284 replies to this topic

[Sparks Murphey]

sladuh, on 24 May 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

As for the unbalanced weapons and mechs... the whole point was a superior enemy that forced the IS to cooperate and step up to the challenge. Taught them how to be resourceful and not so petty... if the clans invade in MWO, i can't wait to be outgunned... victory is all the sweeter when you defeat a superior enemy.

The problem is the FASA decided the only way they could make a superior enemy was if they had unique technology, rather than any of the other factors that could contribute. The Federated Suns kicked the snot out of the Capellan Confederation in the Fourth Succession War, and they did it with the exact same level of tech. The focus there was on how the Davions outmanoeuvred, out-thought and simply outnumbered the Liaos.

The main reason I hate the Clans isn't the Clans themselves, its that the game designers thought the Clans were necessary. And then, having let loose such a balance and sense destroying plot device into their world, they decided that the best way to deal with it was to release another, namely the Battle of Tukayyid, which should not have logically followed. Then Katherine Steiner-Davion was made to eat babies and other dastardly acts to make her the next big bad guy for the FedCom Civil War. Then we had the Word of Blake, who nuked people and brainwashed them, along with somehow managing to pull of a simultaneous screwing of every Inner Sphere capital. And then one-man-army Devlin Stone to fix them...BattleTech's narrative journey went from bad to worse in many cases.

The Clans could have been done well. It would have been awesome to see a faction of honour-dedicated warriors bent on reclaiming the lost Star League, slowly but inexorably pushing their way towards Terra. Instead, we got fascist, genetic bigots who were so overpowered that no one could stop them (oh noes!) until a giant deus ex machina stopped them dead.

It should also be noted that I don't generally have a problem with Clan players, excepting for the fact that the sorts of people who buy into the Clans being a great idea are frequently power-trippers who exult in being "special" because of a personal choice to label themselves as affiliated with a fictional society that would label them scum if it actually existed. There are, of course, plenty of good Clan players out there, but the "Clan" label throws a warning every time.

[William Canavi]

Rejarial Galatan, on 24 May 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

typical fear of the ignorance that comes from being a freeborn. You know not what we bring, you fear us, you fight us. Yield and you will see.

By Olympus, we know perfectly well what you bring. Death, destruction, enslavement, and misery. That's all you've managed to bring us so far. It's perfectly understandable and REASONABLE that we fight you. And yet you call it "ignorance" and decry our efforts to STOP OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILIES AND HOMES FROM BURNING. Kerensky would never have agreed to an Invasion. Or the constant, wanton horror you inflict on us.

[Cifu]

sladuh, on 24 May 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Because some people like a challenge...being the underdog and facing impossible odds....

For time-to-time, yes, i can enjoy that. But the IS are vastly inferior in technology term... well, around for the next 15 years? Ehhh... thanks, but no thanks.

Or you wan't to be play underdog and facing impossibly odds all the time? And watch how the clanners wins most battles, not because they are better players, but because the had the clan tech?

Sorry, but i won't buy that...

[Ramien]

Rejarial Galatan, on 24 May 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

typical fear of the ignorance that comes from being a freeborn. You know not what we bring, you fear us, you fight us. Yield and you will see.

And that quote tells us exactly what you will bring.
The terrible tyranny of the 'trueborn'.
The factory-decanted filling the spots left behind by the nobly bred.
At least the nobles got to have fun passing their genes to the next generation.
You would fit right in with the Great Houses. They care about who their parents were almost as much as Clanners do.

[Vulpesveritas]

Rejarial Galatan, on 24 May 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

I am a born warrior whose genetics hail from great warriors. War is my life, war is my duty, war is what I was BRED for. Meet me in a circle of equals and we will see who walks out alive.

You might be a born warrior, but in the end you are still nothing but a human. Accept your fate as such, and learn to accept others. And should you wish it be the case, I would gladly meet you in a circle of equals, armed with sword or fist, and you still shall find yourself to be the unfortunate individual. For your cause is war, and thus you are a being of death; whereas I am a being of life, and I fight to aid others and to bring a better tomorrow, through whatever means necessary, but seeking peaceful choices above all. Hope you enjoy yourself.

[Rejarial Galatan]

you eat a propaganda movie or something? YOU are the ones who lost your technology in your succession wars, YOUR kind are the ones who fight war upon war, and even fight in urban centers. YOUR kind is wasteful, in how you fight. You think us the bane of your existence? You think us the ones who inflict wanton horror? We fight when we must and who we must, no more, no less. We commit to the fight enough warriors to get the job done. We take the fight away from places where the destruction is limited and the casualty count is low. YOU bring the fights into your cities, NOT us. We pull you away from the urban centers, and you pull us right back in. Take careful stock of who is doing what before you try to accuse us of what YOU are doing.

