229 replies to this topic

[Fuzzbox]

So many opinions, no one listening to anyone, so little time.

Seems to me those who want a team death match have never played a real war game, there is never just a death match. The closest you come are kids playing last man standing on a pile of snow or dirt.

That said, why not introduce wait until they introduce Solaris, there is the perfect arena for such games.

We are getting a new game mode on Tuesday, I hope it is a blast, but conservatives are always in majority, so I would not be surprised if we are all back at assault in three weeks.

[Joseph Mallan]

Teralitha, on 15 December 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

You seem to think that I dont want you to have your game. While you sir, just flat out refuse to let me have mine. We can have both modes of play. There is ZERO reasons why not. None... zip, zilch. Assault mode and TDM can exist at the same time.... whoa... you didnt think of that did you.... dude... its like.. an epiphany. its like... ben franklin discovering electricty.


If both game modes were in play right now, I will bet dollars to donuts that the assault mode would be empty and everyone would be playing TDM, except you.

You know what the real difference is between base caping and TDM really is? Base caping gets old and stale, TDM never gets old.

i think you misunderstood Me Terra. the Op I quoted stated everyone wants TDM (or something similar). Which is a faulty generalization. I am apathetic towards it. I'll play it if we have it, but I don't WANT it. There is a distinction. And yes TDM does get old... eventually(25 years of playing TT you played every scenario thousands of times!). TDM is primarily how Assault gets played. Your team searches out my team and we duke it out till only one remains. I play that probably 70% of the time I drop. Unless you are talking grand melee, and that too gets tiresome after a while.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Alois Hammer]

Teralitha, on 15 December 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Well you can keep your objective based games, the rest of us want TDM now.

Based on a poll that got deleted, "the rest of us" = 30 or 40 people.

[UraniumOverdose]

Alois Hammer, on 15 December 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Based on a poll that got deleted, "the rest of us" = 30 or 40 people.

No one says YOU have to play TDM. Good lord, why the HELL are people against other game modes? No one says they'd remove the game modes they already have. I hate battletech fiends for this reason.

[nom de guerre]

because so far the proposed game modes are lamer than the current game mode.

[Joseph Mallan]

UraniumOverdose, on 15 December 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Location: Burning hot sphere of pure rage.

Someone needs to relocate before they break a blood vessel!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 December 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[JPsi]

Ok, so we are at the point of seeing the same arguments go in circles.

Going to avidly generalise the arguments and pointedly ignore those revolving around personal attacks.

Theres well, 2 main arguments going on here.

1) People that want TDM vs those that feel its a waste of resources to implement

2) Those that don't mind TDM but don't want it near community warfare Vs those that feel it should be involved Vs those that don't care as long as it gets in somehow.

If there are more substantial arguments than that in here, I've failed to see them.

@Argument 1, really its going to be up to PGI/IGP to decide if its worth it/not worth it to implement. I'd call this argument in at being almost irrelevant to any outcome.

@Argument 2. I've watched this go in circles now for a while, neither of the extremes are going to find themselves agreeing. I can't really add more than what I've already said, TDM should probably be thrown in with Solaris. Not that it should or shouldn't be put in with CW, but that it just fits better into the Solaris Arena type idea than the CW side of things. This should keep nearly all players here happy, with exception being those that desperately want it in community warfare. That being said, just by a feel of what I've seen so far in this forum, those are the minority. (Can't really show evidence for that as theres not even poll options) Its just the path of least resistance that would keep the most players happy.

I could be wrong in what I've said, if anyone can show that I'll happily take it back.

So now that all thats said, is there anything else to argue about that isn't personal attacks or variations on the above?

[dF0X]

Lol at all the "pro" talk. No one is a pro here unless someone else is paying you to play bro.

Also tdm doesn't sound like a good addition for the devs to spend their precious time on to me. Maybe later, and only if part of some arena style thing.

Lastly, you already can play tdm, just watch your base, or is that too hard?

[MustrumRidcully]

I see no reason why Team Death Match shouldn't be an option.

I prefer, however, goal-oriented maps. I am just not happy with what we have. What's wrong with "Destroy the Enemy Base/Convoy" scenarios?

I feel that a lot of PvP games avoid asymmetric objectives (e.g. one side defends, one side attacks). I think those are the most interesting form of game. And I believe they are almost crucial to make Community Warfare believable - I want one side launching assaults on base defenses and being repelled or succeeding, and then required to deal with the aftermath (as the defenders push back to your drop ships, or as you try to defend the conquered area against reinforcements.)
Currently, we're playing canned matches with an unrealistic, symmetrical scenario.

xenoglyph, on 15 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Is it too late to make this thread productive and turn it into an anti-ECM rant?

