205 replies to this topic

[PropagandaWar]

Khobai, on 15 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Not necessarily. How do you think LoL became so popular despite 90% of the players being free players? PGI/IGP's goal right now should be to grow the player base as big as possible. And to do that they need to make the game as accessible for new players as possible and retain free players for as long as they can... and those players will in turn bring more players to the game. That is how F2P games thrive.

Accessible! How much more accessible should it friggin be. Seriously. You can get what I what I and any other person that has thrown money at this game can. I have friends on TS who spend little or nothing. They get everything I have it just takes a tad bit more time. Then you have players who only play one mech anyway and may always do. How the hell do you expect PGI to survive on that? So they don’t spend a dime. If you want more spend the 2 bucks and get a friggin mech bay. Sheesh. Here I have an Idea go buy a game for $60.00 bucks hate it and try and return it. Good luck.

Also I have read the limited income spouts in these forums. You know what you get to play a video game for nothing. So now you have the best of both worlds you can go buy bread and shoot stuff. But never whine about it. When you do all sorts of assumptions come to mind, and personally I don’t like assuming anything.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 15 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 15 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

PGI/IGP's goal right now should be to grow the player base as big as possible ...

That's all well and good. But, what if PGI and IGP start to heavily bleed money while doing so?

(That's a serious question by the way)

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Rotaugen]

I have two accounts. One is my big spender account that I have put 100,000 MC into. The other is my free account. On the free one, I have not spent a penny. I use it to test the trials and the free player experience. Both accounts are fun. Yes, the big spender one is more fun because I have 27 customized mechs to choose from (as well as tons of paint and pattern options, went crazy there) . But my free one is great too. Outside of occasional (10% of the time) team play in the big spender account, I don't notice any real differences in the game play itself. When I pug, it doesn't matter which account it is, outside the wider mech choices. Since my freebie account is being set up as a Hunchie account, it's fine as is. If I really needed (and I don't) another type to specialize in, I could simply make another free account.

[SI The Joker]

Good lord people. You sign up for this game and they give you 4 bays to start with.

Let me repeat that.

They give you 4 bays to start out with.

They don't force you to play trial mechs forever while dangling the hopes for something more like a carrot only if you spend money - they give you all the tools you need -- you just need to use them. If you want to collect mechs... that's a convenience and something you should pay for as you do now.

Break it down - if you buy the smallest package - you're talking $1.75 (rounded) per mechbay.

PS - Can we please merge all these threads about mechbays? There's a few of them now.

[Taemien]

I don't get the argument. These same players complain about mech bays. Yet I wonder what their steam library looks like. Seriously, they're willing to shell out $250 on games every couple of months that they play for 8 hours a piece max. Yet in a F2P game like MWO or PS2 they complain about them being pay to win, when all they have to do is not buy one extra game a month and they can have enough to purchase premium time, mech bays, and even a hero mech or two once in a while.

The problem isn't PGI's pricing. The problem is most players do not know how to prioritize their gaming budget.

[Texugo87]

With the current set up you can have 2 mastered mechs, and 2 more with basic completed. WIth a little c-bill sell and re-buy later you can get 4 mastered mechs. I won't disagree with your premise that a free player won't have the same "advantage" as paying players (having more mechs on hand to choose from), but I would say it's pretty trivial. The 4 bays allow you a lot of variability when combined with flexible chassis and a theoretically unlimited inventory of components, I wouldn't say that a paying player has much of an upper hand in the variety of builds they can have on hand. For example a stalker of almost any variant can be kitted out as an LRM boat, an SRM boat, a long range direct fire support mech, a command mech, a brawler, or a build that takes bits of several categories. If you couldn't completely reconfigure a chassis between matches with absolutely no penalty, maybe, I would agree with you. There are many chassis and variants that allow the same level of flexibility or more. Even if we could know before launch what map we were launching into, and lets say there was more complexity in objectives/game play than we have at the moment I really don't think a paying player with tons of chassis would have that much of an advantage over the free player, maybe slight, but all other things being equal I really don't see it being able to sway the outcome of the match. If your endgame of development is to master all the mechs in the game, you can do that too by buying chassis and selling them after mastering them.

All of that said, if you have put enough hours into the game to master even 1 chassis, I really think a person should compensate the publishers in devs in some way. Even if you don't think the game itself was worth anything (then why did keep playing long enough to master a chassis?), you took up server resources and man hours which cost money somewhere along the line. (not directed to the OP, using "you" in a general sense.)

Maybe I just have a different philosophy on the game, and paying for it though. I don't really view giving the dev's money as buying MC. I've bought MC twice, I did that because I have had fun playing the game, and want to continue having fun playing it (money keeps the servers running and development going). I view the money as compensating the devs and publishers for putting time and money into providing something I enjoyed. The MC is a bonus, and furthermore it enables me to have more fun. I can have more fun/enjoyment by playing around with colours and camos, making my mech as much of an eyesore as I can. I can have more fun by keeping the Hunchback 4J around that I bought to master my 4SP, even though I prefer the SP I find running around in the J enjoyable from time to time.

