269 replies to this topic

[Harmatia]

I'd actually like to see a 4 vs 4 PUG only mode option for people playing solo. Again, as an option.

[Carnex]

WTB 12v12 or 16v16!

[Pygar]

Phatel, on 13 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I can tell you that as far as balance. I've seen 8 man light groups destroy 8 man assault lances. Balance is in skilll more than mech.

I saw an 8v8 last night where we totally thwarted an all (or almost all) light mech rush. Good stuff, fun times.

[TruePoindexter]

Ransack, on 13 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

regardless of what dev is working on what, the netcode fixing needs to be a high priority. You put collisions back in and light won't seem so OP anymore, and no one will care about weight. What is wrong with ECM? It's not supposed to be a cloak of invisibility, it shouldn't stack, you have to do more to counter it than you do to activate it. It negates too many more expensive systems, it's cheap, want more? Go look at the ECM feedback thread.

Tolkein sums up nicely the things that a cheap 1.5 ton two crit inexpensive piece of equipment that generates no heat negates.

It's not a cloak of invisibility. You can still shoot at the enemy and see them - you just can't target them. You have to use your eyes and coordination to find your enemy - is it that difficult to do? Those of us who played scouts pre-ECM already had to be able to visually find the enemy and determine their makeup/position to tell our team.

What has changed is that LRM support must now more than ever depend on team support and SSRM boating is no longer as powerful since it may be negated. Direct fire works just as well as it did before.

[3rdworld]

Love these threads.

People think ECM is unbalanced, they are no skill lrm scrubs.

People think LRMs are unbalanced, they are no skill can't into cover scrubs.

People think SSRMs are unbalanced, they are Killed by A1 baddy scrubs

Okay fellas I get it, you are all better than me. But surely you see a problem with a 1.5 ton piece of equipment negating a whole class of weapons.

[Magik0012]

I posted this in a different ecm thread, but I'll stick it here for giggles..



I think ECM should have 3 basic modes and should have some kind of limitation during use..

ECM-Active - basically the current 'Disruption' mode
ECM-Passive - a lower power mode which hides only the ECM mech (scout mode)
ECCM - 'Counter' mode - neutralizes nearby hostile ECM-A/P

Possible limitations:
mech using ECM-A / ECCM can't get missile lock
mech using ECM-A / ECCM has degraded HUD functionality
mech using ECM-A / ECM-P / ECCM can't fire certain types of weapons
or firing some weapon types temporarily drops/disrupts the field
spin-up/down time for re-establishing ECM-A / ECM-P / ECCM field or changing operational mode
mech using ECCM can be seen by hostile radar from 2000+m

Or not. Just my quick n dirty $0.02

[stjobe]

3rdworld, on 13 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

a 1.5 ton piece of equipment negating a whole class of weapons.

Not negating. Stop repeating that lie. It stops LRMs and SSRMs situationally (if the target is under ECM jamming), but it does absolutely nothing to SRMs (which are also missiles, don't you agree?) or against LRMs and SSRMs outside the ECM bubble.

[3rdworld]

stjobe, on 13 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Not negating. Stop repeating that lie. It stops LRMs and SSRMs situationally (if the target is under ECM jamming), but it does absolutely nothing to SRMs (which are also missiles, don't you agree?) or against LRMs and SSRMs outside the ECM bubble.

You cannot get a lock until 200m. So any LRMs are negated save for a 20m window. It isn't a lie, it is the practical application of the ECM vs LRMs.

Remember folks. That piece of equipment with a 180m range, stops you targeting at 1000m

Edited by 3rdworld, 13 December 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

3rdworld, on 13 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

You cannot get a lock until 200m. So any LRMs are negated save for a 20m window. It isn't a lie, it is the practical application of the ECM vs LRMs.

You cannot get a lock against targets inside the 180m bubble of ECM until you close to 200m or someone uses TAG on them which has a range of 450m (soon to be 750m). Further if someone else managed to get them targeted through either of those means you still benefit from that information as long as that person is not within the 180m ECM bubble themselves.

Specifics matter.

[stjobe]

3rdworld, on 13 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

You cannot get a lock until 200m. So any LRMs are negated save for a 20m window. It isn't a lie, it is the practical application of the ECM vs LRMs.

If the target is under ECM. Not all targets are.
And if you don't use TAG to extend the range to 450m (soon 750m) or have a spotter within that range with TAG.
Also, as long as someone gets a lock and can share it, LRMs can still fire on a target 1000m away.

So no, it's not negated, it's reduced situationally.

