2028 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

TitanSeraph, on 13 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

>All ravens should have ECM, or at least almost all
>ECM is not overpowered - keep it the way it is

So you are actually saying that it is balanced to have to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks from any range except 181m to 199m
SRM locks
general targeting info, to the point of seriously inhibiting coordination in PUGs
relegates AMS to almost pointlessness
has no exploding ammo
generates no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15


Are you aware of what you are saying? You are saying that for the tonnage and space cost of an AMS+ton of ammo, or a small laser and a single heatsink, not even a double heatsink, you should get all of those advantages?

I am having trouble taking you seriously, friend.

[Slivinhotsverg]

Here's why I don't think it should just get nerfed. It adds considerably to the variety of the builds and game-play styles. So you need a balanced team now that has snipers, brawlers, LR support etc... Why is this bad?

A couple things. ECM makes you a huge target. I've been in several matches were I was the only ECM and immediately was focus fired into oblivion. I think the power the ECM gives is grand. However I think there needs to be either some limitations in terms of how many per team, higher weight/heat penalty, or global effects (screws your team in radius of effect too).

My personal view on why PGI introduced in such a cheap way is to work the bugs out, see it broadly implemented and to get this large of a reaction. If it was a super heavy, hot item no one would use it and how is that interesting.

[StUffz]

Slivinhotsverg, on 13 December 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

My personal view on why PGI introduced in such a cheap way is to work the bugs out, see it broadly implemented and to get this large of a reaction. If it was a super heavy, hot item no one would use it and how is that interesting.

The other point is because ECM would then be non-canon to BT in terms of technical specification. And it is correct that nobody would want to use it because the los of valuable space and tonnage would hurt the mech instead of giving it benefits.

[Tolkien]

Slivinhotsverg, on 13 December 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Here's why I don't think it should just get nerfed. It adds considerably to the variety of the builds and game-play styles. So you need a balanced team now that has snipers, brawlers, LR support etc... Why is this bad?

A couple things. ECM makes you a huge target. I've been in several matches were I was the only ECM and immediately was focus fired into oblivion. I think the power the ECM gives is grand. However I think there needs to be either some limitations in terms of how many per team, higher weight/heat penalty, or global effects (screws your team in radius of effect too).

My personal view on why PGI introduced in such a cheap way is to work the bugs out, see it broadly implemented and to get this large of a reaction. If it was a super heavy, hot item no one would use it and how is that interesting.

I have to debate you on that - you are asserting that is has provided a larger variety to builds, while I assert that four variants of mechs are now more popular than the K2 catapult was, because only they are capable of mounting the currently too powerful ECM.

Secondly I have to debate you on ECM making you a target - when ECM is working in disrupt mode, I don't believe you can tell exactly which enemy has ECM unless you can really distinguish the chassis variants at a glance.

Re PGI releasing it OP on purpose - I know others have said it before, and I will say it again that items should really be put in slightly weaker than their final form and then gradually buffed up. This is much less disruptive, and while I know the devs said it was supposed to be a game changer, it was more like kicking the card table over. The game is still there, it's just sideways now.

StUffz, on 13 December 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

The other point is because ECM would then be non-canon to BT in terms of technical specification. And it is correct that nobody would want to use it because the los of valuable space and tonnage would hurt the mech instead of giving it benefits.

I agree that if it was canon to BT it would be much less powerful, but I still think it would be useful. Making it heavier would remove it from the light chassis that should have it, I would rather see it toned down to the point where its power is commensurate with how much it weighs and takes up - rip out the other features and make them a separate piece of equipment, probably in the 5-7 ton range.

[ohtochooseaname]

One of the easiest/simplest ways to balance the game around the current implementation of ECM is to make it balance criteria like tonnage: each side needs to have an equal number of ECM capable mechs for the normal queue. Obviously, for 8v8, the circumstances are different and teamwork makes running only mechs with ECM to be a huge disadvantage. This way, at the start of a match, you also know how many ECM's the opponent has and can plan accordingly.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 13 December 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

I have to debate you on that - you are asserting that is has provided a larger variety to builds, while I assert that four variants of mechs are now more popular than the K2 catapult was, because only they are capable of mounting the currently too powerful ECM.

Secondly I have to debate you on ECM making you a target - when ECM is working in disrupt mode, I don't believe you can tell exactly which enemy has ECM unless you can really distinguish the chassis variants at a glance.

