203 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

Henri Schoots, on 30 January 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

BAP works? thought it was a placeholder.

It works, you just wouldn't notice it because not a lot of people bother to use it.

[Shredhead]

Strange. Despite all the QQ, we're doing fine now the netcode is pretty much fixed, even though most of the time we don't even field ECM mechs on our side. We're playing 4 man and 8 man regularly, all you have to do is adapt and overcome. But as it stands, those QQers and whiners around here are just too lazy and want their game dumbed down for them instead of taking on the challenge. I'm sick of it...

[StalaggtIKE]

Shredhead, on 30 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Strange. Despite all the QQ, we're doing fine now the netcode is pretty much fixed, even though most of the time we don't even field ECM mechs on our side. We're playing 4 man and 8 man regularly, all you have to do is adapt and overcome. But as it stands, those QQers and whiners around here are just too lazy and want their game dumbed down for them instead of taking on the challenge. I'm sick of it...

Whining about whiners solves nothing. Instead contribute. Please share your anti-ECM strategies.

[Orzorn]

Shredhead, on 30 January 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Strange. Despite all the QQ, we're doing fine now the netcode is pretty much fixed, even though most of the time we don't even field ECM mechs on our side. We're playing 4 man and 8 man regularly, all you have to do is adapt and overcome. But as it stands, those QQers and whiners around here are just too lazy and want their game dumbed down for them instead of taking on the challenge. I'm sick of it...

Yeah, we did adapt and overcome. We drop LRMs like they were hot rocks and switched to direct firing solutions. Why use a weapon system that ECM directly counters? Why dedicate TAG spotters or use your energy slots for it? If you've got line of sight for TAG, then you've got line of sight for gauss.

ECM makes me sick because it takes a huge part of the game out and replaces it with gimmicks and wet noodle attempts at balance. ECM dumbs down the game.

Its really all you see; people talking about how to get around ECM, how the new light sucks without ECM, how streaks without ECM on your mech are a waste, how LRM boats need to keep one ton available for TAG, etc etc.

The fact of the matter is that ECM is the most powerful item in the game at 1.5 tons, goes on only 5 variants, and yet dominates the metagame and dictates what you should and should not bring.

AMS never did this to LRMs. The worst you had is that your LRM 5s became bad when AMS was around, but LRMs could still be used just fine. ECM? It kills the spotter game. LRM boats just use their own TAG. It effectively kills LRMs as indirect fire weapons, as well, so then why even bring LRMs to the fight and bother with the liability? ECM creates a dangerous interaction with streaks, where lights with ECM can use streaks with impunity, and lights without cannot.

ECM dumbs down the game by restricting the metagame. It does not diversify it.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 January 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[TexAce]

ahem....hint hint...!

TexAss, on 30 January 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Just a thought:

what if the ecm disrupting effect of the PPC is not limited to the mech it's hitting but spreads like....50 meters around it and effects every other mech, too? Not just when hitting the target but also during flight? affecting everything in his flight-path?

Meaning you don't need to hit the super fast 3L with it, just aim at the ground next to him....

it's a freakin lightning bolt, it should pack a punch!

That would be cool...

no one? seriously? So bad? OK, I go home now....

[Roland]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

ECM needs to be nerfed and PGI just need to realize the majority of their player base wants ECM nerfed.

Honestly, since the netcode changes, I don't really see ECM as that big a deal any more.

The biggest problem was the abundance of ECM light mechs who were almost invulnerable due to lag. Now that's no longer an issue, so I don't really see a problem with ECM any more.. The light mechs just die, and the Atlas DC is slow enough that it can't just put ECM anywhere on the field.

Originally, I thought it was worth it to get ECM a chance, but in the past few weeks I finally came around to the view that it was broken... But in the past week, I have seen things turn around.

[KuruptU4Fun]

At least to me, the bigger picture when it comes to countering ECM has to include
collisions and ELO. PPC's will certainly help, and fixing the netcode has made
things wonderfully enjoyable.

PPC's will bring back the use of the Awesome in large numbers. But bringing back
collisions to knock down lights will truly equalize the light ECM challenge we have.

Time has shown that ECM is on the decline anyways, it was just a FOTM for a very
long time. It being OP is debatable and not really something I want to rehash yet
again in this thread.