[3rdworld]

TruePoindexter, on 13 December 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

You cannot get a lock against targets inside the 180m bubble of ECM until you close to 200m or someone uses TAG on them which has a range of 450m (soon to be 750m). Further if someone else managed to get them targeted through either of those means you still benefit from that information as long as that person is not within the 180m ECM bubble themselves.

Specifics matter.

So you have shown that LRMs are completely negated unless you are standing between 200-181m of the target.

Thanks.

[Jessex]

I'm one of the players that gave up after ECM was added, I'm just looking at the forum to see if the inevitable ECM nerf has arrived yet.

I want to play battletech as a shooter. That means staying close to the original game lore. ECM does not do that. It should have zero effect on streaks and no effect on LRM locks if the LRM user has LOS to the target. Blocking indirect fire is more than powerful enough.

So no, I won't be dropping into matches to provide others with a target to shoot at or paying PGI money for anything as long as ECM stays the way it is now.

[3rdworld]

stjobe, on 13 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

If the target is under ECM. Not all targets are.
And if you don't use TAG to extend the range to 450m (soon 750m) or have a spotter within that range with TAG.
Also, as long as someone gets a lock and can share it, LRMs can still fire on a target 1000m away.

So no, it's not negated, it's reduced situationally.

So LRMs are comletely negated unless you bring a friend that is capable of holding TAG on the target for the entire duration of the flight or manages to stay in the 19m window.

You do realize that is like saying .9999999999 isn't 1. It may be true but it is completely arbitrary.

Edited by 3rdworld, 13 December 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

3rdworld, on 13 December 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

So you have shown that LRMs are completely negated unless you are standing between 200-181m of the target.

Thanks.

Me thinks you didn't read what I said. Unless you're saying that you will never equip TAG and never play with teammates in which case yes - ECM has made LRMs useless for the solo hero. Of course solo hero's are useless too so there's that.

LRMs are more amazing now than ever. Between their recent damage buff and how people no longer use cover like they should because of ECM you can really crush a team with some basic coordination.

[Beo Vulf]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 December 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

Wow. This is a post I never thought I would make.

The fact is, that in reality, in use and implementation, ECM is not "Broken". Anymore than any any huge advance in Military Tech is.

I honestly find the Matchmaker to be far more broken than ECM, for 4 man and 8 man, as the lack of any sort of weight balancer really lend toward Min/Maxed very specific, top heavy units, and a total lack of variety. And in 4 man, the inability to block teams from Sync Dropping, means that the guys who can't hack it at 8 man, are often times running 8 mans v PUGs, to re-inflate their egos. 4 mans can imbalance Puggly fights badly enough, 8 man is just ludicrous.

I will address the ECM issue since you feel it is not broken. ECM stands for Electronic Counter Measures the operative word being Electronic. It is in fact and theory only effective against radar, and other forms of electronic detection that is both reality today and in canon. In its current build It not only is effective against electronic detection, but against infared, UV, and sceismic detection also. BAP which is supposed to use all 4 forms of detection has effectively been rendered completely useless. Tag which is a targeting laser has been rendered completely useless. The only counter to ECM is ECM which severly limits the usefullness of the variants of mechs one side can bring into the game thus crippling game play.

I tend to agree with you on your other issues though.

[Ricama]

Phatel, on 13 December 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

But LRMS forcing you to carry AMS and obliterating any kind of midfield game was ok. Streak cats with bap/artemis and 1second locks required such skill that they were also fine. The people upset about ECM are the same people that abused Streaks and boated LRM from 1k meters back. Hell, there is a list on here someplace where the guy listed off SRM/LRM/Artemis/Streaks like they are all not just Missles. As if it nerfed 4 things instead of just making 1 less impressive. Perhaps take ECM off the DC would be balance, but as it's working I have no issues with it. Streaks still function, missles still work and good pilots are having no issues.

Lets take this one sentence at a time.

Midfield game? You must mean wander aimlessly into the open because I had a great midfield game before ECM. Streakcats with Artemus? Do you know anything about how missiles work in this game because it sounds like you're one of the many 'waaaaaaah missiles touched me and I don't like it.' ******** brawlers out there. Nice generalizing, I don't like ECM because I don't see how a 1.5 ton 2 space piece of equipment having 6 useful abilities on AoE can possibly be balanced.
So you want to see ECM off the DC, I guess baby got his killing spree stopped by a big bad mech and wants that nerfed too.

Phatel, on 13 December 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

The forums are not the masses, they have no access to how many people are playing, the volume of upset players or the mood of the general public. They are the 1% upset about something and they think if they scream loud enough that they will look like 99% instead of 1%

No, the forums are not the masses, and neither are the people on TS. ECM is bad not just because it makes me completely immune to missiles for the same resources as AMS, it's because of the effects on people just starting out. I do not expect people just starting out to get 3rd party software and get a group but ECM actively punishes people who don't. How many times do you think a new player is going to get cut off tactically from his team, overwhelmed and destroyed without being able to escape before they quit, taking all their potential money with them?

