249 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Obeast, on 29 November 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Holy $h!T Captain, you stirred the pot!

Lemme start off by saying, I run with Captain on just about a daily basis on TS with a few other guys. I have no doubt about his skill with a mech, sure he isn't a Rockwolf ( LOL!) but he is still damn good. Ive known his stance on LRM/SSRMs for a while now, and I agree. They are a joke to use, I mean seriously...its so hard to keep the Circle inside the Square. To think for one second it takes as much skill to use them versus ballistics, or even laser, is laughable. There is no comparison, period.
In case you are wondering, I do run a Streakapult, and an LRM boat, it is almost required to win. Especially if you are facing them.
As an example, my current favorite mech is the Hunchback 4-sp, 255xl, 2xSRM6 w/artemis, 4xML and Tag. I regularly push 500 and sometimes as high as 750, in an all direct fire configuring. That with me focusing and trying my absolute best to push out some damage. In my Streakapult/LRM boat, I could do the same while watching ****, jerking it and eating cheetos (yes in that order!).

Last time i checked... SRM6s are Missile weapons that hit random locations. Funny I use almost the same config as you (almost) and you are saying that you average the same damage I do in a missile boat Atlas and the same Hunchback?Guess you have an easy mode mech also.

[Obeast]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Last time i checked... SRM6s are Missile weapons that hit random locations. Funny I use almost the same config as you (almost) and you are saying that you average the same damage I do in a missile boat Atlas and the same Hunchback?Guess you have an easy mode mech also.

Complete and utter reading failure.

SRM6's are missiles? Damn I didn't realize........................

The point being made (which is clearly lost on you) is that Lock On Missiles are complete easy mode. People who use them should have an asterisk (like Barry Bonds!) beside their damage done indicating they were playing on what essentially is "Arcade Mode" in a Sim game.

[Broceratops]

if i had a group of 8 different people of varying ability, the worst guy would be on lrm duty thats for sure.

this doesn't make it a bad weapon for bad players but i'd never be impressed with a guy based on his ability to spam lrms.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

If you are crying about LRMs...let see what Arrow IV will do with your tears

[Joseph Mallan]

Oh so our soldiers who are of the cannon cocker MOS are not as important to the success of a military victory? You sir are a narrrow visioned person to compare killing at a distance with shooting up steriods. You insult a very necessary combat MOS.

Reading comprehension above your writing comprehension...

Quote

in an all direct fire configuring

Which was referring to your Hunchback that uses missiles and does some 500 points of damage? You even use Artemis to tighten the missiles spread. I on the other hand don't and I still get the same results as you. So please spare me your indignation. you use fire and forget Missiles to pad your damage, and add yourself to the asterisk list.

Quote

If you are crying about LRMs...let see what Arrow IV will do with your tears

Amen brother. Amen!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 November 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[Khobai]

I see no problem with weapons that lock-on per say. The problem comes when people boat weapons that lock-on. Like when you have three LRM15s on a D-DC or six SSRM2s on an A1.

So the best solution IMO is to make sure having one or two of those weapon system is viable but that boating them is not viable. Mixed loadouts should be encouraged and boating should be discouraged.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Well but 2xALRM20 is not boating and still giving great punch of dmg

[BlackSquirrel]

Ugh... This debate in planetside 2 with lock on systems.

Game isn't about you 1 v 1.

It's about team warfare. In the end it's really about how well your team did than the others. If they out smarted you by bringing better load outs than so be it.

EvE mentality needs to shine through in more games... If you're fighting fair You're doing it wrong.
I see this akin to chivalry and Knights v. bows and later gun powder.

Now then should there be a system to help break locks? IE: Mech chaff? sure (Aside from LRMS because just get into cover. ) Also if you wiggle around when piloting then they can't maintain a lock FYI.

Edit: Also I suppose i've played a **** ton of games where "lock ons" occur. But **** has no one played battlefield series or other games that have this? All guns == boring, and fly by wire missiles aren't always viable.

Edited by BlackSquirrel, 29 November 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[Obeast]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Oh so our soldiers who are of the cannon cocker MOS are not as important to the success of a military victory? You sir are a narrrow visioned person to compare killing at a distance with shooting up steriods. You insult a very necessary combat MOS.

Reading comprehension above your writing comprehension...
Which was referring to your Hunchback that uses missiles and does some 500 points of damage? You even use Artemis to tighten the missiles spread. I on the other hand don't and I still get the same results as you. So please spare me your indignation. you use fire and forget Missiles to pad your damage, and add yourself to the asterisk list.


Amen brother. Amen!

Narrow minded? LoL
Its fact that SSRMs/LRMs are patheticly easy to use Lock on firing weapons. Period.

Read my post again about the Hunchback, its an ALL Direct fire configuration, no lock on...no arcing over a ridge...no hiding like a girl...Its in your face DIRECT FIRE damage. You know what DIRECT FIRE means, right? Or do I really need to explain it?

