769 replies to this topic

[Mithos]

At least, there is no urgent need to tweak them before ECM implementation.

[Tokra]

Disbelief, on 09 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

Both are no arguments. They are facts.

i never said these are arguments. I listed pro and cons of them. So yes, i listed facts.

And LRMs are easy mode. You dont have to aim at all. Wait for the red marker and hit the fire. All other is in the hands of the spoter, and not yours.
All you have to do is to accept that this bonus you have (easy mode) come with a drawback (less and random damage).
You cant have both (as it was before the hotfix). Insane high damage with easy mode fire and aim.

I like the LRMs as they are. They are somewhat unique in their way. But like every weapon is need to have some cons and not only pros.

[devast8ndiscodave]

Long Draw, on 09 November 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Chewie, grow a brain. Not everyone wants to be a brawler, which is why we chose to go LRM. And if you had half a clue about true LRM boating, you'd know that it takes a lot more skill than press R and click away.

Really now? So what magical kungfu ways do you know that does not involve this? Because as I see it, you find a good spot and press R and left click all day long. So enlighten us to your ways sifu.

Edited by devast8ndiscodave, 09 November 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[chewie]

Long Draw, on 09 November 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Chewie, grow a brain. Not everyone wants to be a brawler, which is why we chose to go LRM. And if you had half a clue about true LRM boating, you'd know that it takes a lot more skill than press R and click away.

Come again? Resulting to being insulting because you have nothing better to add in a rational way?

The only skill in LRM boating is exactly this. Before they went open beta, I was quite happy to along with my team mates, to just rain LRMs from 3 or 4 mechs while someone got close and finished em off.

Skill? Find a spot where you can lob LRM's over a minimal terrain that will still give you cover at a moments notice.

Wait for a target to get spotted, select R, aim, get lock, fire. Keep firing while lock remains. If they have tag on them, even better.

Not asking for everyone to *just be a brawler* as you seem to think.

Just wish folks would ease up on the missile spam because it is SO EASY to do.

A good all round player is what's needed. Fine, you learned the Support role. Now learn to Scout, to be a Harasser, to be a Brawler. Use all the mechs you have available to you.

[Disbelief]

Tokra, on 09 November 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

First part was catched with: no weapon for no brainers.
If i fire my laser in the hill i cant damage the person behind it as well. But this does not mean the laser work wrong, it mean i am to stupid.

Being to far away from the team is not the fault of the LRMs. Its the fault of you.

And the higher cost of the Artemis missiles is, as i said, a bit to high as well. But still, if you dont want repair cost, take lasers. You pay for the high damage with relativ low heat with the ammo.

The LRMs dont move that hill out of the way, too. So you have still to think while using them. Theres the terrain, buildings, spotters changing or losing the target. Wheres the noob/easy mode now? You could also say hitscan is easy mode but you don't. Its a different kind of weapon. You have to aim with all. Even with LRMs. ;-)

So you got two choices:
Hitscan: You have to aim but you damage where you aim.
Lock on: You dont have to aim that much but damage gets spread across the target.


Yeah staying too far away is your fault. But then you can't stay comfortable behind your team like you wrote as a pro to LRMs. And beeing the last in the line doesnt mean no one fires at you. There are enough lights searching for lone wolfs.

You could leave out the LRMs completely in favor of Laser weapons but thats not the topic.


btw: Please pay attention. Those part with the arguments was not directed at you. Sorry if you got that wrong.

Edit: Be sure to not get me wrong: I dont want LRMs to kill everything. It should be a viable choice in a weapon mix.

Edited by Disbelief, 09 November 2012 - 05:44 AM.

[G4M3R]

LRMs are good right now (pre-ECM). The game is way more enjoyable with a good balance of "role warfare" as the devs like to call it. I see no reason to change it. LRMs are still dangerous. Just means that when LRM boating you have to bring some defenders with you to orbit. I mean that's tactics right? There shouldn't be a build that trumps the battlefield. LRM boats were that build - now it's taken away and rebalanced. LRMs are back as a fire for effect, support, suppression role.

What's wrong with that?

[Justy Ueki Tylor]

ok i did another lrm cat run .. i had around 150ms and targeted only one player higher ms than me and one 50 ms lower than me .. the higher one got massive amount of dmg ..... so around 3-5% at the ememy k2 each volley .. the 50 ms faster one was an hunchback .... when i attacked him he was at 66% i scored at least 5 villeys at him bringing him down to only 65% (while all pars are flickering all of the time ) so i thing its realy something about the connection speed ( with my med lasers it was easy to rip his parts off but not with the missiles )

Edited by Justy Ueki Tylor, 09 November 2012 - 05:59 AM.

