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Regarding Abusive Builds....


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#161 zrap

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostKKillian, on 04 February 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

How come noone bitchs about my quad ppc k2? Oh how I enjoy one-shotting lights across the map. Teach those little boogers to stop movin!

Anyway in a military situation if an A1 6x6 was spotted in the field any team worth its salt would smoke it in seconds, LONG before it could get anywhere near fire range. This is speaking from experience, any premade sees me im focused meat. The thing is absolutely useless vs any type of organized team whatsoever. Vs a pug yea you can have a field day but, one cata, hell, even three catas, trying to rush or be sneaky is quite obvious. MATCHMAKEING, now thats the word of the day.

Know your enemy. -Sun Tzu


This... but whiner's gonna whine, always been that way. But keep up threads like those. Unlike the streakcat the SRM36 Cat actually takes some skill to play and has some issues (heat, big ears, range etc.). There's other stuff that needs a fix in this game (starts with E :D ).

Had quite a laugh when yesterday an srm36 cat managed to shut down 100m in front of my 4PPC+Gauss Atlas while trying to kill me (with obvious outcome).

#162 ZelenKai

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:29 PM

If you are a light mech player, there is nothing to fear from the SRM Catapult and AC20 builds... you move at 150kph which make these weapons incredibly hard to connect with as long as you aren't stupid enough to run straight at them. The people complaining about these builds are mostly going to be the people in larger, slower mechs.

I fear ECM SSRM Ravens a lot more than a 6 SRM6 Cat. Let's hope they put in some effective counters to ECM.

#163 Segoris

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

View Postzrap, on 04 February 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

There's other stuff that needs a fix in this game (starts with E :D ).


Agreeing with the rest of your post, but you covered this part already with this:

View Postzrap, on 04 February 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

whiner's gonna whine, always been that way.

:D

View PostVoid Angel, on 04 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

As far as your SL Hunchback... That's kind of a sub-par build. Sure, you can sustain the heat, but it's much lower dps and alpha strike damage compared to a medium laser. If you're going to boat (and with the 4P, you don't have a choice :) ) you should use medium lasers.


But that would mean, instead of crying, some of these people would have to adapt and try different things out, and the feeling of self-entitlement is misleading them :)


In seriousness - The A1 has some pretty big weaknesses to go along with its ease of use. Put those same pilots consistently scoring 900+ in Cats in a different mech and the results will not be much different. Regardless of the mech, this group of pilots will still use terrain, pick targets, and pick when to engage in fights wisely when able. It has already been mentioned that without the srm6 build, the cat is pretty damn useless with ECM being around, and I think that will continue for the A1 even after the proposed ECM changes. What could be done, is
-increasing the spread of SRM (I'd test it by 4-7% more spread). This makes artemis more tempting, since right now I could not give a crap about artemis as it is too heavy and slot consuming.
-Or limit the speed engines are capable of in the Cat without reducing the size limit (keeps the same weight of engines that way but it is a direct nerf, basically bring the speed down to the one 3 below it, so the 315 engine would cap around 82 - also requires more weight to go the same speed but now with reduces how much ammo and/or jumpjets one would carry).

These are small changes that would go a long way. Though, the SRM spread change would be bad for a number of other mechs, and I would not suggest it, while the engine one would have a ripple effect, possibly encouraging more SRM4s to be able to keep ammo/jumpjets and a slightly larger engine while reducing damage


That said - whoever made the video seems to have just put together a killshot clip (I read there is actual footage at the end, but being at work and getting bored real quickly means I did not make it that far). That does not tell much and could be done with any mech. There were some screenshots though, showing 1k+ damage even when losing on an awful team. That is more telling imo since that will be more common on a Splatcat, but it is still possible to do with stalkers or atlases - again bringing the attention to pilot ability. They will probably also agree that just having multiple people over 100, let alone 200, when they did that screenshot is almost a luxury since there are times that will happen with maybe one "teammate" over 100 damage, I know I've had plenty of runs like that.
Whoever posted the screenshot of their "first" run in an A1 - doesn't really mean a damn thing. I've put up close to those numbers a couple days ago on my first run in a Centurion AL. It is not as consistent, nor as easy as the A1, but it is possible and a lot comes down to the teams.
Someone also mentioned a comment along the lines of "imagine what a good A1 pilot can do in a 4man" - this is a double edged sword. Your survivability goes up, but so does the difficulty in doing the 1k+ damage consistently as you have more competition from better players in your 4-man. You can still do it, but it is less likely to be consistent if running with other good players as they'll be doing the same thing you are. 8 fish can only feed so many sharks :)

Edited by Segoris, 04 February 2013 - 02:43 PM.


