804 replies to this topic

[Opus]

Prosperity Park, on 04 May 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well, it can be fair, as-is, so long as players in Canon House Units and canon Clan Units do not get to choose when and where their units fight, and so long as all of their fights come out with the victorious party always matching canon.

Since you put it that way, it sounds dull and boring
lets go play Diablo 3 so we can play Diablo 1 again, and again, and again

Edited by Opus, 04 May 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Oh, I also think it'd be fair to stipulate that nobody can create the "85th Lyran Guard" because, face it, that's the same as calling yourself a non-canon branch of the NorthWind Highlanders.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

One tends to spend money on/in a game when it is seen as inclusive. (the reverse is also true.) IMHO.

[Marowi]

I'm a bit late to this party (as usual, the bane of work), but I think Bryan's post from the other day and PGI's policy regarding canon unit and faction names is dead on. It's the most sensible way to approach this issue. I just want to address a few arguments that I feel have little merit:

"I put a lot of work into my unit since [insert date]" - The basic principle here is that "first come, first serve" is an incredibly unfair model when it comes to just one iteration of a game. To argue that your NetMech buddies or tabletop crew have inalienable rights that were established decades before this​ iteration of MechWarrior came out is sheer madness. PGI doesn't have to respect that, but this isn't even about them: what about the hundreds of thousands or even millions of other players who love the same lore you do? You want to treat them as "second-class citizens" (a laughable term being bandied about here) because you had the idea/got to the computer/were born first?

"Mercenaries are completely screwed!" - It's a trade-off. You aren't an interstellar empire. You get to choose where you fight, and you have total control over your team. Don't expect to be the driver of galactic policy, though; four dudes in four 'mechs is still four dudes in four 'mechs. If you really wanted to be part of a canon mercenary company, I think that's tough, but I think the "mini-house" solution for canon mercenary companies (say, the MW4 "Big Four") is a great compromise. Why not?

"Houses are completely screwed!" - Frankly, PGI knows it's done the right thing when both parties in a dispute say they're upset. Again, it's a trade-off. You can't choose where you fight, but you'll most likely still be able to coordinate with teammates. Still, you're an interstellar empire with a lot of easy-access to technology; you'll be in a better position to be a driver of galactic policy. Most likely, the developers will implement a create-your-own-unit function within the Houses or within house units that will give you the same functionality and depth as mercenaries.

Bottom-line: I think this is the right policy and, save for a few tweaks, I don't think it should change. I think a few tweaks should address the concerns of mercenary companies and great house players. I think the people upset about the game not giving them special deference for their exertions in previous iterations, platforms, or games are out of their minds. They're upset simply because their team has to change its name. At best. That's not an over-simplification: that's exactly the issue. Obviously, these aren't the kind of people that should be in charge of the lore or are going to encourage newcomers to come play the game. Bryan and company have my full support for a fair game with deference to canon that's accessible to all.

Edited by Marowi, 04 May 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Tronchaser]

This thread makes me happy for some reason.

[PhelenWard]

Has any one Clamed Wolf Spiders as a unit or will it even be aloud?

[Sprouticus]

Face it guys, with the extremely restricted optons PGI has due to having to stick to canon, they have to limit things. They will limit which planets we can attack, they will limit the names of units. They will probably have to limit clan/Is interactions somehow (otherwise it will devolve into Clan v IS 24/7.

It would have been nice if they had either gone with another timeframe and allowed for an alternate timeline (3025, post 3039, or post Tukayyidd/3052), but that is not how they decided to play it.

Enjoy the advantages (anticipation of big events, the clans, the story lines)

[Kaemon]

Agreed, first PR kerfuffel (had to be done, and it's a good one to get it out of the way).

It would be nice to get an official announcement in the dev section (I'm not sending the new cadets into this LZ while it's still hot) clarifying this as part of the next Q&A, just so we can get rid of 90% of the rage posts in here.

This is going to be hell to enforce, any manual process will be brutally time intensive as groups constantly try to get around the restrictions

Protip: Asking Bryan/Russ/Paul to allow your group is not going to help...