I'd like to talk about the heat system. Can we do that perhaps?

[Teralitha]

Desrtfox, on 15 December 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Also tdm doesn't sound like a good addition for the devs to spend their precious time on to me. Maybe later, and only if part of some arena style thing.

Just how long do you think it would take to disable the base caps? Really? precious time? like all the time they spent on adding fluff? seriously?

Team death match. Pure and simple. The truest and purist form of mechwarrior possible. Real mechwarrior is not a shooter. Your not some guy that runs around with a gun and can die in 1 hit. Those kinds of TDM games are not even in the same universe to compare.


Like comparing Apples to pizza. Apples are TDM mechwarrior. while pizza may taste better, the apple is good for you.

Edited by Teralitha, 15 December 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[IQwrassler]

The recent trends in Assault mode gameplay have been making me more and more vocal about capping, in-game and out.

I have stated before that game mechanics and rules breed attitudes and playstyles. I believe that too many players are unconcerned with engaging enemy forces and would rather take easy money over battle. Yes, there is room for capture in terms of battlefield strategy, but this can only occur in games where multiple divisions of a team can coordinate simultaneously to achieve a tactical advantage over a divided enemy team. This is, unfortunately, a rare occurrence.

I agree that TDM would be the easiest mode, if any, to newly implement, but I also agree that it seems development resources are currently occupied and are not fueled by magic.

After being in the beta for a few months now, I am seeing the concern over cap races increase over time, and as weapon balance and content addition improve, this is becoming a heightening conflict amongst players. I belong to the group of players that supports TDM as a win/win for the community and future of the game. It can only provide more alternatives for burned out veterans, as well as keeping Assault mode for those who prefer it.

I am not of the doomsday-crying variety and I do not believe that the player base will split and die as a result, just as it will not split and die as a result of Conquest and Dropship being added. TDM certainly is a pure game mode and maintains the pure spirit of battle.

I genuinely and passionately believe that this is a fundamental issue of developing a warrior attitude amongst the player base. It is a titular element of the game, and we are nothing if not warriors here to do battle and fight to the death. Let us strive to preserve that mentality, please.

Apologies for repeating the same thing others have already stated, all over again.

Edited by IQwrassler, 15 December 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[Volume]

I got to page three and just can't take it anymore. So many things wrong with this thread.
1: Clan 'Mechs are irrelevant, I have no idea why they are even being brought up. One Kodiak staying at base is basically like leaving an Atlas or two at base. Then again, lights in this game could probably take on a Kodiak, but I digress.
2: Base-Capping is terrible. It was copy pasted from WoT without the "Taking damage resets cap" and "leaving red square resets cap" functions that makes it almost tolerable in that game. The thoughtless implementation of it in this game is pathetic to me, and embarrassing if I actually had the gall to show this "product" (minimum viable product?) to my friends who are into BT.
3: People saying TDM is brainless CoD-spawn garbage have either never played a real TDM in their lives, or just have no concept of how much tactical decisions are made in TDM. I've played other games where TDM was arguably the highest skill-cap mode due to the amount of map control, teamwork, and positional gameplay that it promotes. Some maps have multiple possibilities of "objectives" where you'd want to hold that position, or have control over that position, and in TDM it's worthwhile, but in Assault mode, the most important one is, of course, your team's square.

That said, I don't think TDM is the kind of game mode that would work well in MWO, but it's often that I either win or lose without firing a shot, or get capped while fighting tooth and nail somewhere else on the map. Even when I break off to disengage, 80% of the time I can't get there in time, and when I do, ECM/Streaks usually either kill me or force me out. It depends on the 'Mech I'm in, but generally speaking, if I'm fast enough to return to the base, I'm not strong enough to solo every enemy who is positioned inside the square. Normally I'd just run around inside the square to counter their cap, but a player can't exactly dodge shots in this game when movement is the way it is and streaks hit 100% of the time. Basically, pillar-humping with the random object (the "base" I guess) in the middle of the square is the only way to prolong the inevitable defeat, or hope that my team gets to the other square in time. Again, running around in circles isn't exactly "fun" to me. The most success I've had is just loading up my Atlas, go to our square, and alt tab to the forums, tabbing in to alpha some Commando now and then, usually winning or losing to no consequence. I do like the fighting to stay alive while my team caps, and sometimes I have exciting mop-up runs, but either way, it's not the kind of gameplay I find acceptable.