#164 Void Angel

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

View PostNRP, on 04 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Lights with MLs and a seemingly infinite supply of streaks are a problem. The only option I have to effectively combat lights are streaks, but if I carry them I am at a disadvantage for my intended role (killing other assaults) and if the light has ECM streaks are totally useless.

So I do whatever I can to deal with them (leg them, timed alphas, chain fire lasers, back up while turning, back up to a wall, etc). None if it is very effective in reality, especially when I'm the last man standing and pretty beat up from wrecking your Atlases and Stalkers. So while it may take you a minute to dispatch me, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you will.

I have no idea what you're talking about - I maul lights with both my Hunchback and my Atlas. They're annoying if my team doesn't adequately support me, but I don't really have much trouble dealing with them.

#165 JDH4mm3r

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:01 PM

yes I agree: A flock of ravens > AC20 cat

range > AC20cat

But, it's your loss if you allow it to get close to you.

SO yes there is always a config that can counter it. Not only that, it all depends on your own skill, ability to hold your aim.

I've noticed a lot of people use keyboard only... that is not the way to go... not usually because it makes for a lot of lol and facepalming when watching someone try and kill that way.

Me...shrugs... never used a joystick for any mech games at all.... since MW2. Keyboard and mouse all the way.

Believe me, I was once a n00b, just like everyone else, had to learn by playing the best in order to get better.

If you encounter an AC20 cat, your best bet is to call it out and take it out first (as a team) before it gets u and your team.

#166 Tombstoner

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

Watched about 70% of the movie and all it shows is one shots on heavily damaged targets or small mech standing still or easy shots. later it shows how 2-3 alpha strikes kill to easy. trust me PGI knows what they did when they chose skill based targeting over random hit location(TT) or cone of fire. 6x srm6 is working as intended. i cant wait for all the QQ over 4x ultra 20's being OP.

#167 Ryebear

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostJakob Knight, on 04 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Stuff


Center Torso max armors are 98 armor (Cat) vs 100 (Awsome) vs 122 (Stalker).

That isn't much of a difference until you get to the Stalker and consider that a Cat can protect their rear end (while facing you with their guns) in ways the other two cant as well as a 30KPH speed differential.

And before you start calling me myopic, take a step back and consider this; aside from Raven-3Ls/ECM as a whole and maybe Jenners back when you couldnt hit lights, every 'abusive' build was built on a Catapult. Please consider that there *may* be a problem with the chassis and it isn't mere coincidence that there are this many successive complaints about various flavour of the moment Catapult builds.

#168 Escef

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:29 PM

View PostZelenKai, on 04 February 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

If you are a light mech player, there is nothing to fear from the SRM Catapult and AC20 builds... you move at 150kph which make these weapons incredibly hard to connect with as long as you aren't stupid enough to run straight at them.


I came around a corner the other day and saw a Commando harassing a team mate. I started closing in with my SRMcat, he saw me and started to run. Cross hairs dead center, maybe 100-150m range, Alpha. He lost both arms and side torsos, but lived to run away.

Yesterday I was fortunate enough to catch a Spider when he got stuck on a building. I Alpha'd him at less than 50m. He didn't survive.

Those were exceptions. A light that is aware of an SRMcat and doesn't panic should be safe, it's hard to nail them with anything other than a luckshot.

Edited by Escef, 04 February 2013 - 10:29 PM.


#169 Ravennus

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:36 AM

I just dropped in a match on Frozen City with a 4 man of all Splatcats.

Luckily they were on my team, and really... it wasn't fair to begin with because the other side started with 7 and then one guy just quit, leaving 6.

However, I thought I would follow them with my AC20 Hunchback 4H and just have some fun...


I outscored them all in damage and XP.... in my 2 MLAS/3 SLAS/AC20 Hunchback.

Does that mean my build is abusive? :D

Edited by Ravennus, 05 February 2013 - 12:46 AM.


#170 Hex Pallett

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:56 AM

View PostRavennus, on 05 February 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

I just dropped in a match on Frozen City with a 4 man of all Splatcats.

Luckily they were on my team, and really... it wasn't fair to begin with because the other side started with 7 and then one guy just quit, leaving 6.

However, I thought I would follow them with my AC20 Hunchback 4H and just have some fun...


I outscored them all in damage and XP.... in my 2 MLAS/3 SLAS/AC20 Hunchback.

Does that mean my build is abusive? :D


No. It simply means they suck.

#171 Ravennus

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:56 AM

View PostHelmstif, on 05 February 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:


No. It simply means they suck.


Clearly. :D

I just thought it was funny enough to share. :wacko:

#172 Void Angel

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:52 AM

I'm still not sold completely on the splatcat thing - it's not like you can't see them, and blast off an arm pretty quick.

View PostRyebear, on 04 February 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:


Center Torso max armors are 98 armor (Cat) vs 100 (Awsome) vs 122 (Stalker).

