249 replies to this topic

[FerretGR]

Garrath, on 28 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Anyways, to the OP, regardless of your view, and whether you want an arena game or our BATTLETECH game, there is a huge difference in effectiveness between a good missile pilot, and a bad.

Strongly agreed. Seems there's some skill involved in the use of LRMs despite the OP's oversimplifications.

[Bobzilla]

T a z z, on 28 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'm bored so I'll bite

I'm a Catapult pilot who has used almost every weapon in the game at one time or another. Sometimes the weapons I used were called OP (GaussCat) and other times I was mocked for using such silly weapons (PPCS /w single heatsinks). Over this time period I've seen many weapons become the flavor of the day, only to have someone figure out a method to counter this style without the devs having to swing the nerfbat left and right. It's the classic Rock, Paper, Scissors scenario.

Some players insist a build should not be possible because it's not 'canon'. Yet, rarely do they consider how much custimization was possible in TT. Others seek to create balance via kneejerk reactions without allowing the community time to react. And even more view the game based solely on what target they can't kill effectively. Not enough players, take a second to step back and ask what they are doing wrong... and why THEY caused themselves to fail.

Take LRMs in this case: a canon weapon designed to support via indirect medium to long range fire spreading the damage across the oppenent creating weak spots on the target for allies to exploit. As a Catapult pilot, I've played matches where both teammates and I used the same LRM15x2 for the entire match achieving vastly different damage totals. What caused this damage difference if no skill is involved?

The truth is, my fellow teammates lacked the skill and understanding to be effective with LRMs. A player sitting at 1km+ blindly depending upon allies for targets firing and forgetting LRMs will fail to hit any intellegent target. At this range, often the user does not have enough information to determine if the target is already behind cover. What more, any decent player can simply step behind cover resulting in a wasted shot. Lastly, there are more advanced techinques which allow for LRM avoidance without cover at this range.

Instead, a skilled LRM pilot engages his targets keeping a safe but effective range while being situationally aware so he does not get caught offguard. I fire the majority of my LRMs at 200-400m with a clear knowledge of which will hit and which will miss as they are coming out the launcher. While any oppenent could easily step in 100m and destroy my ability to fire, my SKILL in piloting the mech keeps me aware and allows me to continue to fire by dancing with my targets to regain my range when required.

TLDR: If you are a player getting killed by LRMs by my teammate sitting at 1k, you lack skill. If you are a player getting killed by my LRMs at 200-400m then I have enough skill to avoid your fire and control the fight.

So your saying that being really good at using something makes it more effective? Noone is arguing that.
They are arguing whats easier to use.

So you don't think having lasers, or gauss or ac having a lock on option would make them easier to use? Of course it would as locking on is easier to use!

I have no problem with missles as is (other than a streak boat, as i can't seem to break a lock or out damage them), but they are easier to use.

[Joseph Mallan]

Voridan Atreides, on 28 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think your just biased towards Jenners..i mean...considering you have one lol...

I've played a Jenner for 3 days. I love my Atlas. I also have a Catapult (LRMs not Gauss) and a Hunchback. SO No bias here

[Mongoose Trueborn]

They will just call you a troll because you are good, Midnight. The forums are dominated by noobs.

Edited by Mongoose Trueborn, 28 November 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Endbr1nger]

I have been playing this game for the past 3-4 months and this is actually the first time I have ever felt the need to post.

Before you dismiss me as some missile boating newb, here are my qualifications (http://www.gotfrag.c...rtal/user/1609/). I may be an old gamer, but I would guess I have more competitive FPS experience than the OP. I drive a guass Dragon, and I have no problem leading targets with my guass rifle or the ER large I have in my right arm.


Who are you people who are getting dominated by LRMs? Aside from the couple of days where artemis totally broke LRM boats, I have never had a problem dealing with missiles . I do not understand where this undercurrent of whining comes from? Maybe its because I drive a dragon, and so can flank all the missile boats using cover? I don't understand how you could possibly think LRM's are overpowered.

The OP is completely wrong about how to balance this type of game. The entire premise of your post is that a game should be balanced around skill. With the hardest to use weapon's doing the most damage. This is not a game balanced around individual skill, but around rolls (In addition your argument is horribly flawed, by your logic a machine gun should do the most damage in the game, as it requires the most skill to use since it sucks). If you are looking for the next great e-sport, this is not it, find a new game to jump to.

