769 replies to this topic

[superbob]

I can confirm the LRM nerf appers to be more severe then intended. While the figure in client files says 1.7, there's no way LRMs can be doing that damage.

Also, the trajectory was changed from crazy efficient to ********. I actually liked how indirect fire LRMs went up so they didn't crash into terrain, what I didn't like was how they went straight down on enemy mechs after that.

In short, it seems devs overshot their goal... Again. Also either LRM damage is again missing in battle statistics or missile accuracy was significantly reduced. In one match I fired 700LRMs, destroyed components and got kill assists while doing only 50dmg. The damage might've come from lasers which I also used in that fight.

[BellatorMonk]

What is the argument here? According to game files LRMS are 1.7 dmg per missile and SRMs are 2.5 dmg per missile. Each missile has to hit of course to see that awesome LRM 20 **** people up..but we all know the spreads have been changed, arcs, etc.
So it is unlikely all 20 missiles are going to hit that target unless it is completely stationary, in the open and has no AMS.

[TheSteelRhino]

A little education appears to be in order.

Maybe we need to take a minute and understand how Artemis works. Artemis is a Line of Site LASER designator with upgraded missiles able to be guided via microwave transmission from launching vehicle. In short, no Line of site then artemis doesn't help..unless you have a friendly unti with TAG that is designating for you.

As far as damage reduction goes. LRM 20's in BT/TT do 20 damage, LRM15 does 15 (1 pt per missile). So..in the game balance they were previously doing 2 I think? Considering that other weapons are doing canon damage vaules or close to it, (although some have substantially higher heat) . This is NOT unreasonable to lower LRM damage to be in line with everything else. (And before someone bring it up, in TT/BT an SRM 6 does 2 damage per missile..in MWO they only do 2.5 per missile).

So LRM damage has been dialed up 40-70% over original values...that's IN it's current state! SRM's are only dialed up 25%.

Gauss rifles are canon values
IS ERPPC are canon values
IS sm, med, med pulse are all canon values, but with dialed up HEAT (they are hotter)
IS LG pulse, large, er large are improved from 8 dmg to 9 with slightly lower heat. (that's a 12.5% damage increase, granted the heat is improved..but still)

I don't feel like going into ballistics but you get the point. You want to talk to Nerf vs OP? I'd have to say LRM's were the most Overpowered (not overpowering) weapons in the game.

Here is details on Artemis and TAG....
According to BT canon sources referenced on Sarna:

Artemis IV Fire Control System is a guidance system that utilizes an infrared laser designator and tight-beam microwave transmitter which improves the accuracy of LRMs, SRMs, and MMLs by roughly thirty-five percent

and TAG

Target Acquisition Gear is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. The system was first introduced by the Terran Hegemony in 2600, but it became Lostech during the Succession Wars until it was recovered by the Federated Suns in 3033.^[1] TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or Semi-Guided LRM munitions.

[BellatorMonk]

Ammo cost is in line for such an easy win button. Damage is fine. Once ECM comes out I don't see why anything would need to be changed.
What people are seeing is a pretty hefty change in the missile spread (and of course that insane 90 degree arc), hence the perception of damage reduction.

[warp103]

BellatorMonk, on 09 November 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

What is the argument here? According to game files LRMS are 1.7 dmg per missile and SRMs are 2.5 dmg per missile. Each missile has to hit of course to see that awesome LRM 20 **** people up..but we all know the spreads have been changed, arcs, etc.
So it is unlikely all 20 missiles are going to hit that target unless it is completely stationary, in the open and has no AMS.

tru but that means that if we go by you only 3 or 4 of 20 missile fired hit. If that the case the us navy or any arm force would never shot it would not be cost effiective. Same in the game if i am firing 40 missiles at a shut down mech and only 8 hit then there is a issue with the targeting computer.And i have Artemis so.....

[Revorn]

Atm i have impression, that no one takes LRM longer as something serious.

I guess, its because they do a little to low damage. 300 dmgscore after having a good game, seems not realy much for 2 LRM 15. I can fire the entry Game, without or rarley being attacked.

This may be an indicator for balancing issues.

[BellatorMonk]

So how would the game be ignoring hard coded values? The perception of less damage has to be that the spread is so large now that targets are not being hit by the full salvos.

Without actual armor values being displayed on the paperdolls how does anyone know what is or isn't really being done?