[Xenroth]

Yeah but only in premade games, because in public games no fast mechs care about them ... and as heavy or assault you just get ripped of because you cant dodge them well

[Drexorn]

I primarily play light mechs, and am usually the recipient of LRMs. Right now I think LRMs are vastly underpowered. I have no fear in a jenner of LRMs now, even when tagged. I just run around freely on the map at full speed w/an AMS. If some LRMs do manage to hit me, they don't do much damage. I haven't been killed by an LRM since the hotfix.

I tried jumping in a catapult w/dual LRM15's & artemis - and wow. I unloaded 8 full volleys (240 missiles) on an atlas D w/single AMS, and barely turned his armor yellow :/

They need to find a happy medium w/the LRM damage.

Edited by Drexorn, 09 November 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Melcyna]

And how do we know that?

how do we know for that matter that the percentage is just the sum of armor plus IS?
what about the weapon health? the equipment health? are they counted in the percentage total?

Does the percentage consider each point of torso IS the same weight when calculating the percentage? The head? The torso armor?

Does the percentage consider each point of armor and each point of IS as the same weight? or does it weigh IS more than armor? Do we know if they are calculated evenly?

Unless we know exactly how the percentage is derived we have ZERO CLUE on how the damage that was applied to them resulted in the percentage shift.

ed:--------------------------------------------

Let's say that the percentage total is a simple addition of ALL the health points, this includes armor, IS, equipment, weapon, engine.

let's say each single health point they have is worth the exact same.

Then in such case the percentage will drop much slower at the start (when the armor is the only one impacted) and drop FAR MORE RAPIDLY once breached because damage from then on will cause critical on internals and equipment as well. So does the percentage actually just consider all their health points equally in that manner?

Edited by Melcyna, 09 November 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[G4M3R]

This is the happy medium ~1.4. Would you rather it be like the TT where 1 missle = 1 dmg?

[EmptySkull]

G4M3R, on 09 November 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

This is the happy medium ~1.4. Would you rather it be like the TT where 1 missle = 1 dmg?

If you want to bring up TT then actually due to dbl armor 2.0/missle damge is equal to 1.0 TT. As of right now, missle do 0.85/missle damage compared to TT.

Edited by EmptySkull, 09 November 2012 - 06:15 AM.

[EmptySkull]

Mithos, on 09 November 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

At least, there is no urgent need to tweak them before ECM implementation.

Right they are good until ecm comes out. I hope there is a reevaluation of the damage then.

[Taiji]

Yep, seeing this plenty myself.

Like just now I almost managed to convince myself that this enemy dragon had all his armor on his back, but then I stopped being stupid, heh.

BTW it's always been bad vs fast moving lights - in terms of seeing hits happening but doing no damage - but now it seemingly happens vs anything at any time.

I've been using an 8R with artemis and 4 srm6.

Really struggling to fight in it now I know the missiles might not do anything.

Edited by Taiji, 09 November 2012 - 06:39 AM.

[Waladil]

I had a thread up about this before. (But I don't mind you putting one up because it increases the chance that it gets fixed)
For me and the other people who reported it the bug is specific to the Dragon, where it can't be harmed by SRMs (or possibly just Streak SRMs) at certain angles (mostly directly ahead).

Has anyone seen it on a 'Mech OTHER than a Dragon?

[Lanessar]

While they might use a slight tweak upward, LRMs are currently doing their job. Playing several matches with a Jenner this morning, LRMs softened me up, and if I stayed out of cover too long (3-4 salvos) they took chunks off of me.

From my standpoint as an LRM-boat, this is what I want to be able to do to an opponent. This is the effect that I want. Topping damage charts and kill charts isn't what the LRM support is for; softening up opponents at range, allowing the brawlers to finish the job (unless there's a real tard just standing out of cover).

They do that now. Really, really well. Artemis equipped mechs can really do a good job, better than standard LRMs, due to tight grouping. I think the ammo costs could use a severe nerf (downwards) as they are just astronomical in proportion to the effectiveness.

Now, if a specific player is having issues with being a good LRM support mech, that's another matter. It's not a point and click affair anymore, and I agree with this. A good LRM boat seeks cover, changes positions to throw off Jenners like me, and position themselves properly to have coverage in case a harasser closes with them. It takes skill, and I respect LRM boats with skill.

Those who don't have skill and expect to be standing on top of a hill lobbing rockets non-stop without a Jenner showing up to hand them a can of boomstick - well, I call those "Jenner fodder".