I don't see PGI/IGP/the game as selling yen low wangs, the colour pink, and tiger camo, I see them as selling an enjoyable way to spend your time, something they give you a fair bit of for free.

Even if you did want to view the free experience as a demo, its a pretty complete demo. Paying gets you access to what? More colours, different ways of applying them, a few variants (hero mechs) that are honestly just different instead of better, and the ability to have a greater number of loadouts available at a single click. The ONLY thing gameplay wise that you really can't do as a free player is run the hero variants, anything else you can do, you just make more trade-offs to do it, or it takes a bit longer.

TL;DR

Free gets you 95% of what paying can get you, 4/5ths of what it can't get you really doesn't matter, the rest is variants you don't have access to and a difference in how you go about doing a couple things and the time it takes to do them.

MWO sells fun not stuff, you can get a lot of fun for free. Look at buying MC as paying for the fun you had (and ensuring the game will be around in the future to continue enabling you to have fun), and the MC as an extra, which gives you a few more ways to have fun.

People want to be compensated for putting time, money, and effort into making something; if you like the product you should give them a return on that investment.

Capitalism.

[Rofl]

Khobai, on 15 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Well lets compare MWO to world of tanks then...

Does world of tanks require you to play 3 variants of a tank to master it? no.

Does world of tanks give you more than 4 tank slots for free? yes I believe you can get upto 6 for free.

So right there you can see that WoT handles tank garage slots way better than MWO.

Yes, since they do this one thing better in your opinion, we should totally use it as a basis to build upon. Let's not forget every other bad thing WoT does that MWO does better.

I'd rather have 4 free slots than golden ammo. If that's the sacrifice we make as a playerbase, I'm sure most would be okay with that. I can't speak for everyone of course. :/

[Sug]

Khobai, on 15 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Well lets compare MWO to world of tanks then...

Does world of tanks require you to play 3 variants of a tank to master it? no.

Does world of tanks give you more than 4 tank slots for free? yes I believe you can get upto 6 for free.

So right there you can see that WoT handles tank garage slots way better than MWO.

Does MWO require you to buy gold ammo to be competitive?

[Khobai]

Quote

Does MWO require you to buy gold ammo to be competitive?

But theres ways of getting gold ammo for free. Thats what you neglected to mention.

That's another thing that most successful F2P games do... they allow free players to earn small amounts of paid currency just by playing the game. World of Tanks gives you free gold when you participate in clan wars for example.

I would very much like to see MWO be successful. But I definitely think PGI's F2P model needs some revision to bring in more new players and retain players longer. Im sure their current model is working but that doesn't mean there isnt room for improvement.

Edited by Khobai, 15 February 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Khobai, on 15 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Not necessarily. How do you think LoL became so popular despite 90% of the players being free players? PGI/IGP's goal right now should be to grow the player base as big as possible. And to do that they need to make the game as accessible for new players as possible and retain free players for as long as they can... and those players will in turn bring more players to the game. That is how F2P games thrive.

Right now the current behavior pattern for free players is going to be... master maybe 2 mechs, then when they get bored with them, quit the game then go play something else. There is no incentive for those free players to keep playing because there's no advancement possible. That is not a good F2P model and is the exact opposite of what made LoL so successful.

Brilliant post.

The creepy thing is they undoubtedly thought long and hard about how and why money would be used in the game. This means that in all likelihood, what they have now IS working for them in some way or other. I had a similar experience with GW2 as I'm having now with this game - After spending a bunch of cash on it I began reflecting on exactly what I'd done with it, and decided to invest my next wad of cash on something more important. I even got a legendary precursor from their Karka event and still quit, it just felt weird and almost irresponsible in some way, it's hard to explain, but making this thread somehow made me feel better so I'll probably play this game some more now until my next 'what the **** am I doing?' moment.

CJMurphy87 said:

"People want to be compensated for putting time, money, and effort into making something; if you like the product you should give them a return on that investment.

Capitalism."

I fully agree, and for all the effort they've put in through the game's protracted development, I reckon they deserve more reward than most developers using this model. On the other hand, when I paid for things in League of Legends, I didn't feel quite the same guilty pang as I do when I buy stuff for MWO. Case in point, I bought the Pretty Baby mech and although it's really awesome (haha), I still can't quite get over the fact that I plinked down $30 freaking dollars for it!! My wife was like holy ****, $30? Whatever floats your boat!

Edited by RickySpanish, 15 February 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Sug, on 15 February 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Does MWO require you to buy gold ammo to be competitive?

Nope nor can ANYTHING you do buy provide you with any kind of advantage or ability you could not also get for cbills.

Cbill purchases:

Mechs
Weapons
Some colors

MC Purchases:

Mechs
Mech bays for collectors
More colors
Patterns
Cockpit Kitsch
Premium Time


What can you not get without paying:

Patterns, a bunch of colors, cockpit kitsch, Hero mechs

What does premium time do?

Makes each game count as a game and a half of equal result (you have bought time... heh time is money )


Where does any unfair advantage arise?

That's right nowhere, you can pay for bling and saved time... wheee. And before you trot out hero mechs ask people what they think of most hero mech variants.