[Arcadian Xero]

HC Harlequin, on 08 November 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

If I had any form of accurate damage tracking tools besides target effects and raw percentage I would be willing to bet that the "1.4 damage" is actually 1.4 damage per missile slot per 10 seconds. So if you can fire an LRM 15 at whatever it is, 3.5 seconds or 4 seconds or whatever, then they are computing the 1.4 damage across how many missiles can be fired in 10 seconds. That would make the current damage more accurate to 1.4 damage. Bear in mind that if you use the TT rules for LRM as a comparison then the LRM 15 hits with slightly less missiles across the spread as the LRM 20, but only if you roll a 2,3 or 4. Which on a 2d6 bell curve is quite rare.

This thought process kinda makes sense because they also upped the number of rounds per ton for LRM because they are fired more than once every 10 seconds.

Your whole arguement is flawed. The percentage of damage shown on an enemy mech encompasses a lot more than "hit points."

There have been numerous occasions where one of my team mates will ask me why I am so damaged and I would be confused. THey would tell me my percentage was at ~70% but based on the damage readings on my screen I was fine.

Same thing has happened where I would consider myself horrible damaged and my percentage would never be below 80.

Trust me, LRMs are doing plenty of damage. I run a founders Cat with 2 Artemis LRM15's and I also run a brawling Atlas, and a Jenner. I experience all sides of the fight equally and I can tell you getting pounded on by LRMs is NOT fun, and pouring out that much firepower IS fun.

Since the last hotfix patch, they increased the spread on Artemis missiles, as well as firing arc. That could account for the damage being less than you would expect. It also means you aren't headshotting everyone.

The damage on them is fine, and I have managed to supress entire teams with my Catapult just fine.

[Lufos]

yeah, the game is very fun atm. performance decreased after the last patch, but thats a different story. LRMs especially with artemis mean something. they are not the uba killing beasts they used to be. now they are support weapons as they should have been from the start. heavy LRM fire still heavily damages you and you have to take cover etc. finally this game is about brawling and player skills. let the LRM fanboys cry. :-)

shaking would be nice, tho.

[BellatorMonk]

Here is thing right? So LRMs have a dmg of 1.7 and radius of 4 (hit spread). By comparison SRMs are a radius of 3.5 and SSRM radius 3.5 also now.

Oddly the Artemis stats say nothing about tighter radius (small hit concentration). What it says to me is dmg type=1.6 internal
which would seem to say Artemis bypasses armor and/or only does 1.6 dmg anyways armor or not.


-<Weapon name="LRM20" id="1002"> <Loc iconTag="3" descTag="@LRM20_desc" nameTag="@LRM20"/> <WeaponStats speed="100" volleydelay="0.5" lifetime="15.0" duration="0.0" tons="10" maxRange="1000.0" longRange="1000.0" minRange="180" ammoPerShot="20" ammoType="LRMAmmo" cooldown="4.75" heat="6.0" impulse="0.8" heatdamage="0" damage="1.7" numFiring="20" projectileclass="javelin" type="2" slots="5" Health="10" artemisAmmoType="LRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size_per_index="0.005" formation_size="0.1" formation_speed="2.5" UseTAG="1" hitpoints="1.0" radius="4.0" trackingstrength="2.0" uselock="1" maxheight="150" minheight="20" peaktime="-0.333" peakdist="0.6"/>

-<AmmoType name="LRMAmmoArtemis" id="2030"> <Loc iconTag="12" descTag="@LRMAmmoArtemis_desc" nameTag="@LRMAmmoArtemis"/> <AmmoTypeStats type="LRMAmmoArtemis" health="10" shotsPerTon="180" internalDamage="1.6"/> -<EffectList> <Effect name="AmmoExplosionEffect" asset="fx" float="10.0" num="40" strength="1.0" max="1.6" min="0.1" time="5.0" asset2="mech_effects.damage.ammo_warhead_explosion"/> <Effect name="CASEEffect" asset="case" asset2="mech_effects.damage.ammo_case_explosion"/> <Effect name="FinalEffect" asset="fx" asset2="mech_effects.damage.ammo_warhead_explosion_end"/>

[Mr Steik]

I still think with the fixed spread and no more right angles the damage got nerfed a little too much, going from the incredibly OP 1000+ damage a match to 300-400. Imho they should be 1.8 maybe 1.9 at the very most.

[Revorn]

Meant as a feadback, i wanted only to share my impressions.


But oki, its all about brawling and "Playerskill" i forgot.

[Hexcaliber]

EmptySkull, on 09 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Right they are good until ecm comes out. I hope there is a reevaluation of the damage then.

LRM already have the highest possible alpha and dpm in lrm 20, and given the heat and fitting reqs, do not need any re evaluation, its already the easiest weapon platform to play.