A Raven 3L and the Cicada 3M will only be able to carry 1 PPC/ER- PPC and then become
a very big cheese build because it can't carry a big enough (or multiple) additional
backup weapon(s) or has to drop the engine size and go really slow for that mech.
The Atlas D-DC will still suffer from being a slow mech and easily countered by Alpha
strikes to the back.

Collisions will be the biggie, since the Commando 2D can boat 3 SSRM's while running ECM
the best way to counter it will be to knock it down. This will separate the men
from the boys when it comes to good pilots. Very few will be able to remain
situationally aware to concentrate on bringing down a mech AND avoiding getting
stomped then suffer concentrated fire.

ELO will filter out the ECM boat squads in 8vs8's, Since those groups have a
tendency to stomp the other teams, their win ratios will just put them with other
ECM boat squads or against others who know how to beat them consistently. Thereby
bringing about the imperfect balance we are all looking for to keep the game fun.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Orzorn]

Roland, on 30 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Honestly, since the netcode changes, I don't really see ECM as that big a deal any more.

The biggest problem was the abundance of ECM light mechs who were almost invulnerable due to lag. Now that's no longer an issue, so I don't really see a problem with ECM any more.. The light mechs just die, and the Atlas DC is slow enough that it can't just put ECM anywhere on the field.

Originally, I thought it was worth it to get ECM a chance, but in the past few weeks I finally came around to the view that it was broken... But in the past week, I have seen things turn around.

At the very base of my disdain for ECM is its restriction of streaks to mechs to have ECM. Try using streaks on any mech without it and you'll suffer. Why take an unreliable weapons system when you could use regular SRMs?

[Kylere]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

that means theyre lowering its heat by 1 lol

I will take it!

[Shredhead]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Whining about whiners solves nothing. Instead contribute. Please share your anti-ECM strategies.

Alright, why not. The key to success is speed and the good old "know your foe". People have to get away from static defensive tactics to a more flexible, mobile kind of warfare. We are hard and fast hitting brawlers, since we founded our unit in closed beta. The goal is to disrupt and carve into the enemy's positions while he is still organizing and distracted. That's our preferred tactic. If we play it defensive, we use an anvil and hammer tactic, letting our slow and well armoured boys take the brunt of the onrushing enemy, while our fast elements take a flank and disrupt the enemy mob from within.
The last piece of the puzzle is to target enemy ECM mechs first. That sounds simple, but I get the impression most of the complainers don't even try this. In 4 man games you can "use" the PuGs to play the anvil. If you PuG only, try and tell your fellow PuGs at the start to always prioritize ECM mechs. It all boils down to effective communication, and there's no excuse to be ineffective when you are in a unit or a TS PuG. More to come down there:

Orzorn, on 30 January 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Yeah, we did adapt and overcome. We drop LRMs like they were hot rocks and switched to direct firing solutions. Why use a weapon system that ECM directly counters? Why dedicate TAG spotters or use your energy slots for it? If you've got line of sight for TAG, then you've got line of sight for gauss.

ECM makes me sick because it takes a huge part of the game out and replaces it with gimmicks and wet noodle attempts at balance. ECM dumbs down the game.

Sorry, but I think you are over exaggerating a "glorious" past that never really existed. We were laughing at 8 man premades who fielded LRM boats already back in closed beta, because they were so easily avoided and bereft their unit of an effective machine to stop us. You could always, as long as I am playing MWO, avoid being seen and shot at by LRMs, on any map.
On the contrary, ECM is making people stupid, letting them think they can walk around in an Atlas through open field unpunished. TAG and long range direct fire weapons see to it they regret their decisions soon. To sum it up, boating LRMs was always stupid, as was running in the open. Nothing has really changed, except you have to use heat vision more regularly to spot the enemy.

[Orzorn]

Shredhead, on 30 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

You could always, as long as I am playing MWO, avoid being seen and shot at by LRMs, on any map.
On the contrary, ECM is making people stupid, letting them think they can walk around in an Atlas through open field unpunished.

You got me there.

Its pretty funny to watch the D-DC rush and then have them get picked apart.

Quote

TAG and long range direct fire weapons see to it they regret their decisions soon. To sum it up, boating LRMs was always stupid, as was running in the open. Nothing has really changed, except you have to use heat vision more regularly to spot the enemy.