I agree with the policy, I feel for the long term RPers, and agree some of the larger Merc Corps should (in time) get an NPC faction to join.

If there taking applications for Mech Corp Name Deniers (formerly known as CMs) my rubber stamp is at the ready!

Edited by Kaemon, 04 May 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Chuckie]

Opus, on 04 May 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

what you can't mouse fast enough?

I mean good idea, oh and look another smoldering ember

[HeIIequin]

Ehhh this thread gives me a headache, but I guess that's a good thing. A lot of whining on both sides of the argument though, but some decent chaps playing devils advocate somewhere in the middle makes me feel a bit better. In summary:

Mezzanine, on 04 May 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

I can empathize with those who have worked hard to build canon merc units and are now left looking for a new option. I also think the developer stance makes a lot of sense, given that it's been the precedence in other MMOs.

I think the best solution would be a la MW4. If you remember, you created your own merc unit, but chose to affiliate it with one of the major merc "houses" a la GDL, NWH, etc. I think that all merc units should be able to have this option when they are created or even down the road. You might lose some of the control over your unit, given that you report to an NPC/GM faction, but you would still have your own smaller organization and be recognized as a part of the major canonical unit. In my opinion, this will closely mirror what it sounds like they're doing for the House units, and would be a good compromise.

Whether or not this can go in at launch, please consider (or better yet, promise) that a system like this can be established for canon merc units.

^^ Good idea. Said by many, but Mezzanine put it together best. I still think this sort of thing is what PGI may try to aim for. Here's hoping that it's just a legal thing potentially holding them back, but the way will be cleared and all will be well. Mercs will just have to make a new name somewhat similar to their associated unit.
I'd also put this issue near the front burner PGI. Sure, we all know that lawyers (if it IS them that's the issue) like to drag their feet, but if you don't hurry it up, the rabble may form protest lines in front of your office .

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Sprouticus, on 04 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

(otherwise it will devolve into Clan v IS 24/7.)

isn't that the point?

[Kaemon]

Pony units are canon right?

[Hylius]

Look, I'm totally okay with keeping canon units out of people's hands. It's the right move all around. I prefer Clan Wolf above all the possible Battletech factions, but it makes little sense for me to create a group that claims either sole ownership of the Wolf name or to be some rogue unit or whatnot. It just doesn't work. I'm just worried about the fine print is all and would like more details on that, for units (like ours) that have their name and/or logo influenced by a canon group but otherwise consider themselves to have no relation. That's all I want to see.

[Omega59er]

PhelenWard, on 04 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Has any one Clamed Wolf Spiders as a unit or will it even be aloud?

The Wolf Spiders have been around for a decade or so, as has the Black Widow Company, but they wont be able to use their names in MWO. This sucks.
But we'll overcome it.

[SquareSphere]

Just another 2 cents to be thrown in. A lot of the "unit ownership" issue is also due to MWO trying to retell events leading up to the clan invasion and the invasion itself.

If they follow the invasion storyline exactly, the devs MUST control major factions and smaller influential units/orgs to recreate events faithfully.

On the flip side, it hasn't been an issue in the past because all players action story telling were localized into single player which didn't not affect the canon at large. Add on to this, many of these "history" player orgs that were founded around the many planetary/organized leagues NEVER impacted the official canon universe.

The evolution of social and electronic gaming is now at a convergence point where players want to influence not only their game experience but the larger official universe as well.

Right now, MWO is a RETELLING of the event leading to and then occurring during the Clan Invasion. For the most part it means (arbitrary number here) 85% of what's happened already will happen again but with minor changes (ie Mech redesigns, when certain assets/techs will be introduced etc). That means we know the Star League will be reformed an boot the clanners out eventually.

Personally, (and this really really doesn't count for much) I've wanted MWO to be a REBOOT letting the players CHANGE AND INFLUENCE how the Clan invasion will turn out. That way we don't really know WHO will be the winner, but regardless it's on the players (with a little help from the devs to balance stuff ) to determine the future.