Once ECM gets here they should be about right, requiring skilled scouts to tag and narc targets for lrm boats to score well. Its about risk V reward, most LRM boats are not at risk unless defense completely collapses, and then you have already lost.

Expecting to sit at the back, out of direct line of sight, and dealing the highest dmg away from harm is taking the ****, the skill should come from proper communication with your scouts to select the correct targets, and your keeping the scouts alive while they ping targets for you. If you try to take on targets without scouts you should have little chance to score well, it's called balance.

[Voodoo Circus]

+1
excelent patch

[warp103]

Thontor, on 09 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

That value for internal damage represents how much damage it does to your internal structure when the ammo explodes... Interesting that its 0.1 less than what the damage per missile is supposed to be.

wait so you mean that adding the Artemis made it .1 worst.?? I wonder what adding the fastfire and pinpoint did. hang head down

[Malidinus]

It would seem that missile boats are still the bringers of armageddon. The missiles are far too good at hitting their targets and the damage is just massive. Will probably switch to missile boats myself as that seems to be the only way to go. Although small and fast mechs combined with lag seem to be pretty darn hard to destroy too - warping all over the place.

[WarMonkey14]

Crazycajun, on 08 November 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

i like how warmonkey is liken every post on everythread that is downing or calling for nerfs on lrms...

do u really dispise haven to actually think and work to stay alive against any weapon in game?
u have a bias prejudice against long range weapons because u don't like dieing to something u cant reach or the fact u have to go find it to stop it?

lrms were fine before the handicap nerf...now their pathetic... they were fine by me before the artemis patch...now their pathetic..

u realize u can scream to high heavens bout support weapon all you want...but they are long range artillery basically..
and yes...long range arty kills.... not just support ..... and as it is right now....we who like to use lrms and fight from the rear as what u call support..are not even providing adequate support anymore...

the arc was fine...going UP was fine..coming down i will give u gladly was bit unrealistic..

the dmg is not what it states it is..

people will whine to get anything removed/dumbdown if it involves them haven to actually hunt and work for the kill on it.

since i'm mentioned

yeah i do think LRMs need to stay nerfed. why because later we will have Long tom arty and clan weapons that are ACTUALLY ARTILLARY. so we do not need LRMs which have always been support weapons (hey this atlas is fresh, let'***** him so our brawlers can have a chance to kill him) and area denial (we cannot go right side cuz it's wide open and they have LRMs) to be these forms of direct, powerful damage.

Right now i still have to think against LRMs. i do not understand where the hell you guys are coming up with this 3-5 volleys only yellow on an atlas. I run an atlas and after 2 i'm all yellow and 3 makes at the very least my ct orange. so i'd say they make sure i dont act like a dumbass. (and those are volleys from just one trial cat, 2x LRM 15 no artemis). so YES i still use cover and call out LRM boats to die asap. they are still viable, but no longer utterly destroy people.

and ur statement about the arc being fine is absolute crap. everyone knows that arc is broken. it was broken when it was first in the beta at the beginning.it removes cover as a viable option. so please dont even try that avenue. I know i'm not alone in this

please dont be hypocritical. LRMs are the weapon that stupid people use because it's the easiest. so therefore is should do the least amount of damage

[Elder Thorn]

Revorn, on 09 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Meant as a feadback, i wanted only to share my impressions.


But oki, its all about brawling and "Playerskill" i forgot.

i was so waitig for it. 2 Days ago he forums were all like "omg, this is LRM Online" - no we are going back to the old thing "omg, it's Brawlers online" - still waiting for the Gauscat cry though.

LRM are back to be a support weapon, not the primary, all devastating weapon they were, imo it's good for now - and i am currently playing Catapults

[Robdillard]

WarMonkey14, on 08 November 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

well then why the **** should a weapon that does not require careful aim or line of sight be allowed to do the same damage as an ac20, which does require both as well as gets less ammo per ton and weighs way more in tonnage.

so yes it is our opinion, but seriously our opinion makes sense in terms of balance. LRMs not being a support weapon and comparing them in the same category as an AC-20 is ridiculous. if you played battletech, you should feel ashamed of such a statement. I'm ashamed i found it on this forum. Just my opinion

How about 187 m min range? how about requiring a target lock? Everything has drawbacks but since the last patch lrms arent really viable you would be better off mounting direct fire weapons then using them currently as a slow atlas in the open can avoid the bulk of the damage just by walking from lrms

[Greg Djekow]

Lufos, on 09 November 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

finally this game is about brawling BattleMechs and player skills.

Fixed that for you

Brawling isn't everything. However the LRM "nerf" is good.