442 replies to this topic

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Marcus Wulf, on 11 January 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Its not about ECM itself but it's effect towards other people game play. Take my caustic valley example, The moment I noticed 4 lights on our team I knew what to expect relayed this to the rest (thankfully) they listened and true enough the ravens came flying through and got roasted.

you see ECM forces people to work together, there are those that just don't want that , and tnat is what the complaints are all about.

Good point there... while eventually the game will have Lone Wolves as a faction, I can honestly say I'm not sure how it's going to pan out having people on a team that are defined as loners in a team-oriented game.

LynxFury, on 11 January 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

You right. People hate having 50+ chassis varients to pick from and only a handful which are truly competitive and told a clear NO by drop commanders in organized drops as compared to at least several dozen that could find a place before ECM hit the field. It also completely trashes the viability of many good chassis in the cue. The might as well not field the Trebuchet for example.


They do reflect that very much in the mech brought to the field, and sharp drop off of medium chassis, which are supposed to be the heart and soul of battletech, and the much more frequent brawls because it's much more difficult to destroy mechs as mid and long range. Not to mention some 250+ pages of commentary from the field to what has to be the most non-community beta team I've been part of through several games.

As far as dropping the viability of non ECm mechs this is BS. And as far as some percieved drop off in medium, while I can attest there may be some merit to this, there's still one over-riding, extremely salient point that you are ignoring.

This.
Is.
Still.
A.
Beta.

Paradigms come and go swiftly. Don't like it? Wait a month or two and PGI is liable to change it for you. Whether or not you like it is up to you.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 11 January 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[Sandslice]

Just gonna weigh in here.

For me personally, the main problems of ECM are:
1. For very low cost to the carrier, it negates 90% of information warfare, and makes info-war gear useless (or, at best, greatly diminished in effect.)
2. It hard-counters three out of four missile-HP systems (LRM, SSRM, Narc,) the last of which has a hard time justifying its existence to begin with.
3. It grants all of its abilities in an AoE; however, other than itself, its designated counter is TAG, a system which:
---Burns an energy hardpoint, lowering the carrier's potential damage
---Must be actively channelled, which requires LoS, to maintain effect
---Is itself countered by ECM if the TAG unit is in the bubble.
4. The negation of LRMs and the nearly uncounterable blocking of non-visual detection creates a tendency toward massed short range combat.
---This mandates the use of larger engines just to have a fast enough torso/arm traverse and turn mode, somewhat limiting variety in construction. (Of course, you could say that of an LRM environment, to try to get out of LoS.)

5. Two of its carriers have a virtually undeniable advantage in light vs. light combat, due to being able to use SSRM at will against non-carriers (which subjects the non-carriers to the "lag shield" while being able to use that shield's counter,) as well as having nearly identical speed caps (which denies disengagement as a tactical option.) The third, while having the speed, cannot exploit the advantage for want of missiles; and the fourth is an Atlas.

6. With respect to the Atlas, its perceived advantage drives people to take it even more than simply because of "lol biggest mech," increasing the likelihood that MM will force an Awesome to be matched against an Atlas.

7. Also with respect to lights, its perceived strength, combined with the lag shield and the speed problem, create bad habits in light pilots such as fancying themselves capable of simply circle dancing anything; they also prevent would-be proper learners from learning, since the ECM heroes will invariably reduce your skirmish tactics to either a circle dance or something resembing a dogfight on the ground, either of which will blind your HUD and likely subject you to LRM fire unless you also have ECM.

Maybe ECM "as is" will be fine when the rest of EW is worked out. Maybe netcode, or engine-rule tweaking, will fix some problems. I just know that in the current meta, ECM is quite centralising; and having one side with and one side without is often a significant factor in outcomes.

[n0e]

The problem with ECM and lights is, it makes every other light useless.