The thing that changes is you no longer get indirect fire support, as well as streaks being mostly exclusive to ECM users (especially in 8 mans), because if your team doesn't want to bring a lot of ECM, you aren't going to get your streaks to work very well. I've tried several times to use streaks again on my non-ECM mechs, and it always ends up with me not being able to lock them for the entire match. Not even PPCs are going to help ECM stacking in that regard.

So really, that's my problem with ECM. It doesn't break the game, no, I can play it just fine. Its the effects it has on weapon usage and the metagame that I don't like. Indirect fire used to exist, and it used to have a place, but these days its very, very unlikely you'll see indirect fire in a match.

[xRatas]

Well, it is a step to right direction anyway. PPCs get better and ECM gets worse. Maybe not the most efficient way of fixing things, but small fix is better than no fix, right?

[Novawrecker]

Orzorn, on 30 January 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Why take an unreliable weapons system when you could use regular SRMs?

And who said this is not already happening?

[Orzorn]

Novawrecker, on 30 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

And who said this is not already happening?

Well, it was a rhetorical question. Nobody in my merc corp takes LRMs anymore, we just use ballistics or long range energy builds, because nobody wants to fight a shotgun D-DC on fair terms. Same thing with SSRMs. At least you can fire those at a Raven 3L.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 January 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Shredhead]

Orzorn, on 30 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

You got me there.

Its pretty funny to watch the D-DC rush and then have them get picked apart.


The thing that changes is you no longer get indirect fire support, as well as streaks being mostly exclusive to ECM users (especially in 8 mans), because if your team doesn't want to bring a lot of ECM, you aren't going to get your streaks to work very well. I've tried several times to use streaks again on my non-ECM mechs, and it always ends up with me not being able to lock them for the entire match. Not even PPCs are going to help ECM stacking in that regard.

So really, that's my problem with ECM. It doesn't break the game, no, I can play it just fine. Its the effects it has on weapon usage and the metagame that I don't like. Indirect fire used to exist, and it used to have a place, but these days its very, very unlikely you'll see indirect fire in a match.

I'm with you regarding streaks, they should at least let them be dumb fired when jammed, so you don't feel completely useless if you take 2 of them with you.

[DocBach]

With the TAG buff, how often do you see light 'Mechs employing it to spot for LRM boats? 9/10 times I see an LRM 'Mech standing in the open under an ECM umbrella of its own lasing its own targets with TAG. TAG range boosts, and the way LRM boats now play in a post-ECM environment, have made the individual spotter obsolete, as light 'Mechs are too busy trying to streak everything to death.

[Jacmac]

Solis Obscuri, on 29 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

A thought occurs to me - if a PPC hit only disables the ECM in one enemy 'mech, isn't that just an incentive to bring more ECM 'mechs for redundancy?

Exactly this debate in my unit. Lots of people are excited about the prospect of Advanced Sensor Range and PPCs knocking ECM down, but when you look closely at how ECM is used in 8-mans, it may very well drive teams into going all ECM or adding more than they did before.

The question I had is will these changes bring LRMs back into 8-mans? I'm not sure. If the enemy team has 6 ECM mechs, Advanced Sensor Range and PPCs doesn't seem like enough to risk drop weight on missiles that might work during a fraction of the match.

Edited by Jacmac, 30 January 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Shredhead, on 30 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Alright, why not. The key to success is speed and the good old "know your foe". People have to get away from static defensive tactics to a more flexible, mobile kind of warfare. We are hard and fast hitting brawlers, since we founded our unit in closed beta. The goal is to disrupt and carve into the enemy's positions while he is still organizing and distracted. That's our preferred tactic. If we play it defensive, we use an anvil and hammer tactic, letting our slow and well armoured boys take the brunt of the onrushing enemy, while our fast elements take a flank and disrupt the enemy mob from within.

