478 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

JigglyMoobs, on 22 August 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Actually my RS build is a monster, even against other Atlases:

AS7-RS

The reason I think is that all 47 pts of damage are going to the same point, and I can fire 3 consecutive alphas at almost the max DPS before running into the heat limit. After that I can still fire AC/20 and 1 laser at a time for pretty much as long as I want. This makes it possible to drill into the CT of any enemy at a rate that SRMs can't match until they get very very close.

I usually aim for the cockpit which interferes with the enemy's aim.

So, for my particular playing style, I've come to see SRMs as detrimental. It does not do enough damage to the right component to justify the heat penalty, and with seismic I don't usually get surprised by a guy coming around a corner.
Game from 10 min ago on Forest Colony. Fire power not a problem for this mech.

Well, I use Artemis with those SRMs for a reason, and generally only use them when I have a good shot - or to fool a torso twister into thinking that I just alpha'd him, and it's ok to twist back around.

As for the comparative effectiveness of the builds, I'm not saying yours is bad; on the contrary, it's clearly better at medium and long ranges - but mine will win in close combat. I can alpha three times, too - and while my sustained dps is only 7% higher than yours, my max dps exceeds your build by 41%. This is particularly useful when we're in the skirmishing environment (say, half the fights in River City,) or when I find it practical to back out (or keep moving to cover) and break contact while I wait for my team and/or try to flank a little.

It's just a fun build, and very little out there is capable of outslugging it at close range. I had a match where my team followed me till they saw actual danger, then wet themselves and hid behind buildings in frozen city. I died horribly and fast, but still did between 200 and 300 damage - about half of it to the center torso of their atlas. So not only did I crush and core the other Atlas in close combat, I did it with five of his buddies pounding away at me the whole time. That's why I love this build, despite having no long-range firepower. In the end, it's a matter of style and preference, and I recommended the build because I figured it would be fun.

[JigglyMoobs]

Void Angel, on 23 August 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

It's just a fun build, and very little out there is capable of outslugging it at close range. I had a match where my team followed me till they saw actual danger, then wet themselves and hid behind buildings in frozen city. I died horribly and fast, but still did between 200 and 300 damage - about half of it to the center torso of their atlas. So not only did I crush and core the other Atlas in close combat, I did it with five of his buddies pounding away at me the whole time. That's why I love this build, despite having no long-range firepower. In the end, it's a matter of style and preference, and I recommended the build because I figured it would be fun.

It is fun! I'm just in a hide behind a rock and poke people with big blue sticks period.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 23 August 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Void Angel]

Eh, if I was gonna hide behind a rock all the time, I'd play a Stalker. =)

[Void Angel]

Oh, I forgot; I actually subbed out the AC for a Gauss rifle for heat efficiency in that match I was talking about - my current build is this: Hydra. This is another build I recommend; The Gauss is less alpha/weight, but operates at all ranges and is far more compact than the AC/20, which lets me pile in enough ammo to avoid being starved for munitions.

[k0sh]

As a light mech I like to join lone heavy mech to support him but I never get that support when playing on my Atlas DDC. I've noticed I'm always alone even if I have bunch of my team next to me as they will run away when things get hot. I can't run on my Atlas so I'm left there to die and I guess they think "better him than me"
Since I've noticed that I just stay in cover and bite some enemies when I get chance and go full out when my teammates seek cover under my pants.

[JigglyMoobs]

k0sh, on 23 August 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

As a light mech I like to join lone heavy mech to support him but I never get that support when playing on my Atlas DDC. I've noticed I'm always alone even if I have bunch of my team next to me as they will run away when things get hot. I can't run on my Atlas so I'm left there to die and I guess they think "better him than me"
Since I've noticed that I just stay in cover and bite some enemies when I get chance and go full out when my teammates seek cover under my pants.

I find that as an Atlas, it's essential for you to preplan your ingress and egress routes, and select the right terrain to fight on. Otherwise, when things go south you can run out of options quickly, as you have found.

As a ddc atlas I actually like to be behind my team's frontline mechs - eg be the last brawler to engage the enemy team. This allows you to figure out the best point for attack to bring your awesome firepower to bear - so you have to be patient. In the mean time you can position yourself to provide the best ecm cover to your team. Once you engage ppc firing enemies, that coverage is gone for at least 40 seconds.

Conversely, the smaller mech should not so much follow the Atlas as tether to the Atlas, scouting out ahead a bit, mapping out the disposition of nearby enemies, luring them into ambushes by the Atlas, and helping out with lights if they start harassing.