You have to have ecm as a light otherwise you cant even fullfill your scouting role atm.
To level the other two raven variants is a pain in the a**. If you're meeting an L-Raven you're dead. You dont see them, you can't out run them, you are forced to have worse weapons (because of the fact almost every other light on the battlefield has ECM so its pointless to equip streaks yourself).
Your chances are almost nonexistant.

If the ecm variants couldnt equip streaks it would be (more or less) a fair fight. But they can noob-lock you and you cant do anything about it.
Right now, there is no place for lights without ECM.
If I see a Jenner ingame I think to myself "You poor soul, may death be quick and painless."

ECM on Atlas is okish I dont mind that too much. It's still a great benefit but it doesnt make every other assault pointless.

[PPO Kuro]

8 x Atlas D-DC is annoying. One is an easy target. Because it doesn't have any weapon ports on his central torso you can just blast away his left or right torso (depending on weapon layout).

I've had this happen lots of time on my Atlas D-DC. Few days back I had a right torso hit when my armor was gone and it blew out almost all my weapon except my LLaser on my left arm.

[Roumata]

MajorBorris, on 11 January 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

I suspect if one rage quites over 3 lights, video games might not be that persons cup of tea.

Seriously though, squad builds with 3-4 lights are at a serious disadvantage more often than not.

There are far more mitigating circumstances that lead to a team loss.

Im so sorry my bad so ill try to make it more clearly:

they dont ragequit because of getting owned by 3 or 4 mans coordinated attack, they ragequit because they cant fight back the piranhas, supported by lagshield, slow profile and ecm-shield

Edited by Roumata, 11 January 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Roumata, my point still stands. Light packs were a common complaint before ECM, they're really nothing new and no offense, it's pretty pathetic to imagine someone ragequitting over it. If you'd read other posts here you'd have read how light packs, ECM or no, aren't impossible to kill. Far from it, actually.

Sandslice, Most of that post is either repetition of stuff that's been said already, or rather repeated before, OR is somewhat accurate. On the other hand... ECM prevents people from learning? WHAT?! Seriously? Have you NEVER seen an ECM using 'mech die? EVER? Because I gaurantee you they die just fine.

Death in video games is a great teacher, and if people can't learn from THAT, then they don't belong here in the first place.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 11 January 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Tolkien]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 11 January 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Roumata, my point still stands. Light packs were a common complaint before ECM, they're really nothing new and no offense, it's pretty pathetic to imagine someone ragequitting over it. If you'd read other posts here you'd have read how light packs, ECM or no, aren't impossible to kill. Far from it, actually.

Sandslice, Most of that post is either repetition of stuff that's been said already, or rather repeated before, OR is somewhat accurate. On the other hand... ECM prevents people from learning? WHAT?! Seriously? Have you NEVER seen an ECM using 'mech die? EVER? Because I gaurantee you they die just fine.

Death in video games is a great teacher, and if people can't learn from THAT, then they don't belong here in the first place.

Hi there,

I remember jenner pairs being a pain before ECM was introduced, so you're quite right on that.

I have to say that before ECM the fast lights couldn't run out in the open or circle strafe nearly so effectively since guided missiles (LRMs and SSRMs) would force them to hit and run rather than circle strafing out in plain sight as Craven 3Ls and Trollmandos often do now.

Due to the realities of the netcode the old balance was that lights were dangerous but vulnerable to guided missiles and the fraction of direct fire that got through the lag. Now if they have local ECM superiority they are only vulnerable to that fraction of direct fire.

Even if ECM just did what it does in the old tabletop game by knocking out Artemis that would already make them harder to hit with guided missiles, as they can run in, strike and run behind cover before the lock is even complete. Now with the hard countering it's much more dependent on your team having at least N ECMs nearby to even use guided missiles on them.