That isn't much of a difference until you get to the Stalker and consider that a Cat can protect their rear end (while facing you with their guns) in ways the other two cant as well as a 30KPH speed differential.

Well, actually the Catapult has a total of 84 available armor points in the center torso, and the Stalker has 108 - I think you're thinking of the Atlas with 124 CT armor. Anyways, the Stalker won't do the whole "agile heavy" thing at all. For one thing, it doesn't have as many hardpoints to mount SRMs. But it also has lots more guns, if you want a pure close-in build. It's also an assault, which means that in practice it's often reliant and depended on by its teammates for support. So it's kind of an apples and oranges thing if people are comparing the two loadouts.

#173 Parappaman

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:00 AM

I can't understand why this topic is so heated up. A specialistic build such as these infamous Catapults gives its owner a tough job at getting its most. As of today, the only build that feels way overpowered in respect to its "canon" role is the 3L, the rest is just a mixed bag of awesomeness, drawbacks and a very specific way to get the most out of it, that can be countered just as effectively. So why QQ?

#174 El Death Smurf

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:05 AM

dual ac20 builds most certainly have a BT president. (King Crab and Hunchback IIC) so do not call them an exploit. and war IS abusive. so watch the misnomenclature
wait till next month when we have jagermechs. that's 2Ac20 AND xl engines.... consider your self warned.
leave our poor man King Crabs alone!

and leave the A1 alone, seriously, you took its LRMs with all your QQ, then its streaks, now it has 2 options. SRMs and NARC beacons... so 1 option...

the ONLY valid argument i've seen in this cata-complaint thread is its more than generous torso twist. and frainkly, that's all this mech has.
all of the complaints are what add any flavor to this mech at all. 2 builds that you can't put on anything else (soon to be 1 build,) and the largest torso twist... some mech has to have it, why NOT the armless, large cockpit and center torso'd, mech with the ears and nose of an old man.

Edited by El Death Smurf, 05 February 2013 - 04:11 AM.


#175 1453 R

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:44 AM

OH MY GOD LEAVE THE CATAPULTS ALONE O_O

Why is this thread still a thing? Yes, we get it, the A1 has a lot of SRMs. The Rise of the Splattercat is a direct result of ECM's dominance - and that's not harping on ECM, either. ECM made LRMs - the normal let's-b****-at-Catapults weapons - largely ineffective, which of course denied them to Catapults. It also had the distinct secondary effect of making close-range combat, where ECM's sensor futzing effects are lessened, much more attractive. You introduce a system which both negates the Catapult's primary weapon and encourages/forces close combat, and then you wonder why you see so many Splattercats running around?

Rennovate ECM such that people can take LRMs into a match again without feeling like they're wasting tonnage, and you'll see less Splattercats. Introduce new maps with an emphasis on long-range combat, like Alpine Peaks, and you'll see less Splattercats. Will you ever see no Splattercats? No. And that's okay. Because sometimes you're just going to turn a corner and run chin-first into something with a giant alpha. Whether it be an Atlas or a Stalker or even a short-range Catapult, it will happen. That's part of the game; you'll never be able to convince people not to try for the knockout punch, short of removing 'Mechlab functionality altogether and forcing everyone to use default loadouts or bust. And then, ye know what?

They'll just play Stalkers instead of Splattercats.

EDIT: This forum has some weird word filters, man...

Edited by 1453 R, 05 February 2013 - 05:45 AM.


#176 Artificer

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:27 AM

I had an A1 for a while. In more or less the current game system I tried a variety of load-outs. Pure streaks were of course out of the question. LRMs were less than ideal on this variant due to the lack of self-TAG capability. Went through a few hybrids that seemed weak at all ranges and reluctantly arrived at the 6x SRM6 cat. It was the most boring mech I've ever run. No variety of weapon types and ranges. Same tactic applied to each match...I don't see the appeal.

Now I've encountered these in many matches and I PuG a fair bit too. They don't cause me any problems but I do make it a point to warn my team repeatedly, prioritise them as a target and give updates of its current location if on voice coms. I ran into one last night and was approximately 150m away before I began peeling off in my Dragon. Showed it my left side and was surprised by how little damage I took at that range...yellow LT, orange LA.

The only bad experience fighting these that sticks in my mind was in an 8-man. Whole team moving through the tunnel on forest colony and encountering an opposing team of at least 6 of them in there. But that's their realm and we made a poor decision to go that route.

As for those saying that there's no precedent in Battletech for such a configuration, I'd like to point out there's the custom canon variant in tech readout 3039 of 4x SRM6 (+4 MLAS on the C1) and also later on there's this medium mech...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arctic_Wolf 6x SRM6, 2x SRM4, 119kph and some variants with jump jets and ECM. Thankfully we don't have to worry about that for a long while.