It helps greatly for both mechs to have seismic sensors and you need to constantly check your map both for hidden enemies and to look the disposition of your team.

For the Atlas, because you are so well armored, you have tie to check maps in the middle of fights as you torso twist. Larger engines are also surprisingly helpful for reliable maneuverability over rough terrain and good torso twist.

Finally, for the areas of the maps where people usually fight, it helps to learn to navigate through those areas by walking backwards utilizing your map knowledge and the minimap. This way you will always have your strongest armor and weapons towards the enemy, even as you withdraw. An Atlas facing the enemy team is an intimidating threat. With his back turned, the Atlas turns into the most tempting target on the map.

The last couple of days I've been having a lot of fun playing a Hunchie, but the lighter mechs are a different game than the Atlas. With the Atlas, MWO changes from an action FPS with some strategy, into chess with some action parts thrown in. Instead of movement, you starting thinking about maneuver. Instead of running, you have to make ordered withdraws. Instead of hit and run, you need to seek out advantageous positions from which you can effectively engage, but also effectively disengage.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 24 August 2013 - 12:45 AM.

[Void Angel]

I have to disagree partially on one point: the Atlas should (usually) be among the first to engage - and if they kill you instead of your heavies, you die laughing. The reason is that the Atlas is often the LAST 'mech you should be shooting at, all else being equal.

Consider your and my Atlas builds. Now, look at this Stalker. This is an approximation of one of my drop buddy's loadouts (I don't recall if that particular chassis currently has Artemis.) There's two interrelated things I'd like to point out about it: it dwarfs either of our Atlases in raw firepower... and it uses a slightly higher % of its tonnage on weapons/ammunition. Since toughness increases in a roughly linear fashion with size, both of these points mean that the Stalker is a higher-value target than the Atlas - you're going to eliminate more of our team's damage per point of damage needed to bring the target down. And that Stalker is one of the more lightly-armed builds I've seen. If you instead use this monstrosity, the difference is even more glaring - it's using 41 tons, nearly half its tonnage, to carry weapon systems and their attendant ammunition. You'll find similar results matching up most heavy builds, and even some mediums.

If we want rawr-firepower, a Stalker does that job a lot better than an Atlas. If we want more maneuverability, an Awesome or Victor will fit the bill, with the Highlander doing duty for a mobile heavy platform. What the Atlas does better than anybody else is take a pounding while still dishing out a lot of damage - enough damage that he can punish anyone if he gets ignored. This is why the Atlas really excels in direct combat. It's not that you have to bum rush everyone and hope for the best, or that you can't withdraw if there's a handy bit of cover - though I've done all those things, depending on my judgement of the tactical environment. What makes the Atlas fun and strategic to play is the devil's bargain he forces the enemy to make: ignore him, and pay the price, or focus him down when they'd really benefit from killing his lighter Assault and Heavy escorts first.

This whole relationship between firepower and toughness will matter more once the planned tonnage limits for teams are implemented, but it still matters now. Sure, you might have enough extra tonnage to just power through the enemy indiscriminately once you catch them; but it might be that you're down tonnage - and need to make every shot count. Since you don't know which it is, target prioritization should be a standard practice.

Now, before anyone chimes in with "what ifs," let me point out: I know this is situational; I know you're not going to always run into equal numbers of their team; I know that it depends on their actual weapon loads, too. I know all that {Scrap}. It also bears mentioning that fast 'mech builds don't follow this rule as closely, if at all - a 4P Hunchback, for example, will often be carrying only 8-9 tons of weaponry, though a few will surprise you. It's more of a judgement call with Mediums and Lights: can you deal well enough with their maneuverability/harassment that they should still be prioritized? The general principle still applies, however - you have to make sure that you're taking into account not only the threat that a target presents, but also how difficult it is to take out.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 August 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[Modo44]

Given how many losses overeagerness causes, here is an addendum: Wait for the Atlas before engaging the enemy. I'm sure many Atlas pilots have been there: You try to walk to a good defensive/charging position only to see the team mediums/heavies (and the occasional Pretty Baby or Victor) get slaughtered, because they could not wait 30 seconds for you tor arrive before poking their heads out. You enter a brawl with high-firepower team mates already gone, and that typically ends as expected. I've been that heavy pilot more than once, so here is the carrot: If you wait for the fatties to engage, you will get to do more damage unmolested.

