114 replies to this topic

[CrazyCatDaddy]

Our lineup is 7 Atlas DC and 1 Raven. We stay in front of our base with the Atlases and send the Raven to scout. Our opponents might ***** and curse us, but in the end they always rush into our Atlases and lose. Have only lost 2 matches so far. And that because 2-3 guys got bugs and couldnt fight.

This is not cheesy, its tactics. If you are simply too stupid not to engange 7 Atlases, then you deserve the loss.

[Orkymedes]

ngl, on 06 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

Our lineup is 7 Atlas DC and 1 Raven. We stay in front of our base with the Atlases and send the Raven to scout. Our opponents might ***** and curse us, but in the end they always rush into our Atlases and lose. Have only lost 2 matches so far. And that because 2-3 guys got bugs and couldnt fight.

This is not cheesy, its tactics. If you are simply too stupid not to engange 7 Atlases, then you deserve the loss.

Yah we fought you guys yesterday. Sorry but i dont see anything here that resemble any kind of tactics. You just stay in your base and wait.
Yah its effective and you always win. But its not fun. Staying in base and waiting kills Role Warfare. You know the pillars MWO is supposed to be build opon? Scouting, Defense, Assault and Command? You just sit in a 100m² area and do nothing. And the problem is that you guys are forcing that type of game to your opponents as well. What would have happened if we didnt try to rush you guys? Would we had a 0:0 after 15minutes?

[Agent of Change]

Orkymedes, on 06 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Yah we fought you guys yesterday. Sorry but i dont see anything here that resemble any kind of tactics. You just stay in your base and wait.
Yah its effective and you always win. But its not fun. Staying in base and waiting kills Role Warfare. You know the pillars MWO is supposed to be build opon? Scouting, Defense, Assault and Command? You just sit in a 100m² area and do nothing. And the problem is that you guys are forcing that type of game to your opponents as well. What would have happened if we didnt try to rush you guys? Would we had a 0:0 after 15minutes?

Well in defense (i feel dirty) of the fatlass brigades (who would certainly run out of breath and fall over if they actually tried to aggress) something else also kills role warfare... Lack of any matchmaker/drop limit/some form of balancing agent. Let's face many that can drop 7 atlases will, and they will sit because there is nothing stopping them. We need this to get fixed it's seems ironic but it's not... a little restriction will actually increase rather than decrease variety.

That said the 7 atlas picnic with the raven servant is easy enough to not lose to, don't go to their base (and if you can kill their raven and then you win).

[CrazyCatDaddy]

Orkymedes, on 06 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Yah we fought you guys yesterday. Sorry but i dont see anything here that resemble any kind of tactics. You just stay in your base and wait.
Yah its effective and you always win. But its not fun. Staying in base and waiting kills Role Warfare. You know the pillars MWO is supposed to be build opon? Scouting, Defense, Assault and Command? You just sit in a 100m² area and do nothing.

I know exactly what you mean. But winning cheap is more fun than losing with good tactics. We know from the start that we win, when we spot more than one Mech that is not an Atlas. Right now tonnage and short range Alpha is everything. Thanks to the Assault Gamemode the biggest Drawback of the Atlas, its speed is completely negligable. Why should we risk a loss? We are winning. And we are winning effectively.

Orkymedes, on 06 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

And the problem is that you guys are forcing that type of game to your opponents as well. What would have happened if we didnt try to rush you guys? Would we had a 0:0 after 15minutes?

Yes then it would have ended a draw. Its still not a loss. Dont blame us. Blame PGI. Many people told them that Assault is useless as a competitive Gamemode. We are just doing the best out of it.

Edited by ngl, 06 December 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[CrazyCatDaddy]

Agent of Change, on 06 December 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well in defense (i feel dirty) of the fatlass brigades (who would certainly run out of breath and fall over if they actually tried to aggress) something else also kills role warfare... Lack of any matchmaker/drop limit/some form of balancing agent. Let's face many that can drop 7 atlases will, and they will sit because there is nothing stopping them. We need this to get fixed it's seems ironic but it's not... a little restriction will actually increase rather than decrease variety. That said the 7 atlas picnic with the raven servant is easy enough to not lose to, don't go to their base (and if you can kill their raven and then you win).

To be honest, no it wont change anything. Droplimits would just make us take other Mechs. If we cant get 7 Atlases, then we will go for 6xSRM6 Catapults, Heavy Gauss builds etc. Tactic stays the same. Stay in base and wait. In Assault Gamemode short range Alpha > all. We dont need to move. Just hide near the base and wait. And we will play this way until there is a better tactic. (and that wont happen with Assault as Gamemode)

[Max Power]

This thread highlights a few of this games major flaws

- only one game mode and it's a base capture. IDK about you, but when I think of MechWarrior, I think of combat, not base capturing. It truly amazes me that they chose base capture as their first game mode. Especially since it's the only game mode.