ECM as implemented is horribly unbalanced and toxic to the game. It packs too many abilities into too small a package and punishes people who are still deciding how much they are willing to devote to the game.

[3rdworld]

TruePoindexter, on 13 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Me thinks you didn't read what I said. Unless you're saying that you will never equip TAG and never play with teammates in which case yes - ECM has made LRMs useless for the solo hero. Of course solo hero's are useless too so there's that.

LRMs are more amazing now than ever. Between their recent damage buff and how people no longer use cover like they should because of ECM you can really crush a team with some basic coordination.

So hold a beam on a target the entire duration of the flight or use teammates to counter a 1.5 ton piece of equipment? Do you see a gap in the difficulty required to equip a ecm and blanket your teammates versus the effort required to actually use LRMS effectively?

TruePoindexter, on 13 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

people no longer use cover like they should because of ECM

What is funny: I doubt you see how this one statement completely undermines your entire premise.

[TruePoindexter]

3rdworld, on 13 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

So hold a beam on a target the entire duration of the flight or use teammates to counter a 1.5 ton piece of equipment? Do you see a gap in the difficulty required to equip a ecm and blanket your teammates versus the effort required to actually use LRMS effectively?



What is funny: I doubt you see how this one statement completely undermines your entire premise.

No offense - but may I ask why you're so defensive/combative? I have no problem with you as a person - you're just wrong.

Yes - hold the beam. Is that hard to do? You do it with lasers already. It's not a matter of difficulty it's a matter of trying. To counter you're argument don't you see how simplistic it is to get a missile lock and fire away at a target not protected by ECM?

By your thinking LRMs work out of the box and therefore the simplest. The initial state.
ECM then required a little more effort since it has to be equipped and you have to keep within range of your teammates for it to be effective. The second state.
Finally TAG requires the most effort since you have equip it, maneuver within range, and then hold it on the target for the LRM's flight time. The third state.

So really the counter to a counter requires more effort than the first counter. Seems like it's working as intended.

Oh and that statement is about how a lot of people are very sloppy players who make blanket statements like LRMs are useless now. Those players get to eat my team's LRMs in the head for their arrogance.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 13 December 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Phatel, on 13 December 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

But LRMS forcing you to carry AMS and obliterating any kind of midfield game was ok. Streak cats with bap/artemis and 1second locks required such skill that they were also fine. The people upset about ECM are the same people that abused Streaks and boated LRM from 1k meters back. Hell, there is a list on here someplace where the guy listed off SRM/LRM/Artemis/Streaks like they are all not just Missles. As if it nerfed 4 things instead of just making 1 less impressive. Perhaps take ECM off the DC would be balance, but as it's working I have no issues with it. Streaks still function, missles still work and good pilots are having no issues.


The forums are not the masses, they have no access to how many people are playing, the volume of upset players or the mood of the general public. They are the 1% upset about something and they think if they scream loud enough that they will look like 99% instead of 1%

Well I just want to throw a quick note here. I Pug constantly, and before this patch, I was seeing a lot of full 8 vs 8 teams in pug, with little to not waiting and a lot of trial mechs. Now what i see is 7vs 8 because it can't seem to find another player. I also now see a longer wait time as it tries to find more pilots before giving up (normally as one team has 6 players and the other has 7 or so). I do admit to not being intimate with the PUG system, so don't know why this is, but i can at least guess that this might be due to less players active. As for the sign of seeing little to no trial mechs, that might be either all the new players got their first mech, or we are getting less new players joining us.

Edit: somehow it double posted...

Edited by Nathan Bloodguard, 13 December 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Spaceghost]

Hey guys, I hate to point out the obvious, but the game still is in beta, meaning everything is open for change and the game has yet to be officially released.

Second, all MMO's have a huge ramp up of players in the beginning of open beta and launch, then the numbers come down and stabilize.

And finally, this game is designed to be a thinking man's FPS. We have grown too used to twitch based FPS shooters where everyone dies in one shot and you respawn to rinse and repeat. This game is chess, not checkers, you must think, you must communicate with your team and you must work as a team to be successful. For these reasons I love this game as I am tired of the Battlefield, Modern Warfare style games.

And as for the casual player, they can go play with their Wii or something more suited to that style of gamer. I want my games complex, that get me thinking and to challenge me and the team I am with, even in PUG matches.