349 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

Teralitha, on 01 December 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I was referring to your comment about how TDM is only about who has the bigger guns, which was just a dumb thing for you to say. (Just one of many examples)Jenner have tiny guns, but can kill anything. Matchmaking makes teams even. So no, it isnt about who has the bigger guns, its all about who the better team is.

i have never played a PvP game that had a TDM that wasnt about 2 things: biggest baddest gear possible, and fastest kills possible. so, unless you can prove to me, FACTUALLY, WITH OUT MAKING UP A SINGLE BYTE OF DATA, you are dead wrong as far as TDM goes. as far as who the better team is? it is the team that wins the match as efficiently as quickly as possible with minimal losses to them. sounds like a familiar tactic now doesnt it. oh right, dear ol SunTzu said:

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

which, is exactly what defines the superior team. period.

edit: color codes..

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 02 December 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[Teralitha]

Stalephreak, on 02 December 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I would like to apoligize on behalf of HJ for Tera's post. He really does feel this way, and does feel that his time spent in previous mechwarriors does make him more intelligent that "everybody" on the planet. I'm not going into detail, but I will go so far as to repeat that even the majority of HJ that was on our comms disagreed with him on this. I'm relatively new to the group, so I'm sure somebody will probably remind me that I don't have the authority to make the apology for his lack of understanding of debate structure and statistics, but I'm going to make it anyway. This really is just the way that he is, and I cannot emphasize how embarrassing this thread has been.

Tera, I'd like to remind you that it's awfully boring at the, ah-hem, "top" of the heap.

Stalephreak, your like a child, who thinks hes wiser than his parents. And no, you dont have the authority to say jack **** for team HJ

As Ive said before to everyone, I just want to improve the gameplay and raise the skill curve.

If it doesnt improve, thats fine. If the skill curve isnt raised higher, ok. It will just be an easy game.

Edited by Teralitha, 02 December 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Someone is a child here, and its not Stalephreak.

[Rejarial Galatan]

agreed Icefang13.

[Teralitha]

Rejarial Galatan, on 02 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

i have never played a PvP game that had a TDM that wasnt about 2 things: biggest baddest gear possible, and fastest kills possible. so, unless you can prove to me, FACTUALLY, WITH OUT MAKING UP A SINGLE BYTE OF DATA, you are dead wrong

No, unless you can prove to me, factually without making up anything, you are dead wrong.


Basically what your saying is.... mechwarrior isnt a game of skill. that its just a game of whos got the best gear. Nice... Im sure the developers will love to hear how your bashing their hard work to make this a game of skill.

Edited by Teralitha, 02 December 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

No you are wrong because I said so, and deal with it. L2P and L2 guard bases.

[Stalephreak]

Teralitha, on 02 December 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Stalephreak, your like a child, who thinks hes wiser than his parents. And no, you dont have the authority to say jack **** for team HJ

As Ive said before to everyone, I just want to improve the gameplay and raise the skill curve.

If it doesnt improve, thats fine. If the skill curve isnt raised higher, ok. It will just be an easy game.

*Open Letter*

Tera,

First, I'm going to address you treating me as a script kiddie. I am not a kid, and you're sadly messed up if you think that this is the first MechWarrior title I have played. Just because this is the first version YOU have seen me in doesn't stand for squat. As Schodenger so aptly pointed out, one does not know what is not observed. You have no clue of my full background, neither in game, nor in my RL resume. Am I the smartest person out there? Nope. Am I smarter than average? Well, that's sort of a loaded question, but allegedly, according to tests, yes, I am. That's not an ego, that's just numbers. I'm not making a judgment on you, I'm just making a statistical judgement against what is supposed to be a societal norm.

Secondly, I've already addressed the level of authority I have with HJ publicly. You want to bring me up with reprimands now? Then lets have it. Tactically speaking, I'm fair sure that at least 3 groups would be willing to take me. House Jurai is a good group overall, with good people in it who want to make it even better. Failed logic circles are embarrassing, plain and simple, and I know this debacle of a thread has embarrased more than just me within HJ. Not embarrased because we were proven wrong, but that you've resorted to name calling rather than respectful debate. How the ****** are we supposed recruit good talent when you're chasing them off.

This is not a resignation, but ALL negative action will be freely shared with ANY who ask.