LRM's are just fine, and so are streaks. I have never feared a streak Cat on the battlefield, once I see a streak loadout I simply back up from the Cat and fire from out of range. If I am stuck close I simply hit the catapult in the head. It is stupid easy to headshot Cat's, so I have never felt that any of the Cat builds were OP.

[Krivvan]

The punishment for using lock-on weapons is the increased tonnage you need to field them.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Krivvan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

The punishment for using lock-on weapons is the increased tonnage you need to field them.

Wow you suck at math.

[Krivvan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Wow you suck at math.

I suck at knowing that the Streak costs more tonnage than the regular SRM? That you can achieve a far more focused and effective damage output with a direct fire weapon compared to an LRM?

Also, the fact that LRMs do 0 damage under 180 M is a gigantic handicap to them. It's far more of a handicap than a PPC that will still at least do some damage under 90 M.

Mechs that rely solely on LRMs are an absolute joke against the right kind of mech. The price those pilots pay for using 'no-skill' weapons is being completely useless when a light mech saunters up to it.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

Whigning about Skilled vs Unskilled is something people do after they've been beaten by something they weren't prepared for.

In the end victory is the only metric that matters.

[Bobzilla]

Endbr1nger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

LRM's are just fine, and so are streaks. I have never feared a streak Cat on the battlefield, once I see a streak loadout I simply back up from the Cat and fire from out of range. If I am stuck close I simply hit the catapult in the head. It is stupid easy to headshot Cat's, so I have never felt that any of the Cat builds were OP.

It's that easy, just shoot its head or keep away.
Really? How fast does your dragon go? Do you alway find the streak cat alone so you can take the time to shoot his head whithout someone else rocking you around too? Do you find the streak cat that forgets about his jump jets? I guess the hight of a dragon helps to hit the head.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Vernius Ix, on 28 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Since you seem to be slow let me break this down for you.

The TEAM that works best together should win every match.

The TEAM that can best use all facets of play (Maneuver, Target Priority, etc..) to continually harass the other team should win every match.

Just because a team has one or two exceptional players does not guarantee victory if they do not know how to work in a TEAM.

Got it?

100% wrong. The team that puts the most damage on targets the fastest wins. It's not about anything other than killing mechs. If you doubt me then lets play. You can spend 4 hours on your "epic strat" and I will simply get 8 of the best players I know. Then you can spend another 4 hours arguing over what strat will beat what we did. Fact is that a good pilot won't need a strat because they know how to drive their mech. Just telling my guys to play tight is all we need to overcome 4 pugs pulling a Leroy, usually. My 94% win rate is proof. Over half my losses are from getting LOL capped.

[Nightcrept]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

They will just call you a troll because you are good, Midnight. The forums are dominated by noobs.

Yeah ok sure. That is exactly why so many players are disagreeing with him.

Endbr1nger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I have been playing this game for the past 3-4 months and this is actually the first time I have ever felt the need to post.

Before you dismiss me as some missile boating newb, here are my qualifications (http://www.gotfrag.c...rtal/user/1609/). I may be an old gamer, but I would guess I have more competitive FPS experience than the OP. I drive a guass Dragon, and I have no problem leading targets with my guass rifle or the ER large I have in my right arm.


Who are you people who are getting dominated by LRMs? Aside from the couple of days where artemis totally broke LRM boats, I have never had a problem dealing with missiles . I do not understand where this undercurrent of whining comes from? Maybe its because I drive a dragon, and so can flank all the missile boats using cover? I don't understand how you could possibly think LRM's are overpowered.

The OP is completely wrong about how to balance this type of game. The entire premise of your post is that a game should be balanced around skill. With the hardest to use weapon's doing the most damage. This is not a game balanced around individual skill, but around rolls (In addition your argument is horribly flawed, by your logic a machine gun should do the most damage in the game, as it requires the most skill to use since it sucks). If you are looking for the next great e-sport, this is not it, find a new game to jump to.

LRM's are just fine, and so are streaks. I have never feared a streak Cat on the battlefield, once I see a streak loadout I simply back up from the Cat and fire from out of range. If I am stuck close I simply hit the catapult in the head. It is stupid easy to headshot Cat's, so I have never felt that any of the Cat builds were OP.