Edited by Modo44, 24 August 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Void Angel, on 24 August 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

I have to disagree partially on one point: the Atlas should (usually) be among the first to engage - and if they kill you instead of your heavies, you die laughing. The reason is that the Atlas is often the LAST 'mech you should be shooting at, all else being equal.
......

This is a great story Void, and the few times it works when your team follows you on a grand charge into the gathered enemy it will bring tears of joy in your eye (I know I've been there). But usually, to me it happens like this:

Seeing my team of hulking killers gathered behind me I stride forth confident in our impending victory, mindful of the tactical tradeoffs so eloquently described in your post. The enemy is going to get a piece of Jiggly's mind tonight, and if he gets taken down, he would have bought valuable time for the team.

10 seconds later I die in a hail of AC, Gauss, PPC, missile and laser fire, a smoking armless torso with smoke pouring out of every orifice. Ha! I laugh to myself, they felt for the Atlas trap! Now I go into spec, expecting fireworks from the rest of my team. Instead, here's something like what I usually see:

The monster stalker that was going to do unbelievable damage is actually shooting 10 feet behind the enemy spider, overheating again and again because our heroic mech pilot is being distracted by the "assets" jiggling up and down on his second computer screen.

The AC/40 Jaeger who was supposed to pop enemy mechs straight in the face is actually running in a bee line into enemy fire because little Timmy the pilot is telling his mom that he needs "FIVE MORE MINUTES" before coming down to dinner.

The phract player from europe is teleporting around with 300 ping while cursing to himself in German.

The only other mech with ECM, the spider, has given up hope and is now running straight for the enemy base to not quite cap.

And the 3 hunchies are now scrambling to find any rock to hide behind.

Meanwhile, of course, the other team is laughing over voice comms, making in jokes about bacon, and generally practicing focus fire just as hundreds of firery LRMs begin rising into the eastern sky from their LRM boats in the second line.

One cannot simply charge into the enemy line in a PUG. Not with 10,000 noobs should you do this.

On the other hand if I'm ever in a mech behind an Atlas piloted by guy name VoidAngel I will remember your post well and follow you faithfully into battle. In other words, with the right team and the right support I will do it. Otherwise look for me behind the nearest rock, or in the midst of the flock, carefully choosing the right moment to engage.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 24 August 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Void Angel]

If you allow yourself to be beaten down by The Stupid, you just make your suffering into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course I've experienced exactly what you describe - but I've also had plenty of matches where enough people did the smart thing that The Stupid didn't matter.

If they're being dumbtastic like that, it's probably going to go poorly for you anyway - and you probably misjudged the time to charge. Talk to your team, try to read them, and warn them when you're going in. It'll help.

[JigglyMoobs]

Void Angel, on 24 August 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

If you allow yourself to be beaten down by The Stupid, you just make your suffering into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course I've experienced exactly what you describe - but I've also had plenty of matches where enough people did the smart thing that The Stupid didn't matter.

If they're being dumbtastic like that, it's probably going to go poorly for you anyway - and you probably misjudged the time to charge. Talk to your team, try to read them, and warn them when you're going in. It'll help.

Yes, so I think the right approach is perhaps not to advocate doing any set thing but instead adopt flexibility and adaptation as core values. Based on judgements regarding the competency of the team, the terrain, the relative dipositions, you can leeroy or hide.

A crucial test for me is if the team will respond to text during fights. If they are responding either verbally or via actions, that's a really good sign that they are paying attention, and makes me much more willing to lead a charge or open an engagement.

Good signs in general IMO:

Team responds to text updates or gives text updates.
Teammate has good movement and knows advantageous terrain.
Teammates are NOT chasing lights and maintaining formation.
Teammates are apparently accurate and tactically savy (torso rotations etc).
Teammates aware of the team and working to maintain good line formation wrt the other team, which you can see on minimap.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 24 August 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Void Angel]

I've stressed adaptability throughout; this is why I tell people to try and read their team - to pick the right time and the right degree of engagement. Following the Fracking Atlas is the best way to cooperate in the chronically uncommunicative environment of the PuG. It not only allows you to alleviate some of the coordination problems, but makes concerted action more intuitive for the team, since they're mostly in the same place and doing the same thing.