The only thing that matters is Mechs and weapons and you can only even get half of that equation with MC directly.

Edited by Agent of Change, 15 February 2013 - 09:40 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Garth Erlam, on 15 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Indeed.

I have three Cicadas of which I used no MC to get. I have hero mechs to use during twitch events, but do not use them outside of that. I do not use premium time. I do not use my founders Mechs (for the bonus), and I 'burn' the extra money I make off my Founder/Hero Mechs (I buy and re-sell items until I lose the extra amount.)

My three Cicada are all bought, used, and loved with no MC.

Just one question, not related to the OP: did you have to pay for your founder or hero mechs or premium time? Just wondering.

Back to the subject: this game is not being made for our amusement, it's being made to earn some money. As long as it's fun to play and you're not forced to pay to have fun it's OK. People are willing to pay so I guess it's working as it should. I haven't spent any money on this game so far (but I may in the future) and I don't feel any worse than the paying guys.
And about mechbays - I think the only thing HAS TO change is that you should get free mech bay when you buy a hero mech.

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 15 February 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[b00zy]

for some reason people seem to think getting master modules will make you the best player in the universe

[Universe Man]

I apologize in advance if I offend anyone...but, this game IS free to play. You can log in and play for FREE. Nothing is stopping you from playing and being just as good as any other player.

So, I ask...let's try to complain about something a little more reasonable...like why the flamer and MG need major nerfs.

[Spawl]

Yes it is.

[Fooooo]

If I want to have all the tiger tanks + an M4 + a plethora of other tanks I love from ww2, I have to buy bays in WoT.

Same as if I want to have an atlas + cata + all the other mechs I love and want to have.......


Not having to buy 3 of the same tank to research all the upgraded parts is "different" than MwO, however there is no difference in the way the bays work.

If you want more than the standard amount of bays in either game to hold all the tanks or mechs you want to have, you pay for them.....mastering mechs has nothing to do with bays, as you can sell mechs and rebuy them.

Just like in WoT I can sell tanks and rebuy them if I dont have all the slots i want.

Edited by Fooooo, 15 February 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Mackman]

RickySpanish, on 15 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

I fully agree, and for all the effort they've put in through the game's protracted development, I reckon they deserve more reward than most developers using this model. On the other hand, when I paid for things in League of Legends, I didn't feel quite the same guilty pang as I do when I buy stuff for MWO. Case in point, I bought the Pretty Baby mech and although it's really awesome (haha), I still can't quite get over the fact that I plinked down $30 freaking dollars for it!! My wife was like holy ****, $30? Whatever floats your boat!

You're right, that feeling does suck. I hate it when I feel bad for paying more than I wanted to pay for something I don't need. If only there was some way I could avoid that bad feeling...

Sarcasm aside, if you wanna talk about hero mechs being way overpriced, you will have my full support. I can almost guarantee I will never buy a Hero mech as long as pricing remains like this. Their pricing, in a lot of areas, does need to be looked at and revised.

Mech bays, however, are the epitome of F2P perfection, the sweet spot of ease and convenience for us vs. profit for them. So as long as you're protesting the pricing of Mech Bays, we will remain in opposition.

[Khobai]

Quote

Mech bays, however, are the epitome of F2P perfection

And I agree. Mech bays are perfectly costed. I just don't agree that 4 mech bays is enough to keep free players interested in the game. I really don't see the harm in allowing players to buy upto 4 additional mech bays with c-bills. At most it's costing PGI $4 per paying customer... but they're increasing the grind length for free players by almost four times. So those free players will stick around for that much longer.

[Rahnu]

PropagandaWar, on 15 February 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Accessible! How much more accessible should it friggin be. Seriously. You can get what I what I and any other person that has thrown money at this game can-

Wow, you completely lost me right there.

Mech bays cost money. You need three variants of a mech to level up to Elite. You HAVE to level up to Elite because it is an enormous boon to mech performance. Yes, you CAN sell old mechs to make room for new ones, at the cost of losing 50% of what you paid for it in the first place.

This is not a winning proposition for free players. They're going to see that, they're going to shake their head, and they're going to quit.

It doesn't just look bad in comparison to League of Legends... it looks ESPECIALLY bad next to a game like DotA 2, where you are not denied anything that affects in-game performance, and are on even ground with every other player no matter how much time you have actually spent playing the game. No out-of-game leveling is required, no time must be spent grinding for items (you only do that within the matches themselves), you just jump in, have fun, get out, and that's it. You only have to spend money for vanity items and even then you can easily get items in-game through play and trading with other players.

I understand that the forum in general is going to have an attitude that is generally prejudiced against "freeloaders", but that attitude is not going to win the game new players and certainly is not going to see the game become successful by any objective measure. You have to be nice to your free players so they get a positive impression and spread that word of mouth that's so very important in the modern age for any F2P game. Neglect that, and you get the GW2 situation where your total concurrent player base is in the triple digits (if it's not already at that level... which it very well may be!).

Edited by Zyrusticae, 15 February 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

For some reason people seem to think you need more than even one mech bay to get the master module slot on every variant of every mech in the game.

Except its pointless to master more than 4 mechs if you only have 4 mech bays.