Re PGI releasing it OP on purpose - I know others have said it before, and I will say it again that items should really be put in slightly weaker than their final form and then gradually buffed up. This is much less disruptive, and while I know the devs said it was supposed to be a game changer, it was more like kicking the card table over. The game is still there, it's just sideways now.



I agree that if it was canon to BT it would be much less powerful, but I still think it would be useful. Making it heavier would remove it from the light chassis that should have it, I would rather see it toned down to the point where its power is commensurate with how much it weighs and takes up - rip out the other features and make them a separate piece of equipment, probably in the 5-7 ton range.

I think we should just wait and see if ECM is still OP if the dropslot is reduced to 1 for 4vs4 or 2 in 8vs8. If the results differ from what we see then changing ECM is not required - from my point of view how ECM should be working.

[DeaconW]

Slivinhotsverg, on 13 December 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Here's why I don't think it should just get nerfed. It adds considerably to the variety of the builds and game-play styles. So you need a balanced team now that has snipers, brawlers, LR support etc... Why is this bad?

"Variety", I don't think that word means what you think it means. Unless you think it means "four mechs and two playstyles".

Seriously...are we playing the same game? Balanced teams don't work at all. In 4 man PUG matches I run with 3 other ECM lights and we can dominate almost every match. That's 4 commando 2D's and it almost doesn't matter what the other four builds are. The critical factor for win/loss is which team has more ECM mechs. Nothing else seems to matter much. In fact, I have been using horrible piloting skills and taking extreme risks on purpose...yet it appears to have little impact on me with the ECM shield on. In 8v8, if you don't bring an ECM model mech, you are hurting your team right now. Like I said...what is this "variety" you are speaking of? When was the last match you heard BB say "Incoming Missiles" from something other than a trial mech(and that guy probably tried to shoot them from 50m anyway...)...I can almost guarantee that if you were running an ECM mech you don't hear it at all unless you went to counter at an in-opportune time and the other team has the rare LRM guy (who must still be holding out hope) AND he was paying attention ...

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 13 December 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Secondly I have to debate you on ECM making you a target - when ECM is working in disrupt mode, I don't believe you can tell exactly which enemy has ECM unless you can really distinguish the chassis variants at a glance.

He is not quite far away from the truth. Basically ECM is the first to hunt down because without the ECM jamming your fire support team can use LRM from distance or Streak users can user streak effective. From what I know read a lot is that none is much using iron sight very much or they do not know how to target with iron sight correctly.

Since there is no limitation in free geames the result is quite clear who will win the match. Just to justify his point of view that ECM mechs are basically the hunted and not the hunters.

Edited by StUffz, 13 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[DeaconW]

ohtochooseaname, on 13 December 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

One of the easiest/simplest ways to balance the game around the current implementation of ECM is to make it balance criteria like tonnage: each side needs to have an equal number of ECM capable mechs for the normal queue. Obviously, for 8v8, the circumstances are different and teamwork makes running only mechs with ECM to be a huge disadvantage. This way, at the start of a match, you also know how many ECM's the opponent has and can plan accordingly.

Then what? Equal number or Guass cannons? Equal speeds? If we had a true Battle Value system it would be better...but then MW:O ECM would be worth like two Atlases to make it fair...

I've said it before...if you have to introduce artificial constraints on a game item's use in a game DESIGNED FOR CUSTOMIZATION, something is wrong with the item's game balance, not the matchmaker.

[Elkarlo]

I think the biggest Problem in ECM is that is killing around 50% of the Games by making the
Mechwarrior game into a MechRace game.

Around 50% of the PuG games i have entered are Base Races..

And this kills the Fun of beeing a Mechwarrior game.
I made a Suggestion to slow the Base Racers out, without making much Changes to the Basics of ECM.

And i think it would kill lot grief out of the ECM it currently encounters.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/

[DeaconW]

StUffz, on 13 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

He is not quite far away from the truth. Basically ECM is the first to hunt down because without the ECM jamming your fire support team can use LRM from distance or Streak users can user streak effective. From what I know read a lot is that none is much using iron sight very much or they do not know how to target with iron sight correctly.

Since there is no limitation in free geames the result is quite clear who will win the match. Just to justify his point of view that ECM mechs are basically the hunted and not the hunters.

They are both...the trollmando group I am flying with right now are definitely hunters... But we definitely target enemy ECM guys first. It has the max impact for the battlefield.

[DeaconW]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Around 50% of the PuG games i have entered are Base Races..

Welcome to ECMonline.