-Stalephreak

[Nexx Nisshoko]

Stalephreak, on 02 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

*Open Letter*

Tera,

First, I'm going to address you treating me as a script kiddie. I am not a kid, and you're sadly messed up if you think that this is the first MechWarrior title I have played. Just because this is the first version YOU have seen me in doesn't stand for squat. As Schodenger so aptly pointed out, one does not know what is not observed. You have no clue of my full background, neither in game, nor in my RL resume. Am I the smartest person out there? Nope. Am I smarter than average? Well, that's sort of a loaded question, but allegedly, according to tests, yes, I am. That's not an ego, that's just numbers. I'm not making a judgment on you, I'm just making a statistical judgement against what is supposed to be a societal norm.

Secondly, I've already addressed the level of authority I have with HJ publicly. You want to bring me up with reprimands now? Then lets have it. Tactically speaking, I'm fair sure that at least 3 groups would be willing to take me. House Jurai is a good group overall, with good people in it who want to make it even better. Failed logic circles are embarrassing, plain and simple, and I know this debacle of a thread has embarrased more than just me within HJ. Not embarrased because we were proven wrong, but that you've resorted to name calling rather than respectful debate. How the ****** are we supposed recruit good talent when you're chasing them off.

This is not a resignation, but ALL negative action will be freely shared with ANY who ask.

-Stalephreak

Stale, Lets chat tomorrow please.

Thanks.

[ICEFANG13]

My group would take you too

[Agent of Change]

ICEFANG13, on 02 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

My group would take you too

Mine as well. Stale you've got options if hj dings you for saying what you needed to say.

[Stalephreak]

As stated before House Jurai ( www.nodachi.net ) is a wonderful group. I am not currently looking for another group to join at this moment, but I am not at liberty to discuss further.

[Teralitha]

Stale you should have addressaed your problems with me inside HJ and not posted your bunk on the forums.

Edited by Teralitha, 02 December 2012 - 10:03 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Teralitha, on 02 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

No, unless you can prove to me, factually without making up anything, you are dead wrong.


Basically what your saying is.... mechwarrior isnt a game of skill. that its just a game of whos got the best gear. Nice... Im sure the developers will love to hear how your bashing their hard work to make this a game of skill.

<looks around, then up, then around again just to make certain the world has not changed direction> Teralitha, in TDM there is almost no skill involved, it is more about who has the best gear, pure and simple. The skill you keep trying to, and failing to attatch to TDM is more apt for a Base Capturing Assault Mode. In which the idyoms first stated by Sun Tzu are to be practiced and used. You keep trying to make me sound like I am stupid, when you only succeed in doing so for yourself. You prostlatize about how TDM is superior, then use arguments that completely negate the value of your own argument because the are a cogent and very well <shocking> written defense of Base Capture. You keep saying that the smartest team wins, because they have the most skill, it is not the biggest gun, yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah. You keep defending why we should keep the Base Cap in the game.

[Alois Hammer]

Teralitha, on 02 December 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

No, unless you can prove to me, factually without making up anything, you are dead wrong.

Agreed. And since you've proved nothing whatsoever in the entire duration of this thread except that you don't like base capping, your entire premise is dead wrong. Since, y'know, the only thing remotely resembling evidence is made up. (Nevermind it taking "pretzel logic" to a whole new level.)

[Teralitha]

So its been a week, how do people feel about base capping now?

Rejarial Galatan, on 03 December 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

<looks around, then up, then around again just to make certain the world has not changed direction> Teralitha, in TDM there is almost no skill involved, it is more about who has the best gear, pure and simple. The skill you keep trying to, and failing to attatch to TDM is more apt for a Base Capturing Assault Mode. In which the idyoms first stated by Sun Tzu are to be practiced and used. You keep trying to make me sound like I am stupid, when you only succeed in doing so for yourself. You prostlatize about how TDM is superior, then use arguments that completely negate the value of your own argument because the are a cogent and very well <shocking> written defense of Base Capture. You keep saying that the smartest team wins, because they have the most skill, it is not the biggest gun, yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah. You keep defending why we should keep the Base Cap in the game.

I doubt Sun Tzu ever had to stand on an orange square to capture a city or win a battle. No, he had to kill all enemies in battle to win the battle. Or the enemy retreated. Either, way there was no orange square for him to stand on..... Stop comparing the game to his philosohies. They do not relate.