[JudgeDeathCZ]

I think there should be some module which will break lock on use with 1 min CD...hey what a great idea

[Justa Dogtrooper]

Artillery (LRM) and direct fire are two different skill sets.
Each with their own advantages and drawbacks and Tactics.

You cant put them both on the same set of scales.
Argue the toss over Lasers vs ballistic.
or sreak vs srm....

So I voted no to all of the above, sorry

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

No. What you fail to understand is that there is a tactical/strategic reason for using missiles. I want you dead BEFORE you get to shoot at me. Do Abrams Tanks wait till an enemy is within 200M to shoot OR do they try to shoot them 2 klick away? It's also why I was trained to be able to shoot the enemy at 500M away. So killing at range is a time honored military practice. And since I have the training to be a professional killer, I will apply that training in this military simulation game or a FPS if I choose.

This is the only reason why I don't support a big nerf. I dislike LRMs but the tactics they introduce to the game are necessary and make for a better game dynamic. Making them relatively easy to use is an annoyance to me but if it keeps newbs and people with lag/fps issues happy for a little bit of OP then so be it.

Last night I ran my 2LRM20,UAC5,2LrgLas atlas to confirm support yet again on the ease of use. When in proper position, LRM targeting is like taking candy from a baby. Loss of lock was inconsequential and support while other teammates were engaging was very deadly and effective. In fact, it was so easy and effective I could keep an LRM lock on one target to support a teammate and aim with my UAC5/2LrgLas at a whole new target at the same time. I think that outlines the ease of use point nicely.

[Joseph Mallan]

Obeast, on 29 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Narrow minded? LoL
Its fact that SSRMs/LRMs are patheticly easy to use Lock on firing weapons. Period.

Read my post again about the Hunchback, its an ALL Direct fire configuration, no lock on...no arcing over a ridge...no hiding like a girl...Its in your face DIRECT FIRE damage. You know what DIRECT FIRE means, right? Or do I really need to explain it?

It is quite easy to understand, But you are not understanding that LRMs are somewhat more dificult to use than fire and forget LoS weapons. If your enemy in not in your cross hairs you aren't hitting. If I don't keep my cross hairs over the target locked enemy 900 M away guess what I am not hitting. There is no real skill in using lasers and ballistic weapons. I know, I'm a Marine Rifle Expert. Do you think I learned how to shoot out someone's eyes at 500 M so I could let him get into knife range? Do you understand how stupid your argument is to someone who actually trained to kill people? Do you? Ask a Vet if they wanted to be in a furball or to have been able to kill the enemy three hills away. Go on, Ask any one of Murphy's Laws Vets. I'm sure there are a few of us who might actually know more about what's the best way to kill an enemy and what isn't.

Or do I need to explain it to you?

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Obeast, on 29 November 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Holy $h!T Captain, you stirred the pot!

Lemme start off by saying, I run with Captain on just about a daily basis on TS with a few other guys. I have no doubt about his skill with a mech, sure he isn't a Rockwolf ( LOL!) but he is still damn good. Ive known his stance on LRM/SSRMs for a while now, and I agree. They are a joke to use, I mean seriously...its so hard to keep the Circle inside the Square. To think for one second it takes as much skill to use them versus ballistics, or even laser, is laughable. There is no comparison, period.
In case you are wondering, I do run a Streakapult, and an LRM boat, it is almost required to win. Especially if you are facing them.
As an example, my current favorite mech is the Hunchback 4-sp, 255xl, 2xSRM6 w/artemis, 4xML and Tag. I regularly push 500 and sometimes as high as 750, in an all direct fire configuring. That with me focusing and trying my absolute best to push out some damage. In my Streakapult/LRM boat, I could do the same while watching ****, jerking it and eating cheetos (yes in that order!).

You have to eat the cheetos last or you can get a bad case of orange *****.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

RedHairDave, on 29 November 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

i didnt vote, i dont see a skill difference in-between direct fire and lrm/ssrm. there are all very easy to hit with. there is a very low skill requirements in mwo. i just dont see the reason that people think direct fire takes more skill or talent. its all relatively simple.

How about the fact that with LRMs you do not have to expose yourself to enemy fire but with everything else you do. That is the real perk of the LRM IMO. The fact that they do more damage than pretty much everything else in the game is just crazy.

Regardless of however the weapons are balanced, the best players will use the best equipment and roll noobs. It's just making the game a big snooze fest because they have buffed LRMs to the point that nobody wants to come out from cover to actually fight. Less fun = Bad.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

HlynkaCG, on 28 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Is this a bad thing?

Battletech has been around (i'd wager) since before you were born so there must be something to it.



I'm on NGNG, usually log in at 1800 pacific standard time. Teamspeak name is same as my forum profile.

Further more, if we do drop together and your team does win I will post as much on this forum and concede the point. Afterall, it's not bragging if you can back it up.

Would you be willing to do the same? Or would you pull a "no true scotsman" and blame your loss on your team mates, or say that I was "carried" by mine?