Quote

I made a Suggestion to slow the Base Racers out, without making much Changes to the Basics of ECM.

And i think it would kill lot grief out of the ECM it currently encounters.

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/

Or instead of this kludge-fix, how about we convert the uberECM we have now to just ECM as it was intended. Treat the disease, not the symptom.

[Corvus Antaka]

TitanSeraph, on 13 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

>All ravens should have ECM, or at least almost all

>ECM is not overpowered - keep it the way it is

How about some reasons WHY ECM is not OP?

Otherwise, I call troll.

[ohtochooseaname]

DeaconW, on 13 December 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Then what? Equal number or Guass cannons? Equal speeds? If we had a true Battle Value system it would be better...but then MW:O ECM would be worth like two Atlases to make it fair...

I've said it before...if you have to introduce artificial constraints on a game item's use in a game DESIGNED FOR CUSTOMIZATION, something is wrong with the item's game balance, not the matchmaker.

It's just balanced numbers of ecm capable variants, not whether they actually have ECM, so it's not based on internal gear. I definitely agree that ECM is unbalanced in its current form, and this "solution" gets around that in such a way that the teams are more balanced, and both teams can expect similar support, which actually makes LRM's and Streaks more viable due to the fact that, if you need someone to counter the other team's ECM, you are more likely to have someone to do it. Regardless, I am frequently the only ECM on the teams that I join these days (like 50%), so it's not nearly as much of an issue as it was when this patch first came out.

[DeaconW]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 13 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

How about some reasons WHY ECM is not OP?

Otherwise, I call troll.

How about we just post this when someone posts "I love ECM!" with no reasons...

[Elkarlo]

DeaconW, on 13 December 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Welcome to ECMonline.



Or instead of this kludge-fix, how about we convert the uberECM we have now to just ECM as it was intended. Treat the disease, not the symptom.

The ECM is intended as a Possibility to reduce the Capability of spotting enemy Mechs.
We are currently using Double Blind TT rules for enemy detection on the MAP, adapting them for ECM correctly will still mean that ECM covered Mech can walk past your nose at 200 Meters without you getting the nice red soft Blip on your Map.
(180M without and 360m with BaP, Double Blind rules)

So the biggest Problem ECM causes the Mechrace online... won't be cured even WHEN deploying TT rules.

So the Kludge-fix.

The Biggest Problem is: No fight, No fun, only "HAHA we had been faster"

And that will kill MWO very fast. Forcing the ECM users into fights will let them show how good they are realy, as ECM Mechs are normaly priority Targets. Of course i would prefer TT rules as they would allow Missle Locks at 180/360 Meters on a ECM Guarded Mech...

But the Biggest Problem for MWO are the ECM Racers

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/

[DeaconW]

ohtochooseaname, on 13 December 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

It's just balanced numbers of ecm capable variants, not whether they actually have ECM, so it's not based on internal gear. I definitely agree that ECM is unbalanced in its current form, and this "solution" gets around that in such a way that the teams are more balanced, and both teams can expect similar support, which actually makes LRM's and Streaks more viable due to the fact that, if you need someone to counter the other team's ECM, you are more likely to have someone to do it. Regardless, I am frequently the only ECM on the teams that I join these days (like 50%), so it's not nearly as much of an issue as it was when this patch first came out.

If you do it that way(match variants, not actual numbers of ECM) your prescription is even LESS likely to be successful. In addition you would still almost completely eliminate the play of other variants of that type of chassis in the game...there would be zero incentive to drive them and there would be peer pressure in every game ala "Man, you brought a Raven 3L with no ECM! You just screwed us!". I know whenever I see an ECM variant with no ECM I immediately think, "What is that person doing?"...right before I circle-Streak him to death...

I agree ECM is less prevalent today than a week ago, but I still see it a lot, definitely not as low as 50%. But that is just my window view. PGI certainly has the data and i hope they are paying attention.

[

Edited by DeaconW, 13 December 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Tolkien]

Elkarlo, on 13 December 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

The ECM is intended as a Possibility to reduce the Capability of spotting enemy Mechs.
We are currently using Double Blind TT rules for enemy detection on the MAP, adapting them for ECM correctly will still mean that ECM covered Mech can walk past your nose at 200 Meters without you getting the nice red soft Blip on your Map.
(180M without and 360m with BaP, Double Blind rules)

So the biggest Problem ECM causes the Mechrace online... won't be cured even WHEN deploying TT rules.