Edited by Teralitha, 07 December 2012 - 12:36 AM.

[Parmeggido]

Regardless of game type, organised teams will always find the most efficient paths to victory. If it is capping a base, they cap a base. If it is claiming a particular hill and bombarding the enemy with lrms, they'll figure it out and do it. Team death match would eventually become the same slog as base capture once the most strategically valuable positions were found on the limited number of maps, and I doubt it would take long because organised teams can quickly aggregate data and identify advantageous positions. This is why so many have already pointed out the distinct possibility of groups finding the best choke points and turtling on them just as is claimed base capture will inevitably devolve into.
Yes, tedious as it was, I managed to read through all sixteen pages. Indeed, what is found above is little more than my personal opinion, backed up by no more than my personal experience, from Archon, Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, MW3-4, Metaltech Earthsiege 1-2, General Chaos, Star Control 1-3, and yes, we can in fact bring in games from entirely unrelated genres, like Star Craft and Supreme Commander, because certain things will always remain constant. Organised teams will always find the most efficient equipment and strategies to win any game, physical, mental, virtual, period.
That said, I would certainly support the addition of a death match mode, but not at the expense of base capture, because I see no reason to limit the options of the player base by making it a trade off rather than a straight bonus.

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion, in fact, my opinion, and I am therefore biased toward it. Feel free to disagree with me, on the understanding that I may be unwilling to accept your opinion, being of course, biased against it.

So there are my 2 cents. (Although, I have three in my mechbays)

[Teralitha]

I know that if TDM is not implemented, that when/if they add in a pregame lobby and custom premade matches I will be looking to play with other premades that agree to disregard the bases and just play a tactical maneuvering game, and I am sure there will be plenty of other teams that will agree to do this.

[Agent of Change]

Teralitha, on 07 December 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

I know that if TDM is not implemented, that when/if they add in a pregame lobby and custom premade matches I will be looking to play with other premades that agree to disregard the bases and just play a tactical maneuvering game, and I am sure there will be plenty of other teams that will agree to do this.

And then you will lose to capping because in the end a smart group that says they'll straight up fight is going to have a contingency plan if things shift against them.

But in all reality I'm sure you could find some groups meet in the middle of the match to play Atlas face-punch online, though how long they will continue to do so is probably questionable.

[Teralitha]

Agent of Change, on 07 December 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

And then you will lose to capping because in the end a smart group that says they'll straight up fight is going to have a contingency plan if things shift against them.

But in all reality I'm sure you could find some groups meet in the middle of the match to play Atlas face-punch online, though how long they will continue to do so is probably questionable.

LOL why do you make assumptions that a TDM game is nothing but a "go to center of map and atlas facepunch"? From my experience (MW4 Leagues)premade TDM is actually the opposite. Its a longer, drawn out chess game with smart pilots being cautious, trying hit and run tactics with their faster mechs, ducking in and out of cover to maximize damage dealt, and minimize damage taken until one team has the upper hand and pushes on the losing team to bring it to an end.

Now does that sound anything like a "go to center and atlas facepunch" If you choose to stick to that mindset, that is fine, you will just be missing out on a much more tactically challenging game.

[Agent of Change]

Teralitha, on 07 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

LOL why do you make assumptions that a TDM game is nothing but a "go to center of map and atlas facepunch"? From my experience (MW4 Leagues)premade TDM is actually the opposite. Its a longer, drawn out chess game with smart pilots being cautious, trying hit and run tactics with their faster mechs, ducking in and out of cover to maximize damage dealt, and minimize damage taken until one team has the upper hand and pushes on the losing team to bring it to an end.

Now does that sound anything like a "go to center and atlas facepunch" If you choose to stick to that mindset, that is fine, you will just be missing out on a much more tactically challenging game.

As soon as there was no actual MM, as soon as it was possible this is what MWO became, even with bases which coincidentally actively encourages fast mechs, the majority of groups are doing something like this. A straight TDM does not encourage anything more interesting and deep than what the current mode does, in fact it encourages less by removing at least one motivating element from the equation. But you are entrenched in your 'grass is greener' it was never broken before mindset so you won't listen to us when we tell you we have seen this happen before in TDM and it is not the answer.