Why not CTF? It makes as much sense in canon as this game mode, provides for a ton more strategic options.
Why not TDM? If it would make some people happy, why not have a separate queue? Is it because we don't want to split the playerbase? Because half of the people would be playing NHUA 5 second respawn TDM? Is that really what we're afraid of?

The bottom line is that people who want to play TDM are going to be playing stupidly in Assault, and people who don't want Assault would probably give TDM a try. If we're concerned about plays doing the charge-forward-and-die stuff in TDM, isn't that what's happening in Assault most of the time? Especially since ECM is shrinking the field of battle? Don't people do this in Assault anyway? Especially people trying to actually make C-Bills? Trial 'mechs AFKing, disconnecting, or suiciding are in at least every three matches I play in, and it affects gameplay, hampering the experience for everyone, but that's a different topic. My point is that Assault isn't good, and assault doesn't have some incredibly-deep tactics to it, especially in the current meta. Most of the bad play is not due to the players, but the game itself. I can't hate a player for loading up a 3xSSRM2, 2MedLas Raven 3L, because it's one of the top tier choices. Same with using FAtlas or 6SRM6 A1 Cats or 2x Gauss K2s or whatever it is. The player is expected to give his team the best chance to win - and if that's using a build people don't want to do, or using tactics that aren't engaging (such as base capping), that is why it is done.

I don't think anyone has fun accelerating until full throttle and steering to the red nav point. It's the worst racing game I've ever played. Defense is equally ****, basically AFKing until the other team shows up, as there's no real vantage points that you can't get to within 20 seconds of a match starting, so you just go there and alt tab to the forums until someone shows up, and then it's usually the entire enemy team at once, or a light that you can wreck in one alpha, so it's a moot point.

Honestly I'm surprised that 8-mans aren't win-trading for C-Bills, with just everyone loading up 140KM/H lights and never attacking each other (so no armor repairs), and just capping to get a quick win or quick loss (which gives you more money/hour than a long win, and probably more money than a quick win if you are in combat, due to repairs, etc.)

I'm not going to say the game is bad, or the state of the game is bad, just saying that Assault is a horrid game mode and so many better things could be done with these maps that it truly upsets me to see the game persist like this. Conquest hopefully makes this better, but I pretty much see it ending up like playing out either like a last-man-standing mode, or a mode where three XL320 cicadas will run past your entire team and cap everything and acquire some germanium before you're able to even contest the point. One of the two, depending on how people choose to play it.

If "commander" is supposed to be one of the roles on the battlefield, why do we have game modes that boil down to a couple choke points and optimal paths to run to the enemy base? The lack of depth is due to the game mode, not the maps, not the 'Mechs, not the 'Mech loadouts, but the victory conditions. I don't think anyone can really argue this.

The main question is would TDM add depth? Not really, but it would certainly make the lack of depth more entertaining/engaging to most players if combat is required, rather than optional. I think the discussion should get to "what WILL add depth" and add THAT game mode. Conquest is an obvious option, but that's still not enough of a reason to play this game over MW:LL which has base turrets and combined arms to give the gameplay more variety. I'm very curious to see where they place these capture points, because it will affect the games drastically. Depending on their location, the games might end up being brawls regardless.

I wouldn't mind anything to break up this tedium, including a TDM queue, but people would play Assault regardless for maximum C-Bill/hour from captures, or whatever else plagues this playerbase (again, not their fault, they need the rewards to play the 'Mech they actually *want* to play, even if it will take 100 basecap rushes to get to it, it's still faster than dealing with sub-optimal gear, amirite?)

Assault wouldn't be as bad if the current economy didn't promote avoiding combat. Using Ammo costs you C-Bills taking hits costs you C-bills, and C-bills are what you need to get new weapons or 'Mechs, etc. It would be like if LoL lowered your IP gain per game for actually attacking other champions or taking damage. The trial 'Mechs are exceptions to this rule, for some reason unbeknownst to me, as, again, to use LoL as an example, it would be like you get more IP per game for using free weekly rotation champions instead of ones you own, but don't gain any XP to progress with, and can't use any of the runes or masteries you have with these gimped free choices. I have no idea why MWO has such a backwards system in place, especially since closed beta was nothing like this, but whatever.

Come up with some good, creative game modes that aren't Conquest or MOBA-inspired. Hell you can make CTF work with canon by saying you have to scan a building (current object in middle of square) for information, download it onto your C3 computer, and return it back to your own base. Insert something about jamming all over the planet's surface so you can't relay it via radio or broadcast it, and that's why you need to be in visual range to scan the building, yadda yadda. It would be better than Assault. But then again, what wouldn't be?