That's one of the things that screws stuff up when people scatter out and start sniparing - because they're all in different places, what each person sees (and what that implies tactically for them) is different from what the guys four clicks away see - and so even skilled players will choose to respond to a situation in six different, contradictory ways. Without voice coordination and training (practice,) it's difficult to make use of the superior amount of data a dispersed team can provide (if they're not wetting themselves behind a building somewhere.) Thus, it's better from an information-warfare standpoint (as well as a fire superiority standpoint) to move in a large group, using scouts to find the enemy and report his location(s.)

[JigglyMoobs]

Void Angel, on 24 August 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I've stressed adaptability throughout; this is why I tell people to try and read their team - to pick the right time and the right degree of engagement. Following the Fracking Atlas is the best way to cooperate in the chronically uncommunicative environment of the PuG. It not only allows you to alleviate some of the coordination problems, but makes concerted action more intuitive for the team, since they're mostly in the same place and doing the same thing.

That's one of the things that screws stuff up when people scatter out and start sniparing - because they're all in different places, what each person sees (and what that implies tactically for them) is different from what the guys four clicks away see - and so even skilled players will choose to respond to a situation in six different, contradictory ways. Without voice coordination and training (practice,) it's difficult to make use of the superior amount of data a dispersed team can provide (if they're not wetting themselves behind a building somewhere.) Thus, it's better from an information-warfare standpoint (as well as a fire superiority standpoint) to move in a large group, using scouts to find the enemy and report his location(s.)

Dude, I am completely onboard with Following the Fracking Atlas - even when I'm in another Atlas. It's the leading out front as an Atlas thing that I'm not so sure about.

If I see that teammates practicing "Follow my Fracking Atlas" on me, I may go forth and lead, but I often I feel even better if the team is orbiting my Atlas instead of following.

[Void Angel]

Well, they don't have to literally line up like ducklings - but if we're too hesitant to expose ourselves, we risk creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.

[Quaamik]

Void Angel, on 24 August 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

I have to disagree partially on one point: the Atlas should (usually) be among the first to engage - and if they kill you instead of your heavies, you die laughing. The reason is that the Atlas is often the LAST 'mech you should be shooting at, all else being equal. .........

Coming from a Blackjack pilot, I disagree.

I'm normally running 2 erPPCs, firing one at a time. If I spot an enemy Altlas-DC, they are THE target of choice. 1st shot takes ECM down and lets me lock. From then, as long as I can survive and stay in sight, I can hit them with another PPC every 30 seconds (ECM never gets to come back). As long as my teammates are aware, they can core it with missiles (and anything else they can hit it with, depriving ECM coverage to the opposing team.

I may (and often do) die int he process, but my team wins in the end.

[Quaamik]

One thing I saw last night that left me shaking my head.

2 Atlas on my team (Forest map), one a DC. They headed toward the water and most of the team followed with a scout (ECM) leading out front. The enemy team was no where to be found.

The scout started capping, which drew several heavies and a DC Atlas to respond. About half the team engaged them. It should have been all, but the rest of the team headed off to the cave / tunnel bitching that they would rather lose a fight than win by cap.

Now I agree id rather fight than cap, but capping to draw the enemy to you is a viable strategy. Had they stayed for the response (when the showed, the scout stopped capping) we could have rolled them up without an issue. As it was, we lost half the team and though my team won, it was like 9 - 12.

The moral is, ACT like a team. You don't like the strategy? Suggest a new one. Use your voice. But support the team.

[Navy Sixes]

Lege, on 22 February 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Seriously, if you can't see your team at all times your doing something wrong.

Very true, and yet another reason LRM-mechs have to have a more keen sense of team and situational awareness than others. Since you have to keep line of sight for the entire arc of your salvos, it is important to keep an eye on the map and where the rest of the team is going while you hold your locks. If they are wandering on, you may want to either stop firing and go catch up, or ask them why they're not moving toward the enemy you are shooting at. Maybe they know something you don't...

When I started playing, this happened to me all the time in my cat. I might destroy a target 700m out, then look around and find my team had marched over a click away. By that point they were engaged themselves, and I was totally out of position to support them. So yeah... out on my own in an LRM-based mech, trying to get back to the rest of the unit... aaaand cue the Spiders...

Also wanted to add that I'm really getting tired of following the Atlas/Highlander to their favorite sniping/LRM blind.

[JigglyMoobs]

Tycho von Gagern, on 25 August 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Also wanted to add that I'm really getting tired of following the Atlas/Highlander to their favorite sniping/LRM blind.