Edited by SquareSphere, 04 May 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[Tyr Gunn]

Claw55, on 03 May 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

I can say right now that the majority of the 1st R[Redacted] R[Redacted]s are in support of this decision. Besides, even nameless, we're still a big step up from The [Redacted] [Redacted]s. No offense, [Redacted] .

You son of a... [Redacted] you, man! The [Redacted] [Redacted]s are the best group there is. A damn sight better that the [Redacted]st R[Redacted] [Redacted]s at least! Sheesh!

In all seriousness, there is little point in harping out the points here anymore. Most people replying now obviously haven't read the whole thing and nothing new is being added. If the Devs wanted to drop a link to the block of text outlining which names are not allowed, that's about all that can be wrung out of this thread at this point. I'm thinking of the block of text from which Bryan crushed the hopes and dreams of anyone with the words "Wolf" and/or "Dragoon" in their unit name.

I'd like to still call ourselves Highlanders, but considering the list of disallowed names from that block, we probably couldn't even call ourselves the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foot. Every one of those words is associated to another cannon unit and probably in that list. It also happens to be the most famous, REAL WORLD, Highlander regiment in the world (next to the Royal Black Watch).

So yeah, I love that PGI is making a new Mechwarrior game for me to play, but I also think they've stumbled a bit on the PR front and this is a clear example. The best way forward at this point is to be as transparent about this as you can be. Vagarity and incomplete information is only driving the wedge deeper. Either tells us, "We're still working all this out, we don't know" or give us your master list of forbidden names. Give your playerbase the same guidelines that you'll be giving the CSR deciding if we can have our identities, whatever they may be.

[GaussDragon]

http://www.youtube.c...h_v_our_Q#t=47s

[Sprouticus]

GaussDragon, on 04 May 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...h_v_our_Q#t=47s

I am Sprouticus......

[Rnadmo]

Tyr Gunn, on 04 May 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I'd like to still call ourselves Highlanders, but considering the list of disallowed names from that block, we probably couldn't even call ourselves the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foot. Every one of those words is associated to another cannon unit and probably in that list. It also happens to be the most famous, REAL WORLD, Highlander regiment in the world (next to the Royal Black Watch).

How about "Crylanders"?

Seriously, jokes aside that is the mental name I have for the lot of ya.

[Marowi]

Quote

Either tells us, "We're still working all this out, we don't know" or give us your master list of forbidden names. Give your playerbase the same guidelines that you'll be giving the CSR deciding if we can have our identities, whatever they may be.

I disagree. PGI has actually handled this extremely well, all things considered. Remember, this is a game still in development, yet at least two of their employees have taken the time to outline a highly contentious policy decision and discuss its implications with us. I think the choice you've constructed is a false one: PGI can tell us what the basic rule is going to be without also being forced to delve into horrific detail inter alia. Moreover, the basic rule they've outlined is fairly common: Star Trek Online, for example, has virtually the same rule (although whether Atari/Cryptic enforces it is another matter, entirely).

What you're asking for is no different than asking PGI to confirm whether or not the name you like is going to be OK under the policy as actually implemented--only it takes a lot more work from their end. On that point, why should PGI be dragged into debates with individual users on their own forums about whether or not X-name or Y-name is okay? Remember: this is about fairness. Telling us the specific guidelines now, say, for the CSRs, when they may change between now and release is not fair to a lot of people. One, it locks PGI into virtual "promises" with people on an ad hoc basis. Two, for the people who really, really care about the names of their units or gaming organizations from previous platforms, it creates expectations that may be unrealistic and ultimately disappointing. Three, for the rest of society, it may have the effect of locking out people who have just as much a right to certain names as everyone else. We all have different feelings and goals re. MechWarrior, and we're all going to get a fresh start on release. This policy isn't uncommon, and the way PGI has handled it is far from a snafu: in fact, I think they've been as transparent as they possibly can without also being irresponsible.

Edited by Marowi, 04 May 2012 - 05:38 PM.