TL;DR: We want the game to be fun. Assault sucks, TDM also sucks, but it would probably suck a tiny bit less than Assault, and the base-cap rushers can still play Assault, so no harm done if TDM was added at least temporarily, until we have some real gameplay with objectives, with battles holding meaning with CW and all that. The only possible issues I see is that it's a slippery slope to adding stuff like no-heat-unlimited ammo modes, or 5 sec respawn modes, since, again, "if you don't want to play them, you don't have to" is a valid argument until no one is playing any game mode except the NHUA respawn TDM because everyone else quit since the game modes they want to see aren't in the game.

The tedium is beyond the point of even "playing the game" at this point because it's like "I might as well unlock the 'Mechs and buy some weapons for when CW hits, or some other game modes that are actually worth playing hit, and the only way to do so is by playing this flawed, broken game mode with flawed broken 'Mech loadouts due to flawed, broken mechanics that might be fixed on the 18th but probably won't be."

[Jadel Blade]

Teralitha, on 15 December 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Just how long do you think it would take to disable the base caps? Really? precious time? like all the time they spent on adding fluff? seriously?

Team death match. Pure and simple. The truest and purist form of mechwarrior possible. Real mechwarrior is not a shooter. Your not some guy that runs around with a gun and can die in 1 hit. Those kinds of TDM games are not even in the same universe to compare.


Like comparing Apples to pizza. Apples are TDM mechwarrior. while pizza may taste better, the apple is good for you.

oh TDM is apples? I changed my mind then, Ill stick with pizza for sure.

...

You know what really hurts your argument in my opinion...

All the comments about how TDM is for pros and how the skill level is so much higher etc.

Its absurd. If anything TDM requires less skill because there is no requirement to do anything other than march to the middle and shoot each other.

Also there are no pro players of MWO.. have there ever been pro mechwarrior players? I seriously doubt it.

.....

But once I again, I think its a good idea. More is better. Make it unlimited respawn too. I would much rather play that than the version that just removes the bases and involves wandering around for 15 min trying to find some commando shut down in a crevice. Or even worse looking at other people wandering around because you are dead.

Sure it has no place in BT but who cares?

[Tarman]

Timberpoes, on 15 December 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

The comparisons between BF3 game modes are a moot point.

BF3 has respawns. MWO does not.
BF3 has incredibly polished non-TDM game modes. MWO does not.

BF3's TDM is, simply put, mindless fun. Mindless fun is GOOD. TDM is basically BF3's "CoD Mode" - Run around and shoot people and have fun doing it.

The problem is MWO has no respawns. Assault has instant-lose conditions - Such as a base cap. The whole experience becomes anti-fun after awhile.

In BF3 if you want to constantly be in the action you can do it in nearly EVERY game mode. Between respawns and the ability to spawn on squaddies you're almost never out of the action for more than 20 seconds at a time. In TDM you can be straight back in the action seconds after dying. At this point which game mode you play depends on you and your mood.

In MWO if all you wanna do is run around stompy stompy having a good brawl or firefight you have no options. If you go in and have fun then die, you're treated to anything up to 10 minutes of waiting if you quit or watching others play if you don't. How is that fun?

People want TDM mode because they envision respawns, skirmishes, big battles with 'mechs, fun and little reliance team mates in order to have fun. A game mode that's as fun for the losers as it is for the winners. As fun for premade roflstomp veterans as it is for fresh-out-of-the-water green cadets.

But most of all, people do NOT want to be forced out of the action for 10 minutes on end between matches. That is probably the single most frustrating element of MWO there is and the new game mode will only make it worse if you die early.

This is the heart of the issue, and a lot of other issues with the game imo. There are things in MWO that aren't actually fun even in a grindy way, they're just non-fun things. None of them are really so terrible on their own, but together make the game less fun overall. I could care less about TDM for my own gaming, I think it gets old really fast as a game mode (ROBOT FITE RAAAA :E), but it still should be in the game because burroloads of people DO really like it and durr it's not that hard to let people kill each other, no major coding wizardry needed. (that's being asked for on PGI's We're Hiring page, so that does explain a lot of things >____>)

More modes is really a non-question and should have been a priority from day one, there cannot be too many game modes. If you have a game with 6 modes that are all fun, you don't split the playerbase, you grow it. Plus if there's a choice, when one mode gets stale for you, there's options inside the game instead of playing something else or just dropping it. Even I like TDM once in a while, just not alldayerryday. I just prefer objective-based combat for the kinds of fighting it produces, even if the objectives themselves are ridiculous; can't be any more stupid than stuff real people have really died for.