[chewie]

EmptySkull, on 09 November 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

If you want to bring up TT then actually due to dbl armor 2.0/missle damge is equal to 1.0 TT. As of right now, missle do 0.85/missle damage compared to TT.

In that case, double up on all other weapons other than missiles.
Make AC20 do 40 damage, the gauss to do 30 damage.......because they are actually understrength in game right now, by 50%

Its not about making it TT, its about getting the balance right. LRM's were (and still are) OP because you were seeing so many of them. All the time, 3 to 4 mech's lobbing up to 30+ LRM's each. Whether it was as 6 LRM5's being chain fired for a continuous stream, or 3 LRM15's being chained.

They doubled the armour because people would die real quick with TT values for weapons and armour. And that made for very short games. But hey, in TT, someone rolls lucky with his Gauss, gets a crit hit on the pilot, mech effectively dead. Without ripping away all his armour first.....thats the way it was designed to happen.

So armour got buffed.

They then realised that LRMs, because they don't all hit the same target, weren't strong enough, so they doubled up too. and the same for SRM's of any type.

Now lasers and AC's were doing just fine, so no need to buff them. They hit hard where they hit every time. So no need to do anything to them. The double armour with those stock TT values for weapons made you last longer in battle. Good for everyone......almost.

Then people realised just how effective the double damage rate LRM's and (more than double) SRM's were, so they started getting as many on as they could, without compromising their mechs armour or speed (well, not too much).

But, as they tweaked the coding to make more of them hit (even when running), they realised that the LRM's were now making it stupidly easy to deal massive amounts of damage, with little need for input from the player using them. And TAG, NARC and Artemis made that even worse (or better from the perspective of the guy launching the salvo)
So they reduced the damage a little bit. And .3 is a little bit in the scheme of things.

Someone commented on how little his Jenner is being hit by LRM's and how little damage he's taking.

That's not because the LRM's are underpowered (speed wise), its because they move too slow. Way too slow. Especially if your moving perpendicularly to the direction they are coming from, you can keep ahead of some of them. Not all, but some.

You used to see it all the time. A Jenner doing 140kph+, out running LRM's because they are so slow when moving across the battlefield. Even HBK's did it for a while. So they tweaked engines to get round that particular exploit/bug.
And everyone suffered in a way then. No more 360xl + engined Atlas's storming the tunnel on frozen city like a bunch of Cats/HBK's because they were faster than most would expect em to be.
Shame that, used to love doing that. Nearly always took people by surprise with 4 x 65kph Atlas's in yer base before you knew it.

So now the LRM's are almost perfect for damage, but they just need to make them move faster to get over people out running them. Then we'll hear people scream because the LRM's are OP again (but that will be those on the receiving end of em instead of those firing them)

Cost wise, well, if you want to use em, expect a big bill when your done with the match.

GJ PGI, keep at it.

[Arisaema]

Played a number of games with 3 LRM boats and a scout. With each having at least 1000 missiles to launch, collectively we were unable to down mechs. As well, I went bingo on ammo multiple times. This is with a scout who knows his job very well and is able to keep lock on a mech. PGI did something wrong here and really nerfed LRM's into oblivion.

[XtremeLord]

here's what happen

45Missile x 1,7 DMG = 76,5 DMG

lets say 50% of your missile miss = 27Missile x 1,7 DMG = 45,9 DMG

and here the big bonus 4 u = 50% error hitbox detection after the patch = 13 Missile x 1,7 DMG = 22 DMG

enjoy

[Disbelief]

Honestly I liked how the missiles went right up in the sky and rained down on the enemy mechs. And yes I was on the receiving and, too. It's the arc that annoyes me the most. Not because I'm a noob and can't think about hills and buildings. Because the guided missiles are just dumb. They fly right into the ground or any obstacle.

For a short time I was very happy. Don't misunderstand me. The most fun came from the accurate flying. Up in the sky and down on the target. This is how it should be(maybe not from a balancing standpoint!). Ofcourse it was fun to crush enemies, too. But at that point you knew they would nerf it. Thats alright. I have seen a Catapult (SSRM ;D) going down from some Med Lasers and LRM fire in 2-5 seconds! Thats too much.

The flying arc is what I miss. Maybe that could be reintroduced and nerfed.

There could be more missiles destroyed through AMS or a lesser chance that they hit moving targets. It would be better for bigger targets and no all around weapon. With the high arc there is also a longer time to dodge them as they take more time to hit the target.

Edited by Disbelief, 09 November 2012 - 07:41 AM.