The last piece of the puzzle is to target enemy ECM mechs first. That sounds simple, but I get the impression most of the complainers don't even try this. In 4 man games you can "use" the PuGs to play the anvil. If you PuG only, try and tell your fellow PuGs at the start to always prioritize ECM mechs. It all boils down to effective communication, and there's no excuse to be ineffective when you are in a unit or a TS PuG. More to come down there:

Thank you for replying. I find that most ECM counter tactics basically boils down to one thing: out playing the foe. Most people describe the perfect ECM counter from the stand point that the ECM user will make stupid mistakes, like rushing in or becoming disorganized. Perhaps this is the typical scenario for you and your unit, you sound like a pretty organized bunch. However, if the ECM user plays at an equal or better skill level than you, you shall be beaten. Due to his superior tech. The truth is there is no counter to ECM. It breaks missile locks, denies damage info to enemies and disrupt minimap. This is not so much an issue for someone that plays with a regular group over TS. Yet for a weekend pugger, this is devastating. Simple organized attacks become harder to orchestrate minus call letters, damage info and location of friends and foe.

Quote

Sorry, but I think you are over exaggerating a "glorious" past that never really existed. We were laughing at 8 man premades who fielded LRM boats already back in closed beta, because they were so easily avoided and bereft their unit of an effective machine to stop us. You could always, as long as I am playing MWO, avoid being seen and shot at by LRMs, on any map.

On the contrary, ECM is making people stupid, letting them think they can walk around in an Atlas through open field unpunished. TAG and long range direct fire weapons see to it they regret their decisions soon. To sum it up, boating LRMs was always stupid, as was running in the open. Nothing has really changed, except you have to use heat vision more regularly to spot the enemy.

I completely agree with you here. LRM was simply a support tool for disrupting snipers and killing newbs. It was marginally useful at best; had limited usefulness on Caustic Valley. Which is why I hate the fact ECM hard counters it. As you said ECM gives people a false sense of security, thus resulting in stupid mistakes. Also facing ECM causes equally a lot of mistakes. For instance a teammate believes it is clear over the ridge due to sensors being jammed by ECM, only to run into an ambush. I enjoy a challenge, however the increase of stupid maneuvers makes the game less rewarding and boring. I find this to be conducive to the overall enjoyment of the game. ECM effects 4/8 man drops and pugs disproportionately. An organized team using TS are able to shrug off most of ECM affects, while pugs must rely on instinct and a lot of luck.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 January 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[dal10]

Sarda, on 29 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Are you kidding me? What is this going to do vs lights with ecm. Please, show me the PPC Wizard that can hit a small *** mech at 500m - off running serpentine at break neck speed.

i can

[Corvus Antaka]

Jacmac, on 30 January 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Exactly this debate in my unit. Lots of people are excited about the prospect of Advanced Sensor Range and PPCs knocking ECM down, but when you look closely at how ECM is used in 8-mans, it may very well drive teams into going all ECM or adding more than they did before.

The question I had is will these changes bring LRMs back into 8-mans? I'm not sure. If the enemy team has 6 ECM mechs, Advanced Sensor Range and PPCs doesn't seem like enough to risk drop weight on missiles that might work during a fraction of the match.

Yup.

If BAP brings radar detections and lock back at 750 unless your inside the 180m bubble, ok. Otherwise ECM still needs fixing along the lines of "if on disrupt, your detectable at 750m due to high signal strength, if on counter, you cut detection range to 250m, but you aren't disrupting anything"

Right now it is hard to see the ECM problem outside of 8 mans. But as the game wears on and hero mechs fall off and wins become the #1 objective, the whole community should shift to ECM due to the inherint power advantages it gives, and while right now lots of nubs are grinding stuff in hero dragons, etc, as time wears on seeing 3-4 ECM mechs per team should be the norm and LRM fall off even more.

There was no LRM problem before ECM, but at least we had radar to play with. Now, the game remains counterstrike/CoD where indirect fire is worthless, and poptarting from behind buildings and back into cover with a hard hitting alpha strike is the best strategy.

For a scout to rush into an ECM field and attempt to TAG something is insane, a deathwish, and since ECM nullifies NARC that doesn't help either, I suppose a top tier Jenner could run 1 PPC, rush into an ECM group of 8 men and then disable all their ECM with crack PPC shots, but at that point the whole team might as well rush, which I do believe gives us the same gameplay as before these fixes.

Again, it is important, this is based on 8v8 gameplay, not pubbing or 4 man rolling. 8 man showcases where the minmax game is going, and eventually the pubs will get there too.