- the 'community' is mostly immature, self-centered and just plain asinine. Just look at these responses (from both sides of the argument)

Edited by Max Power, 06 December 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Orkymedes]

ngl, on 06 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Stay in base and wait. In Assault Gamemode short range Alpha > all. We dont need to move. Just hide near the base and wait. And we will play this way until there is a better tactic. (and that wont happen with Assault as Gamemode)

And you dont care that you are ruining the game experience for everyone else? You are practically killing 8v8. What happens if everyone fights this way?

[CrazyCatDaddy]

Max Power, on 06 December 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

- only one game mode and it's a base capture. IDK about you, but when I think of MechWarrior, I think of combat, not base capturing. It truly amazes me that they chose base capture as their first game mode. Especially since it's the only game mode.

- the 'community' is mostly immature, self-centered and just plain asinine. Just look at these responses (from both sides of the argument)

I see it as base defense. Defend the base to win.

If im immature because of that and my will to win fights, then that is not my Problem.

@orkymedes:

So id rather ruin my own game experience so other players can have fun?`Sorry that doesnt add up.

[MangoBogadog]

QuantumButler, on 06 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

Hey if you don't like actually playing the game then just say so.

90% of the time we're able to respond to cowardly capping attempts in time, but it's just really annoying and sucks the fun out of the damn

So 90% of the time you have a good fight at your base cap. Meaning your complaining about the 10% of the time the enemy draws you out and uses tactics to beat you.

Sorry but it takes two to tango, if you leave your base unprotected then you get what you deserve if your base capped. If they drew you out then they beat you with a strategy.

I like the game and personally wouldn't complain specifically about someone out strategizing me.

[Bloody10th]

NGL is 100% correct. As long as the game mode is Assault (with the capture victory)--capping is and will always be the fastest+most decisive victory. And thus it should be the main goal, and what your drop is built around defending/accomplishing. Especially with the mod that gives you extra 15% base cap speed bonus.

Yes, this essentially puts any slow mech on strict defense duties or if used on offense, to be used en masse to cover one another from smaller mechs. And also to be forced to go the shortest route between bases to not get counter-capped. And it highly encourages camping.

While that does suck, this game mode does open up the door for guerilla warfare. Considering maps will only get bigger, and teams will only go to 12v12 for a long time--small unit tactics are always going to prevail in Assault mode. I think long range hit and run tactics is probably the only realistic solution to a camping fatlas squad (with them being the biggest possible targets at range), especially if they're dumb enough to fully spec for CQB without mounting atleast one long ranged weapon. I mean if you're defending (and dirt slow)...would you not want to be able to engage as soon as you spot the enemy coming? Surely only so many atlases can fit behind so much cover at their base area.

Gotta wait on TDM if you want forced engagements. Once the maps start getting bigger, all this WW2-esque line warfare BS will go out the window regardless. Never heard of "setting up in the Amoeba defense"? Because that's what it's going to be on a map twice the size of Caustic Valley with 8 man teams.

"Brawlers up front, support out back". Sounds like a mullet to me, which is ****ed to begin with. Have we not learned through multiple wars in history that conventional stand-off forces are mainly countered by guerillas? Unfortunately, role warfare in this game is a joke, has been a joke--and is expected to continue to be a joke.

But yeah, big ups NGL on having a brain dude.

Edited by Bloody10th, 06 December 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[Sevaradan]

lol @ accusing people of "cowardice" in a VIDEO GAME...

[Max Power]

ngl, on 06 December 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

But winning cheap is more fun than losing with good tactics.

That right there is the main problem.

[Enigmos]

FerrolupisXIII, on 05 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

im sorry i just want a good fight, not the same as the pugs. nor did i say anything about leaving because of it. i enjoy a nice hard fight, not lol we capped your base. it annoys me just as much in pug games.

Since you apologize, and apology is appropriate, realize that what a 'fight' is to you is likely different from what a fight is for others, including me.

You appear to want us all to march out like 17th-18th century Ships of the Line, pivot 90 degrees to face one another, and commence volley fire as on a field of honor.

I tend to think you will be waiting in formation for us when we crest a hill, so I'll send my lights and fast mediums to distract or harrass, to upset your order of battle, and then flank you in argent or phalanx, to roll you up any way I can because I presume you are a worthy opponent who is not to be taken lightly.

If I can cap you I will. Count on it. Prepare your defense for it or find any tactical approach you like, but do not come here to protest that we didn't play by your internalized presumptions.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 06 December 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[Agent of Change]

OriginalTibs, on 06 December 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Since you apologize, and apology is appropriate, realize that what a 'fight' is to you is likely different from what a fight is for others, including me.