PS:
Current win loss is 496/200 and K/D is 1.67 I drive a Commando, a Cataphract, and a Hunchback 4P

I will also echo what others have said and point out that this is a war game not a sports arena and that while being a 10th Dan blackbelt may make you a badass soldiers carry rifles for a reason.

Oh I would post it regardless. We can fraps the entire fight and put it on youtube if you like. Good fights are always fun to watch.

Not sure what NGNG is but the time will work fine. Lets make this happen. Should be fun. The random pugs we have on our team may be a factor or not. You can never tell but it will all be resolved when they put 8 mans back in. I can't wait for it.

P.S. Every time I post my stats people scream that I'm trying to brag. I'll just let my actions on the battlefield be a representation of my abilities and of those that I run with.

[Nightcrept]

Does anyone else find this conversation funny?

We have people crying that indirect fire weapons are easy mode and direct fire are leet. While at the same time saying that they have to use said indirect fire weapons to be competitive. And they want us to nerf indirect fire weapons so they don't have to use them anymore.

So they have to use easy weapons and they want the rest of us who don't have to use said weapons to make them harder to use so they can play harder to use weapons. Huh?

In essence aren't they admitting to being bad players? And last I checked we can't balance out bad playing. Learn to shoot and the problem is solved.


Edit. This is mainly in reference to lrms. I did an experiment with ssrms that scared me to death so they need adjusted a little.

Edited by Nightcrept, 29 November 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[Elwood Blues]

Streak Cats are to MWO what the autoshotty is to CS. It is the noobcannon. A not-so-great pilot can do pretty well with one. A good pilot can be dangerous with one. The trade off, once they finally fixed it, is damage spread. A good pilot would likely be deadlier with a direct fire weapon doing damage to more specific locations. They are great against lights because lights can be difficult to hit with direct fire weapons, for reasons that include lag armor. Against heavier targets, I'd much rather have lasers or projectiles.

I think the only thing to watch out for is when SSRM 4s and 6s come out. Then the noobcannon may become unbalanced, but we'll have to see then.

[BlackSquirrel]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 29 November 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

How about the fact that with LRMs you do not have to expose yourself to enemy fire but with everything else you do. That is the real perk of the LRM IMO. The fact that they do more damage than pretty much everything else in the game is just crazy.

Regardless of however the weapons are balanced, the best players will use the best equipment and roll noobs. It's just making the game a big snooze fest because they have buffed LRMs to the point that nobody wants to come out from cover to actually fight. Less fun = Bad.

Yup thats what indirect fire is called. Also no no they dont do more damage, and you can avoid them by...moving, or AMS, or not being spotted or now ECM.

TA DA!!!

Nightcrept, on 29 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Does anyone else find this conversation funny?

We have people crying that indirect fire weapons are easy mode and direct fire are leet. While at the same time saying that they have to use said indirect fire weapons to be competitive. And they want us to nerf indirect fire weapons so they don't have to use them anymore.

So they have to use easy weapons and they want the rest of us who don't have to use said weapons to make them harder to use so they can play harder to use weapons. Huh?

In essence aren't they admitting to being bad players? And last I checked we can't balance out bad playing. Learn to shoot and the problem is solved.


Edit. This is mainly in reference to lrms. I did an experiment with ssrms that scared me to death so they need adjusted a little.

Well yes there is no fix for stupid.

[IamSeanConnery]

It's not just about pointing and shooting. I feel I have to list these items at this point.
Direct fire (ACs specifically ) require:
-Leading your target based on their motion
-Leading your target based on your own motion
-Managing your heat as to not overheat. (overheating in close combat contributes to death and DPS loss)
-Tracking your target as your mech is moving
-Aiming at a specific component to do effective damage (this is not easy. Just watch people in spectator mode. Miss rates are quite high, especially for new players. Denying this fact is ignorance)
-Managing torso alignment while moving to avoid not being able to aim
-Managing two target reticules to shoot from
-If using different weapons , you may need to aim differently for each one-
-Positioning yourself within your team to allow you to fire, but not hit your teammates
-Positioning yourself during a fire fight (circling, flanking, popping, etc etc to avoid damage. (Since you don't have the luxury of being away from the heat of battle). Quick death=no help to the group.

LRM Skills:
-Positioning to avoid direct fire and/or "popping out"
-Positioning to allow LRM arc to leave mech
-Logic or data feed from teammates to know what target is open and when to "lock on and fire". Just because you have a red carrot doesn't mean you should fire at it.This is mainly important for very long distances. This is the most difficult part, but not hard to master with light training.
-Knowing when to stop firing because targeted mech is not in the open and switch to another target
-Ability when a lock is lost to hover over to re-lock. Aim doesn't need to be exact. Just in the general target of the mech. Once lock is complete you can turn even 90 degrees away and still fire at that target.

Notice that most LRM skills are more classroom trainable where direct fire skills are more practice based. Overall, there are more things you should be thinking about as direct fire which must be juggled at once. A huge one is actual mech piloting.
Edit1:added header

Edited by Platinum Booger, 29 November 2012 - 08:39 AM.