised...

Why did they even put the Awesome in?

[JudgeDeathCZ]

When we will be never able to use LLas,ERLLas,LPLas,PPC and ERPPC effectively why they are still ingame?

[Draco Argentum]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 November 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

My god how long do we still need to point out that the weapons in this game are not balanced and are ruining stock mechs? Do I have to get a plane ticket to the US and work them through the math by hand?

I assumed you were a yank. Not that it matters, you'll have to fly to Canada if you want to get the crayons out in person.

[Vassago Rain]

Arcturious, on 03 November 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

The vast majority of comments fall into three camps - the "rules" lawyers who (relatively justified) want double heat sinks to operate at .2 HPS. The second are people who were really looking forward to making builds and are disappointed that they won't be able to. The last are the only ones who have a really 100% valid complaint - those who have a specific build that will now perform worse under the new method.

Regardless though, the double heat sinks as planned are still a bonus for the vast majority of players. They will also be tweaked over time.

While I fall into the second camp and am slightly disappointed in the decision, it's more the disappointment of someone who was told they could have cake and instead received a slice of bread. You can live on the slice of bread. It will do the job but it just doesn't taste as nice. I'll live and get over it.

I'm hoping that once the system is in and people are building mechs everyone starts realising that a little improvement is still an improvement and that in the scheme of things this isn't a dealbreaker. Most people are flexible enough to start working with the system and rather than think about what has become impossible, start planning for what this has made available - as it is still an increase in some ways, just not as great as it could have been.

For those in the third camp though, I do feel sorry. Hopefully you will find another build that you like and in a few more weeks there may even be a tweak that improves matters. This is part of the long balancing process any game goes through even after going live.

I still remember many of the changes made to games like world of Warcraft, EQ or Ultima Online. Some changes like in Star Wars Galaxies are enough to bring the game down. Others in hindsight turn out to be the only way it could have gone. I'm hoping this DHS change is one of the second ones.

So they'll start it at 1.4...and then double it?

What is this? Diablo 3? That's what killed that game, too. Do it right the first time. It's not hard to make an item that's like another item, except it's twice as good.

[lizardmech]

This is extremely annoying, I made 3 or 4 atlas builds with energy weapons that were atleast somewhat viable with the broken DHS, now not only are they not getting fixed they are getting nerfed beyond their current state. Why does the game have to punish me for not running gauss or streak catapults at every opportunity? Existing balance issues have been ignored because you can theoretically build them in TT but now DHS are being premptively rebalanced without testing while also ignoring TT rules? If they are going to be more flexible in adapting battletech stats for balance they should prioritize established things that are causing larger balance issues.

[Lyteros]

With the heat so utterly broken even the DHS get nerfed now...? Was it not enough that we had several dozen heat-is-broken threads with maths, calculations, charts, and enough evidence to build a house from the printed posts?

I suggest we strap all the devs to one of the stock awesomes with three normal ppcs and run around on shutdown vally while alphastriking the whole time. Of course with a toothpick locking the "override" key in place. While we do that, we put gausscats and LRM spam against them, so they can see their "balancing".
If it does not help, roll out the erppc variant.
(SCNR, forgive me if you can)

back to futile constructive tries:

1. DHS dont solve the "high heat" problem at all, the larger mechs cant effectively fit them in numbers. They also dont change the vastly inefficienter high heat weapons heatsink requirement.
2. DHS with 1.4 (but for 3 slots) help in such a minor margin that its a joke to pay the refit cost. From the size they dont fit into legs. The moment a cup of water is available to put the mech foot into, the two fittable single heatsinks in each leg will pretty much outperform the whole 0,4 bonus of all DHS on a mech. (Dont know the exact number here, in the TT its 1 heat per leg heatsink, giving you a total bonus of 4 => accounting for the bonus of TEN DHS with the current 0,4 bonus here)
3. The statment on "heat fixed for some weapons" will create even more heat on some weapons then before. So even more gimped energy weapons to enjoy.

Edited by Lyteros, 03 November 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 03 November 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

When we will be never able to use LLas,ERLLas,LPLas,PPC and ERPPC effectively why they are still ingame?

Because it's so you can imagine you're using them.

[MustrumRidcully]

Squidhead Jax, on 03 November 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

Can't say I'd be surprised...

Why did they even put the Awesome in?

For the LRM variants perhaps?

[heimloss]

Garth Erlam, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Man, I can't wait to see your game

Clever. If you'll kindly recall, "we"- the fans- were making a game called Mechwarrior: Living Legends. Ever heard of it? There's a rumor floating around that your company slapped them with a C&D. Thanks a bunch for that, by the way.