You appear to want us all to march out like 17th-18th century Ships of the Line, pivot 90 degrees to face one another, and commence volley fire as on a field of honor.

I tend to think you will be waiting in formation for us when we crest a hill, so I'll send my lights and fast mediums to distract or harrass, to upset your order of battle, and then flank you in argent or phalanx, to roll you up any way I can because I presume you are a worthy opponent who is not to be taken lightly.

If I can cap you I will. Count on it. Prepare your defense for it or find any tactical approach you like, but do not come here to protest that we didn't play by your internalized presumptions.

QFT also for tactical sense. Not every one has or wants a hammer as their only tool.

[Lupus Aurelius]

After over a dozen drops, what we saw was:
-9 of the 12 had 2 ECM fast mechs and 6 assaults fit for short range punch. Of those 9, 7 had over 4 Atlas D-DCs!
-7 of the matches were straight out base rush under ECM cover, with no attempt to engage in any kind of tactics.
-4 of those matches had the enemy all crowded around their base under the ECM umbrella.
-1 match there was an actual engagement mid map with some attempt at movement and tactics.
-3 of the matches had an actual spread of mechs from lights to assaults that gave a balance of capabilities.

Add to that that the 8 man premade drops has no balancing mechanism as far as tonnage or composition, and you have a very static type of gameplay developing, where assaults, the Raven and the Cicada are the only things you will find most of the time, This limits the variety of gameplay possible, and also forces play based around a very limited composition and fit.

[Glory in the Highest]

Accusing people of cheese, whining about "unfair" and "balance" rather than doing what it takes to win is the explanation for losing.

Adapt, improve, succeed.

As for ECM, if people would wipe the QQ out of their eyes for a few minutes they'd realize they can physically see 'Mechs and shoot at them with direct fire weaponry...

[Bubba Wilkins]

Group builds and composition will adjust.

So far this one group seems to have found a defensive setup that works for them. Someone else will figure out a counter to it and slaughter them. These things take time to develop.

I'm pretty sure a group with a pair of properly built scouts and some LRM assist could probably pound the hell out of a defensive posture. You can still target and lock outside of the bubble. Scouts just need to learn how. Also to not fire and give away their position.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Glory, on 06 December 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Accusing people of cheese, whining about "unfair" and "balance" rather than doing what it takes to win is the explanation for losing.

Adapt, improve, succeed.

As for ECM, if people would wipe the QQ out of their eyes for a few minutes they'd realize they can physically see 'Mechs and shoot at them with direct fire weaponry...

Wrong. It's a game, something we in theory are suppose to have fun in. Having matches degrade to the point of 1 or 2 basic fits, with 1 or 2 basic strategies, becomes boring, fast. Also, effectively removing a third of the potential fits, missiles, or making it mostly impracticle to use them, and thus any mech that depends heavily on them, such as the Trebuchet and Catapault, does not add diversity and variety to gameplay. It dictates a very limited style of gameplay. So those who are mostly concerned with winning above all else, instead of exciting and dynamic gameplay, will drive it to the point that the only way to "compete" is to "adapt" or "adopt" the same tactics.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 06 December 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[Enigmos]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

After over a dozen drops, what we saw was:
-9 of the 12 had 2 ECM fast mechs and 6 assaults fit for short range punch. Of those 9, 7 had over 4 Atlas D-DCs!
-7 of the matches were straight out base rush under ECM cover, with no attempt to engage in any kind of tactics.
-4 of those matches had the enemy all crowded around their base under the ECM umbrella.
-1 match there was an actual engagement mid map with some attempt at movement and tactics.
-3 of the matches had an actual spread of mechs from lights to assaults that gave a balance of capabilities.

Add to that that the 8 man premade drops has no balancing mechanism as far as tonnage or composition, and you have a very static type of gameplay developing, where assaults, the Raven and the Cicada are the only things you will find most of the time, This limits the variety of gameplay possible, and also forces play based around a very limited composition and fit.

Isn't the game supposed to be ours to play? Aside from the fact that we know phase III will factor drop weight, it is the proper duty for a team to learn to respond to any and all scenarios and possible opposing orders of battle using any conceivable tactic.

If we want to become the best warriors we must accept that to get there we will often get a bloody nose. Your bloody nose lesson was that you have to either defend your cap or take your opponent's sooner. Whatever that takes. Deal.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 06 December 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Feral Goose]

Solution? 1 CAP maps. Put that Cap, that both teams can capture if one teams has 1 or more mechs more then the other team in the Cap, right smack in the middle of the map and see what happens.

or.......

1 Cap map where only one team has a Cap and must defend, while the other team has to capture.

or

of coarse this will happen, Team death match (no Caps) with a shorter timer (so you don't have to try and chase that last jenner for 12 minutes, that is running all over the map.

Edited by Wyld Goose, 06 December 2012 - 09:26 AM.