So the Kludge-fix.

The Biggest Problem is: No fight, No fun, only "HAHA we had been faster"

And that will kill MWO very fast. Forcing the ECM users into fights will let them show how good they are realy, as ECM Mechs are normaly priority Targets. Of course i would prefer TT rules as they would allow Missle Locks at 180/360 Meters on a ECM Guarded Mech...

But the Biggest Problem for MWO are the ECM Racers

http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-base-race/

If you look back a few pages you'll see someone posting why what we have now is not actually following any tabletop rules properly - there is no system in tabletop that prevents you from firing LRMs at an enemy mech that you have line of sight to, out to the weapons full range which for clan is a more than a kilometer.

Also, in tabletop, once a friendly mech has LOS to something (and spots it if we have spotting rolls) then it shows up for everyone - remember 'everyone' is every mech controlled by the player standing at the table. He does not have to make his units pretend that only one mech knows an enemy is somewhere - as soon as one of his units spots an enemy he can move his pieces as he sees fit.

For both of the above reasons ECM is doing way more than it was ever supposed to.

[Zenner]

I've been a light pilot since launch, and I wanted to share as many techniques as possible to defeat ECM.

I obviously know that there are many advantages to ECM, but rather than focusing on that I'd rather talk about the mechanisms for balance that are already available. Here is what you can do to counter ECM.

First, TAG. In the next patch it's supposed to get a range buff to 750m. Currently, I run all 3 Raven variants, and at a minimum, each of them has a TAG. I assign it to the 6th weapon group and make a macro to hold down the 6 key for 30 seconds at a time. Thus, any mech I am looking it is also being tagged for any LRMs on my team. If the Mech I'm targeting is an ECM mech I try to stay outside of 180 meters...and unless I get the other team's undivided attention I usually can stay out of range. Ideally, I'm in my 3L and also have ECM...which brings me to...

ECM. The Counter mode is not used effectively by a lot of the people I'm seeing online. If you're in a match with multiple ECM mechs and those mechs are trading fire, ECMs should be changing mode from Disrupt to Counter constantly working to break locks, achieve your own, give intel to your team, bring in LRM support, etc.

Collective targeting. I've seen this mentioned quite a bit, and I'ts a no brainier always attack the biggest threat, most of the time the biggest threat is the largest mech with ECM or any mech with ECM. PUGS listen if you give them a purpose, and you can see a mech equipped with ECM by their Variant the Raven 3L, Commando 2D, Atlas D-DC, and...whichever Cicada variant it is...

With some effective playing and cooperation I can usually come out on top against an approximately equal group with ECM.

The one time I do have a problem, is if the other team has a lot more ECM than we do...plain and simple.

Hope that helps...there is balance...maybe there could be more balanced, and with a TAG boost coming, that should help.

[Elkarlo]

Tolkien, on 13 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

If you look back a few pages you'll see someone posting why what we have now is not actually following any tabletop rules properly - there is no system in tabletop that prevents you from firing LRMs at an enemy mech that you have line of sight to, out to the weapons full range which for clan is a more than a kilometer.

Also, in tabletop, once a friendly mech has LOS to something (and spots it if we have spotting rolls) then it shows up for everyone - remember 'everyone' is every mech controlled by the player standing at the table. He does not have to make his units pretend that only one mech knows an enemy is somewhere - as soon as one of his units spots an enemy he can move his pieces as he sees fit.

For both of the above reasons ECM is doing way more than it was ever supposed to.

I know the Table Top Rules Well, i have them as Paperback and read them and i was reffering to the Double Blind Spotting rules as PGI uses them for Sensor locking ( the 540 Meters are not out of Air, they are in the Double Blind rules, and also how ECM effects it it would merrely reduce the Locking range of a Mech with Standard sensors down to 180 Meters... and a Mech Equipt with BaP down to 360 Meters... ) but they are not at the ECM Rules but at the Double Blind Sensor rules... and there are the ECM and BaP rules and ranges for Double Blind games.
But this are not the common Level 2 Rules but the Advanced Level 3 BT Rulesets.

Nevertheless, it won't cure the ECM Base Race Problem, and that's i am working on. As this Problem is more severe then anything else, i use by myself a LRM boat and have no big issues killing ECM equipt Mechs... but the ECM Base race is simply annoying. And only implemention of 360 Degree MAD sensors would allow to implement ECM correctly,,,

Edited by Elkarlo, 13 December 2012 - 10:46 AM.