Thank you. Your assessment is dead on.

[Krivvan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

100% wrong. The team that puts the most damage on targets the fastest wins. It's not about anything other than killing mechs.

It's the team that puts out the most focused damage on targets that wins. And LRMs are incapable of component focused damage. You'll have high numbers, but you won't have many kills unless your opponents are, to put it rudely, brain-dead.

I mean ffs, you can actually completely avoid LRM missile damage in a light mech if you simply do a sharp turn right before they hit. That combined with the minimum range is a gigantic penalty for using LRMs.

You may have a valid point about streaks, but there still exists a weight penalty for using them.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

HlynkaCG, on 28 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Whigning about Skilled vs Unskilled is something people do after they've been beaten by something they weren't prepared for.

In the end victory is the only metric that matters.

Never met you but I'm willing to bet that His win % is much better than yours.

Is your next comment going to be that stats don't matter or that you only pug in trial mechs?

[Nightcrept]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

100% wrong. The team that puts the most damage on targets the fastest wins. It's not about anything other than killing mechs. If you doubt me then lets play. You can spend 4 hours on your "epic strat" and I will simply get 8 of the best players I know. Then you can spend another 4 hours arguing over what strat will beat what we did. Fact is that a good pilot won't need a strat because they know how to drive their mech. Just telling my guys to play tight is all we need to overcome 4 pugs pulling a Leroy, usually. My 94% win rate is proof. Over half my losses are from getting LOL capped.

How can he be 100% wrong when you made the exact same point he did in the quote. Is it because you reworded it?

Anyone else find that funny?

[Purlana]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Never met you but I'm willing to bet that His win % is much better than yours.

Is your next comment going to be that stats don't matter or that you only pug in trial mechs?

Stats don't matter. A bad player can be in a good team and get carried. K/D ratio can be padded by disconnecting.

Edited by Purlana, 28 November 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

A lot of people said that after the Artemis bug patch, were you one of them? You really think pointing your MOUSE at an enemy mech takes skill? (and it takes 2 seconds of not pointing to lose the lock, and a milisecond of your mouse crossing over them to maintain the lock)

Let me put it this way... I've seen someone with the 4 FPS bug land a volley of missiles. I can't say the same for any other weapon ever because none of the other weapons are so poorly designed and so lacking in skill requirement that even at 4 FPS they could do it.

i would point out that to shoot a line of sight weapon all one does is "point the mouse at them".
lrms are OP to those who panic and or don't comprehend cover. I seldom get taken out by them, and when I do it is usually my fault.

streakapults on the other hand, are pretty freaking ********. because they hit even AFTER losing lock. And the shake.

otherwise, try tactics bro.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Endbr1nger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

...This is not a game balanced around individual skill, but around rolls...

This forums are dominated by this crap. People with a cup of dice that want MWO to be a 3d version of TT.

People that are really good just want to play the game and kill mechs. You will never see as many on the forums, ever.

Edited by Mongoose Trueborn, 28 November 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

100% wrong. The team that puts the most damage on targets the fastest wins. It's not about anything other than killing mechs. If you doubt me then lets play. You can spend 4 hours on your "epic strat" and I will simply get 8 of the best players I know. Then you can spend another 4 hours arguing over what strat will beat what we did. Fact is that a good pilot won't need a strat because they know how to drive their mech. Just telling my guys to play tight is all we need to overcome 4 pugs pulling a Leroy, usually. My 94% win rate is proof. Over half my losses are from getting LOL capped.

I don't think you've played on or against a really good team then.

You've got your veterans patch so I know you were around to see the orginal NGNG and Run Hot tournements.

A team of mediocre (unskilled in your eyes) pilots that work together will wipe the floor with any group that doesn't. The situation was so bad (good in my eyes) that teamplay had to nerfed by restricting the ability of clans to drop together. (4 man groups)

[Enigmos]

They are different weapons systems, and the pilot who uses them sacrifices something else for them.

When I buy a new Atlas the LRMs are normally the first sacrifice I make on the alter of weight.

None of these weapons systems are unavailable to you. To use them or not is your choice.

But you don't get to dictate the choices of others just because you have a dislike for a given toolset.