Edited by Tarman, 15 December 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[vettie]

If you dont like Team Death match, thats fine.


What I would like to see is the current "Assault Mode" be more that BEFORE the timer starts counting down, you must kill or destroy 1/2 the enemy team.

I have far too many matches that were just base races. They went right, we went right guess what? Not a shot fired and both teams just exchanged places. Now my base is 2k meters from where I started but so is theirs. Because 1 team was faster, is it really a win?

Also, i would like to see a mission play type of game (mentioned before) where one team defends a base or base area and the other team has to capture it or destroy it.

Another thing would be to have the 'bases' placed randomly on each side of the map. So you dont know where the base is until you locate it. Right now, we have played these maps so many times we can navigate to them in our sleep, even in an Atlas with a 150 non XL engine...

EDIT: Why can there nto be BOTH types? TDM does NOT have to respawn. 1 game 1 life. Timer runs out, most kills win (prevents the tie from last guy from running and shutting down (he still can, but he still loses). Simple. Maps are already there. Disable the Base Capture. IF you do NOT want to play TDM, then DO NOT play it. I doubt anyone is going to hold your mouse hand in a pair of rusty pliers and squeeze them unti bones begin to crack if you dont select TDM over Assault, but it would be nice to have the choice. Add it to the menu choice at launch, TDM, Assault, or Conquest. No one here is saying everybody has to play TDM or Assault, just chose the one you want. I don't see the issue. You have a game mode you like, why cant I (if tis Assault or TDM doesnt matter my choice, because its MY choice)? Who said it had to be tied into CW? We really dont have very much in the way of CW at this time anyway. Variety is not really a bad thing as far as game types.

Edited by vettie, 15 December 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[Teralitha]

Jadel Blade, on 15 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Its absurd. If anything TDM requires less skill because there is no requirement to do anything other than march to the middle and shoot each other. Im sorry.... do ppl in assault mode not do anything but mindlessly march to the enemy base, and avoid shooting each other if possible? This is better? in TDM, no ppl do not simply march to the middle and shoot. only the true noobules do that... Skilled players/teams do not. But here in assault mode, you cant tell the difference between noobs and good players because they both do the same thing, they focus on the little orange squares...

Also there are no pro players of MWO.. have there ever been pro mechwarrior players? I seriously doubt it. Yes, in MW4 NBT there were several teams I would call... professional. But the game modes and rulesets are what made it possible. SO in a way you are right.... there are no pro players of MWO, because its modes of play and ruleset do not promote high level of skilled play. Sorry PGI, but its true. You guys have no clue what high lvl of skill is in a mechwarrior game. The way your balancing your game proves it.

Edited by Teralitha, 16 December 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[sokitumi]

"Oh? So, the no-respawn servers were always the least populated in every other incarnation of MW?"
"Yeah, we should totally make our game no-respawn only."
"Totally."

[HRR Insanity]

S3dition, on 15 December 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

Keep in mind that Mechwarrior Online and Battletech in general is more than just a generic video game. They were meant to be combat simulators. Despite what many believe, there is more to warfare that simply killing everything that comes your way. It's a waste of money and lives to just stand and shoot in an open field, which is why modern warfare is done with specific objectives in mind. Battletech emphasizes this in every novel and bit of fluff that has ever been published. The entire premise of the clans is making an auction system to minimize asset loss when seizing objectives. Thus, it stands to reason that you will not see TDM or any kind of meat grinder. The devs have announced a "drop ship" mode where you get 4 mechs, but this is a far cry from classic TDM.

I don't want classic TDM. I want No Respawn Team Deathmatch. Two teams drop. One team survives. No capturing, no resources, no crap to muddle the actual combat. Just tactics, strategy, and pilot/gunnery skills.

Quote

Mechwarrior is not that kind of game, and in an effort to be more than "just another shooter", it should remain so.

MechWarrior will never be 'another shooter' because it has 'Mechs and a pace that suits giant walking death machines.

Insanity

[Raidyr]

Conceptually I see nothing wrong with a TDM game mode other than the aforementioned problem of what to do with the powered down Jenner hiding in the corner of the map. One solution would be to just have respawns but I don't know how much of a technical challenge that would be.

[Teralitha]

Raidyr, on 16 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Conceptually I see nothing wrong with a TDM game mode other than the aforementioned problem of what to do with the powered down Jenner hiding in the corner of the map.

I dont have a problem with this. I enjoy a good hunt. And what is BAP for? To find powered down mechs of course....

In the current game, having BAP to search for powered down mechs is a useless feature....

Edited by Teralitha, 16 December 2012 - 02:53 PM.