I don't think it's over-powered if people are aware of it, and there's very little else you can do with an A1 these days. Hence why I sold mine.

As for the dual AC20 K2, that's one of my favourites alongside my C1. I like my back-up weapons so have 4 small lasers and have yet to run out of the AC20 ammo. I do actually feel that this mech is over-powered, at least from my perspective. I laugh maniacally every time I take down an enemy with it, especially at 300m out (the damage fall-off isn't that much by that point). I rarely run this mech, it just gets silly.

In terms of countering similar configs, I've had mixed experiences so in the end I'd put it down to player skill. In one match I circled round buildings in my laser C1, making it difficult to hit me. It was just us duelling by Kappa on River City. Trying to use my 'ears' as shields. Damage his CT badly but finally he enters the same gap between buildings and runs head-on point blank into me....to leave me with red armour on my left ear/arm. I turn back and core him.

In another match, a certain hamster hit me several times in my fast dragon from at least 250m out. Leaving me easy pickings for the rest of his team. Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!

Yes, these mechs are fearsome but far from unbeatable. I don't want to see either changed, yet I'm sure other content additions will shift the balance back and forth. I can always switch the dual AC20 K2 back to 4 Large Lasers...

#177 HighTest

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:51 AM

Everyone seems to forget that every mech loadout has a preferred role.

So far, all of our maps have been fairly small, and have a fair bit of cover in them. So mechs that excel at short-range firepower can do well at getting close and unloading a ton of damage. LRMS and long-range lasers and ballistics are less useful as long as those mechs stay in cover. So of course people feel the need to boat hard-hitting close-range weaponry.

Wait until the big desert map comes out. Or some farmland plains. Or whetever. Let's see how long a SplatCat or AC20 Cat (or frankly even an ECM Raven 3L) will last when they need to cross 2000m of open area and the team on the other side has a pile of AC2, AC5s, PPCs and ERLLASes. They probably won't even get close enough to get a shot off.

Any one mech that is OP is one situation is bound to be equally UP in another. More map variation will help deter people's need to boat one type of weapon style and/or range.

(At least until we can choose a mech for a given, known map -- in which case then anyone can take whatever mech they think is appropriate for the match. Then at least everyone will be boating more or less the same thing.)

#178 Ferret Thorn

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

It's not OP or anything? Just fall back and get your team to target it and poof problem solved?

This seems to be the best and number answere to killing the Splatter Cat. Hate to tell you, but the mere fact that you need to run and get help as the number one tactic to take them on, makes them a more powerfull build. Sure this works, but the point is the Splatter Cat verse any other mech 1 on 1, I'm betting on the Splatter Cat even if it's pilot is a pug or has less skill.

What people need to realize is that the A1 Cat is a exploit mech in general, rather it be SRMs, Streaks, or even LRMs. Only real difference is that the LRM is reliant on keeping a distance and team mates targeting ahead for you to rain death. The Streak Cat relies on your abilty to lock on and keep a lock to fire. But the SRM build relies on only the ability to get to get in range and lets face, that's not hard at all. Is it OP hmm perhaps but I would call it more of an exploit to the mech. The LRM and Streak Cat and even the Dual AC20 or Gauss K2 have a far greater risk to being countered by simple tactics than the Scatter Cat has to deal with.

#179 Ravennus

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:52 AM

Not sure if you understand the term "exploit" when it comes to online games. :ph34r:

Anyway, I'll take an A1 SplatCat 1-on-1 in any variant of my Hunchbacks anytime.
I'm not saying that I'm a super l33t pilot and that I'll always win, but I've fought enough of them to be fairly confident.


If he gets the drop on me? Sure, it can be painful.
But the same things goes for any mech with a good alpha sneaking up on someone.

Since when is an A1 Catapult suddenly immune to surprise attacks? It can happen to them just as easily.
One alpha from most of my Hunchbacks, and they are either missing half their weapons, legged, or cored from the back.
(It depends on my mood and their current armor condition)

And as others have said, SO much depends on individual pilot skill and how well they utilize cover.


For every good A1 Pilot I encounter, there are 10 more who run out into the open and expect an "I WIN" button. *shrug*

#180 Stringburka

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostFerret Thorn, on 05 February 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

It's not OP or anything? Just fall back and get your team to target it and poof problem solved?

This seems to be the best and number answere to killing the Splatter Cat. Hate to tell you, but the mere fact that you need to run and get help as the number one tactic to take them on, makes them a more powerfull build.

While I agree that the SRM-cat seems a bit too strong, I don't agree with this argument. "Focus fire" is the standard answer to any glass cannon, which the SRM-cat is. It is the primary solution to many offensive 'mech designs.





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