[DireWolf307]

Aethon, on 24 May 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

Oh, sure, it worked. Temporarily.

FedCom Civil War, St. Ives War (or whatever it was called), Combine-Ghost Bear War, Jihad, and all sorts of smaller conflicts interspersed here and there. They even disbanded the Star League they had just re-created, lol.

I guess it united the IS more than anything else had, but my point was that it was temporary; if the Clans really were nothing more than a tool to unite the IS, one would think it would have worked better than it did.

Those guys were all fighting even when the original Star League was around, it just fully boiled over when Kerensky packed up and left. Sure the Second Star League only lasted a handful of years, but it was certainly more united than the IS had been in several hundred.

But, in the long run, the Houses are going to be the Houses. Fighting with each other is what they do. Once the Clans became a non-issue, all the petty bickering and salt-in-wounds from the previous nearly 300 years and four IS-encompassing major wars comes right back in to focus.

Edited by DireWolf307, 24 May 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Reaver 1 1]

Rejarial Galatan, on 24 May 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Warriors above all else. That simple. If you are not a Warrior, you are beneath us. That simple. The lower castes learn their places, and serve us. We are the shepherds that guide those below us, we protect them, we fight so they do not have to. We are your last best hope.

Is that the prayer clanners say to themselves when they eject? If so I'll try to give them a couple more seconds before I shoot the pilot out of the sky because its kind of long.
Also the rage clanners get at getting teamed up on 4 to one makes me giddy.

[Krubarax]

DireWolf307, on 24 May 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Wait what?

It did unite the Inner Sphere. The Second Star League? Task Force Serpent? There was a whole lot of peace love and understanding among the Houses when the Clans posed a real threat. Obivously, once Smoke Jaguar was obliterated and the rest of the Clans pussed out, it certainly didn't last long and pretty soon the Word of Blake rose up and began the Jihad leading to the Dark Ages, but still, for awhile, the Inner Sphere certainly did unite as best they could.

Marik was forced to cooperate, against their will, because Davion helt the key to curing Joshua Mariks leukemia (and how great that went)
Liao backed out and did not help at all.
Rasalhague was all but annihilated.
Which leaves Kurita and FedCom. You call that uniting the inner Sphere?

Besides, what little unity existed soon broke down anyways.
So yes. Your point? "as best they could" I guess

William Petersen, on 24 May 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Ah look, a pristine case of Clanner delusionalism. You are nothing like your vaunted Star League. The Star League was a free society.

It was deemed neccesary to temporary enforce theese changes, to get rid of nationalism which destroyed the frst exodus. and clearly, it worked

Quote

You enforce a cast system. You ostracize or kill anyone who would dare to speak against your "great founder", your "great society" or your "great father". I'm sure there's more but I'm tired, and that's more than enough damnation to dispel a rational mind of the idea that the Clans are anything like their ancestors.

You judge all clans *** a hwole. Not every clan was as radical as you describe.
The clan traditions and rules that we read about, mostly revolves around the warrior caste, and to some extent scientist.
It is mentioned (in Legend of the Jade Phoenix triology, I believe) that the lower castes rarely notice much from the Warrior caste. They live and operate much as any society in the IS or on earth today as a matter of fact.
It is not so much a master/slave society as many seeme to think.
Warriors do warrior business and do not care for labourers or merchants.
And labourers and merchants do not get involved in warrior stuff either.
They live in villages and/or cities and just go about their life.
Sometimes a planet or city or village is taken from one clan and become sincorporated into another.
To the people, this is harldy noticable.
There is just a different flag on the pole.

[William Canavi]

Rejarial Galatan, on 24 May 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

you eat a propaganda movie or something? YOU are the ones who lost your technology in your succession wars, YOUR kind are the ones who fight war upon war, and even fight in urban centers. YOUR kind is wasteful, in how you fight. You think us the bane of your existence? You think us the ones who inflict wanton horror? We fight when we must and who we must, no more, no less. We commit to the fight enough warriors to get the job done. We take the fight away from places where the destruction is limited and the casualty count is low. YOU bring the fights into your cities, NOT us. We pull you away from the urban centers, and you pull us right back in. Take careful stock of who is doing what before you try to accuse us of what YOU are doing.

You speak of these things as if we control them. As if we have a choice what our lords decide to do. As if we have a choice how a battle plays out. We follow orders. Yes, those orders are oftentimes stupid and can get people killed. But a good Mech Warrior will try to minimize casualties however he or she can.