[Tolkien]

Cik, on 10 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

there is no problem with the ECM atlas, because the atlas does not have a lagshield. even the 3L, which is a bit more OP wouldn't be such a ******* problem IF MY WEAPONS WERE CAPABLE OF HITTING ONE. honestly, there wouldn't be any complaint then because it would not be an immortal battalion-killer as it is now. the other night we had 2 ravens attacking our entire force, over two minutes of fire and they both survived. ludicrous.

Before ECM guided missiles were a good counter to the lag shielded light mechs so they couldn't run out in the open with little fear or circle strafe your teammate in plain sight. The really good light pilots used to hide behind enemy assaults so the LRMs would hit them which was a brilliant bit of piloting, but the SSRMs and LRMs would get them if they didn't hit and run.

Now with ECM superiority a Craven 3L or Trollmando 2D can hit and hit and hit and hit, then maybe run to a new target.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Yes Tolkien. As far as ECM, I know all that and I said I agreed to others who repeated that from others. Does anyone... READ threads anymore? Or have anything... NEW or even ORIGINAL to say?

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 11 January 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[Tolkien]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 11 January 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Yes Tolkien. As far as ECM, I know all that and I said I agreed to others who repeated that from others. Does anyone... READ threads anymore? Or have anything... NEW or even ORIGINAL to say?

I just skimmed the thread up to this point and must have missed that, so sorry for implying you had overlooked it when you hadn't.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Tolkien, on 11 January 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

I just skimmed the thread up to this point and must have missed that, so sorry for implying you had overlooked it when you hadn't.

No worries. I didn't really intend it as an insult, was more rhetorical in nature. This thread's been mostly recursive and is itself just (yet) another dubious spinoff of the ECM feedback thread.

[Inertiaman]

Marcus Wulf, on 11 January 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I remember 4 raven 3L's in Caustic Valley. They all died.

I met a Jewish man who survived the holocaust. So I'm overjoyed to conclude that they all did!

I drive a completely cheesed raven (unwittingly close to Tolkien's Craven albeit with a smaller engine, BAP and AMS) and honestly it's the easiest money and XP you'll ever make. Unless I do something drastically ******** it's a minimum of 500 damage a match.

Don't feel browbeaten by me though, just make one and spend a day or two on it. Better still, get a couple of your mates to do the same and roll them out together. Ensure speed above 100kph and it's godmode with just two tons of ammo. You can take on the heaviest mechs with absolute impunity. You can isolate and core a single mech in 30 seconds whilst basically ignoring fire from him and his friends. Wave firing the ssrms in chain ensures that your target can barely see to shoot back whilst DHS ensures that you can endlessly laser damaged sections with two of your three MLAS without worrying about overheat. If you like, drop the BAP in favour of another DHS and fire all three endlessly!


My Clear Opinions On Why ECM Lights are Screwed In Case You Need Something To Just Disagree With Instead Of Trying The Above

1) No mech with that much utility should also be able to compete with assaults on overall match damage
2) No light mech should be pleased to run round a corner and find two enemy assault mechs.
3) The protection offered by the netcode at high speed is so acute that it informs my play style accordingly.
4) ECM stops ssrm lock. This is probably the main factor that keeps me on your atlases back and not running for the hills.

Tolkien, on 11 January 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Due to the realities of the netcode the old balance was that lights were dangerous but vulnerable to guided missiles and the fraction of direct fire that got through the lag. Now if they have local ECM superiority they are only vulnerable to that fraction of direct fire.

Precisely the case.

Edited by Inertiaman, 11 January 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Pinselborste]

ssrms, lrms, ecm and netcode all Need Fixing.

whats laughable is that pgi is adding another light to the game so it will be even more abuseable.

[Inertiaman]

I'm fairly happy with LRM's really. If I changed anything it would be reducing chance to hit on non artemis LRM very slightly and increasing the effectiveness of AMS. AMS in MWLL worked fine - in so much as a single LAMS could take out 50% of an LRM20. two mechs (or twin LAMS) would entirely destroy that salvo. Some simple tuning of AMS seems the best solution to the LRM effectiveness sans ECM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

I make a comment about recursiveness and who comes in and makes the next absolutely unoriginal recursive post? A guy with Inertia in his name. OH the irony!