I know what you are talking about. I try to avoid this with quick comments at the start of the map asking what the plan yes and telling everyone what I'm planning to do initially.

eg. Gauss/PPC DDC here, going to take the coward's road to that rock in front of the ship and hide.

This is usually more effective if preceded by a friendly greeting which gets people's attention and makes for a happier game!

It doesn't always work but there seems to be a noticeable increase in win ratio.

[JigglyMoobs]

Quaamik, on 25 August 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Coming from a Blackjack pilot, I disagree.

I'm normally running 2 erPPCs, firing one at a time. If I spot an enemy Altlas-DC, they are THE target of choice. 1st shot takes ECM down and lets me lock. From then, as long as I can survive and stay in sight, I can hit them with another PPC every 30 seconds (ECM never gets to come back). As long as my teammates are aware, they can core it with missiles (and anything else they can hit it with, depriving ECM coverage to the opposing team.

I may (and often do) die int he process, but my team wins in the end.

I agree with you Quaamik. The rule of thumb I use is I am always eager to lead a well supported charge to the enemy flank or rear or against unprepared, small groups of enemy opposition, but I am very hesitant to let my Atlas lead a frontal assault into prepared defense or attack against alert fast mechs. In those situations I let the lighter mechs harass, disrupt or draw out the enemy ranks to create pockets of weakness. (Conversely when I play my hunchie I am very agressive in those situations).

Rules of maneuver warfare apply in Mechwarrior as they do in the real world. Find, fix, flank, ambush. No frontal assaults into prepared defenses unless unavoidable.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 25 August 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Void Angel]

Quaamik, on 25 August 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Coming from a Blackjack pilot, I disagree.

I'm normally running 2 erPPCs, firing one at a time. If I spot an enemy Altlas-DC, they are THE target of choice. 1st shot takes ECM down and lets me lock. From then, as long as I can survive and stay in sight, I can hit them with another PPC every 30 seconds (ECM never gets to come back). As long as my teammates are aware, they can core it with missiles (and anything else they can hit it with, depriving ECM coverage to the opposing team.

I may (and often do) die int he process, but my team wins in the end.

There is a reason I used the words "usually," and "often" in the original post, rather than "always," or "invariably." Even in your example scenario, there's a few sticking points which occur to me.

• This only works if the Atlas remains in the open to get cored out by missiles - if it's smart enough to simply retreat and let its escorts suppress you, your 5 dps (before pilot skills) isn't going to do much to a 100-ton war machine by yourself.
  
• It also assumes that your LRM jockeys are, quite frankly, newbies and/or - a reasonable assumption, since most are. A good LRM pilot will get into position to achieve his own locks, rather than waste ammunition on indirect fire.
  
• If your team doesn't have a lot of LRMs (LRMs are in a bad place right now - the only way to be effective is to spend a stupendous amount of tonnage on them and hope that you can burn enough ammunition to make up for their drawbacks) If most of your firepower is direct-fire, your heroic sacrifice may well be meaningless.

There are a few situations where you do indeed want to smash the Atlas first, but you have to have a good reason to ignore the toughness/firepower ratios when you consider your target selection. If you're in a situation where you can beat down either a brawling Atlas (like mine) with a 350 engine, or a stalker who's devoted literally half his tonnage to weapon systems, you want to pick the smaller 'mech to take out first. ECM alone doesn't make enough of a difference in direct combat to skew that consideration - but if you have a lot of LRM boats on your team, it might.

This is the reason I don't advocate cookie cutter responses. There are no easy solutions to even simulated warfare, which is why officers on the real battlefield have a job. The purpose of this thread is to advocate a good basis for tactical teamwork in an environment where communication is difficult, and even sometimes risky. This same difficulty in communication is why it is a bad idea, in general, for pilots to hesitate on the assault. Certainly you need to find the enemy - I draw your attention to Rule Two in the original post. But fixing them in place prior to a flanking maneuver, or setting up an ambush, is problematic because of the lack of coordination.

Trying an ambush is especially risky without voice coms. Your team no longer has their attention focused on their line of march. They're going to stop, and wait, and they'll all be looking around in different directions, thinking different things when it's time to act. This, especially given sensor ranges and scouting. Ambushes tend to be riskier for you than the enemy you're trying to hit - unless you have voice coms and a team that knows each other. This guide isn't about that, however; and given the difficulty in coordination that is the hallmark of the PuG, the best advice is usually, "Keep moving, focus fire, and Follow the Fracking Atlas."