And as for the SW? Kerensky's fault. You guys left. It was only a matter of time before the Great Houses decided to duke it out. Don't blame the organization, blame the people in charge.

[Riptor]

Quote

I am a born warrior whose genetics hail from great warriors. War is my life, war is my duty, war is what I was BRED for. Meet me in a circle of equals and we will see who walks out alive

No youre not... youre just a mechwarrior geek like everyone else infront of his PC.

Sorry to ruin the illusion.

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

Honestly I think people hate the Clans because they didn't share the Bacon.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Krubarax I think it is more of the fear of what we represent and the fear that what we bring is better for them. Would you not agree quiaff?

[Aethon]

Sparks Murphey, on 24 May 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

It should also be noted that I don't generally have a problem with Clan players, excepting for the fact that the sorts of people who buy into the Clans being a great idea are frequently power-trippers who exult in being "special" because of a personal choice to label themselves as affiliated with a fictional society that would label them scum if it actually existed. There are, of course, plenty of good Clan players out there, but the "Clan" label throws a warning every time.

This, IMHO, is the biggest problem with the Clans. Many TT players dislike the tech, which I can understand...different strokes for different folks, when it comes to techbase/rule choices, but that's why there are different rules/tech available.

In video gaming, lots of players from every faction strap themselves into 'the hottest omnimechs this side of Outreach', pack them with as many CERPPC's and CGauss as possible, and try to one-shot everything in sight. These people focus on smaller mechs, enemies that have been knocked down, etc. In other words, losers/goons.

In TT gaming, you have people from whatever faction that somehow have all Clantech, and put 2 CERPPC on EVERYTHING they bring, Clan XL engines and Clan Endo-Steel/Ferro Fibrous in any chassis ever created, etc. I've even seen people put EI into a 'Clan-made Templar.' It gets really cheesy sometimes, and I can see how it would make one resent Clantech's ever having been added to Battletech.

Like anything, though, if the Clans are played as they were intended, and certain items are not spammed/boated, they balance out just fine.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Riptor, on 24 May 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

No youre not... youre just a mechwarrior geek like everyone else infront of his PC.

Sorry to ruin the illusion.

you cant RP, fine, dont, leave the RP to those of us, who, ya know, enjoy it.

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 May 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Krubarax I think it is more of the fear of what we represent and the fear that what we bring is better for them. Would you not agree quiaff?

Seriously. Stop using that word if you can't use it correctly.

[Vulpesveritas]

Riptor, on 24 May 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

No youre not... youre just a mechwarrior geek like everyone else infront of his PC.

Sorry to ruin the illusion.

Nice job hating on RP.

[DireWolf307]

GB Krubarax, on 24 May 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Marik was forced to cooperate, against their will, because Davion helt the key to curing Joshua Mariks leukemia (and how great that went)
Liao backed out and did not help at all.
Rasalhague was all but annihilated.
Which leaves Kurita and FedCom. You call that uniting the inner Sphere?

Besides, what little unity existed soon broke down anyways.
So yes. Your point? "as best they could" I guess

It was deemed neccesary to temporary enforce theese changes, to get rid of nationalism which destroyed the frst exodus. and clearly, it worked

Like I said, as best as they could.

Despite being a total a-hole, Sun-Tzu was technically First Lord during Task Force Serpent's success. That's about as much involvement as any typical slimy Liao would give, while taking all the credit.

[Rejarial Galatan]

William Canavi, on 24 May 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

You speak of these things as if we control them. As if we have a choice what our lords decide to do. As if we have a choice how a battle plays out. We follow orders. Yes, those orders are oftentimes stupid and can get people killed. But a good Mech Warrior will try to minimize casualties however he or she can.

And as for the SW? Kerensky's fault. You guys left. It was only a matter of time before the Great Houses decided to duke it out. Don't blame the organization, blame the people in charge.

The succession wars were coming with our with out our ancestors being there. Do not blame us for YOUR kinds instability and needless warring.

William Petersen, on 25 May 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Seriously. Stop using that word if you can't use it correctly.

now i know you have no clue about it. Quiaff/Quineg are being used 100% correctly. it is a formal call for an answer of yes or no depending on the application of the AFF or NEG at the end. Do read up before you swallow that foot whole.

[William Canavi]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 May 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

The succession wars were coming with our with out our ancestors being there. Do not blame us for YOUR kinds instability and needless warring.

Fair point. But it was the Clans leaving that really set it off. I suppose we're both to blame, really. In the end, it doesn't matter. We fight for our homes, no matter who we are or where we come from. Nothing is more honorable than that.

Edited by William Canavi, 25 May 2012 - 12:05 AM.