[LennStar]

I already wrote it a few times, but it seems it is necessary to do it again:

The Problem is NOT the ECM. It isn't even the lagshield (at least in 1:1), you can adapt to that. The problem are the SSRMs.
The reason why lights like the 6MedLas Jenner always lose against an ECM raven is the SSRM, not the ECM.

Simple math: Raven has 2 SSRM
2SSRM do 10dmg, every 3,5secs = 2,9DPS on torso only (cooled by engine HS alone)
6MedLas do 30dmg, every 4secs = 7,5 DPS

Means you (Jenner) need to do 38% of your max dmg on the enemy torso just to be equal.
That math does not include
a) the raven having more weapons (and cooling capacities for 1 MedLas continously firing)
you cannot fire 6MedLas even on the coldest map indefinitely in the best designed Jenner. Not even 4.

= The rate you have to hit is more like 2/3 of your possible dmg on the torso - and that is an optimistic number
Even the best pilots in good terrain will find that hard to achieve. Against a good pilot who prop. even moves his torso to distribute hits on a hilly terrain? You don't even have to try.

An SSRM light against a non-SSRM light (1:1 without dmg at start) will always win, regardless of skill. And that is the frustrating thing. And the reason why ECM seems overpowered.
It is NOT the ECM that is overpowered. It's SSRM, admitteldy especially combined with ECM (ECM Raven and ECM com springing to mind, right?), because ECM prevents the SSRM-Counter-SSRM or killing them with LRM before they can use the SSRM.

A 3MedLas com would not be a problem in itself. The ECM Cic is only a problem with a skilled pilot who can use the terrain and the ECM to flank enemies and attack LRM boats with that hard hitting UAC5. (I like to play that way Getting over 500dmg in half the games if that succeeds.)

If an SSRM would only do 1,5dmg then lights armed with other weapons could win with skill. And even the infamous Raven duos (or quads) would not be able to go alone against the same number of enemies without a bit of risk.

[Inertiaman]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 11 January 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

I make a comment about recursiveness and who comes in and makes the next absolutely unoriginal recursive post? A guy with Inertia in his name. OH the irony!

Somewhat incredibly I forgot to check with you for authorisation before replying to someone else post. My apologies. It won't happen again.

Edited by Inertiaman, 11 January 2013 - 03:12 AM.

[xVenTriSx]

Im inclined to agree with lenn, but also disagree. i digress on the part of the lagshield on lights. from my perspective, as a light mech favourite i tend to pilot the jenner if im not in my assaults. the problem i see is that when i pilot my jenner no one has a problem hitting me when i have 120-180ms. yet when im firing on any (and i stress 95% f the time ANY) enemy lights, the lil buggers are jittering all over the place. its like the common tactic to win now in a light, is to get an ECM fit, download something in the background, click launch an /iwincuzimomgsupanubwinsauce!

dont get me wrong this isnt a rant, granted ill be annoyed at the time i die to a lagfested streak cake..... but then i pity them, because at the end of the day when the nerfbathammer comes thundering down, and they all go running to forums (which they will) when their precious /Iwinz! machine gets neutered.... im gonna be like, "told you, your nutz were coming off!"

an then when the (c)ravens are all hiding away with their weak ecms..... ill be busy quoting Mr T.... "GET SOME NUTZ"!

[Inertiaman]

If they patch it out tomorrow I've still made about forty times it's cost back in easy money.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Inertiaman, on 11 January 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Somewhat incredibly I forgot to check with you for authorisation before replying to someone else post. My apologies. It won't happen again.

Wasn't intended as an insult. Just a rather amusing coincidence. But by all means, please continue to enlighten people here with stuff that's been nauseatingly repeated even before this thread was made, before this patch, etc.... etc... etc...