221 replies to this topic

[Twisted Power]

Alilua, on 23 February 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

ECM is why I play this game once or twice a month from everyday.

You and like half the people from my unit. :-/ My primium time runs out in a few days from my founders, I do not know how much I'll play after that.

[Ketzktl]

This is my beta feedback.

I finished playing a day of Mechwarrior online yesterday and have had time to reflect on the experience before posting this. From a purely personal point of view, ECM has made the game extremely frustrating to play.
Specifically for myself, the loss of IFF is the greatest issue.

The denial of missile use is an issue, but I can work with the handicap of not being allowed to use missiles by just boating direct and dumbfire weapons.

But the loss of IFF has ended in several frustrating games.
On more than one occasion, I find myself in situations where in the middle of a fight I have to guess whether my team is sticking it out or falling back and again, its frustrating getting killed and then realizing through spectator mode that you were making a one man stand because the rest of your team left.

On a couple of occasions I was left looking at a mech and not firing because I wasn't sure what team he was on.

An entire enemy lance or two sneaking up behind you is frustrating. When your team starts getting killed and the rest of the team is oblivious because guys are quietly dying under an ECM blackout its frustrating.

And watching an enemy team focus fire while your team scatters everywhere because you are denied the basic ability to type "kill C" because there is no way of telling who "C" is, is equally frustrating. Especially knowing that even if they aren't already on some 3rd party voice chat, they retain all the benefits you have been denied. They know where their own team is. They know where your team is. They can at the most basic level type "kill C" and focus fire.

And all of this comes knowing that there is very little you can do about it. If you are not carrying an ECM +1 on your team, you can't even counter this handicap.

I have tried TAG, and it is a crapshoot. Fast mechs can get out of TAG easily. The DDC or slow mechs under the ECM stealth bubble seem to be the only targets that TAG is a real threat to. PPC's are similar, I have never seen a difference in the flow of battle because an ECM mech was disrupted for 4 seconds and again, its only a real issue for the DDC.

There is no information warfare here, there is simply information denial and that's it. You either have ECM advantage or you don't, there is no in between.

In summary, ECM makes the game frustrating to play and that is why I have only been playing one or two days after each patch to see how things are progressing. I really liked this game and in those few matches without ECM I once again really enjoy it, win or lose. ECM just makes me feel like a victim because if I don't have ECM, there is no way to fight back against ECM.

Edited by Ketzktl, 23 February 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

I still think one of these things someone previously came up with should be considered.

1: ECMs to disrupt equipped 'Mechs targeting weapons (LRMs or SSRMs), but ONLY when on "Disruption" mode. This would add a strategic element between defense (Disrupt) and attack (Counter) for pilots who favor these weapons, and improve combat when multiple ECMs are involved. This would also increase the use of alternate builds on 'Mechs such as Ravens and Commandos.

2: ECMs draw a significant amount of neutral heat when equipped, forcing pilots who use them to take a more careful approach to combat, instead of rush and run in circles while firing. This is very realistic, as transmitters produce large quantities of heat, especially when sending a static, multi-channel signal. (Which all ECMs are by their nature.)

3: Force players to equip one of two ECM types, namely disruption or counter, which are unable to change mode. This would add a strategic element to gameplay, making users decide which role they intend to perform, and act accordingly during play. Even if each team had only one and had the same type, the mechanic would still function. In Counter-counter, no-one would have ECM. In Disrupt Disrupt, everyone would be dealing with blanket. In Disrupt-counter, the mechanic would function as it currently does.

4: Balance ECM counts in games already. PGI, I love you, I really do. So please understand where I am coming from here. Between statistical evidence, player feedback, and common understanding of the nature of ECMs that any player who reads up on them has, there is zero excuse to continue claiming ECM numbers do not effect the game or matchmaking in a negative way. Please, just stop already. It's getting a little silly. :3

Thanks for the new content, keep up the good work!

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 25 February 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Caleb Lee]

latdheretic, on 19 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

The PPC counter is working for me, I am able to hit ECM lights about half the time with them, and follow up with a volley of Streaks to mess them up.

I still feel that the game revolves too much around ECM, and that it is still a bit too powerful, but this patch was a huge step in the right direction.

Sadly It's such a pain to actually get a match that I looking at the forums rather than playing.

Apparently there was only one light in the area based on your description. So far what I've had are multiple lights with ECM overlapping which is how 8 man teams would be anyways so in reality their 'nerf/fix' was a very minor boost to PPC usage and does nothing for the larger matches.

Our entire unit is pretty much in retirement at this point until private matchmaking and a metagame of some sort.

[Caleb Lee]

Twisted Power, on 23 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

You and like half the people from my unit. :-/ My primium time runs out in a few days from my founders, I do not know how much I'll play after that.

I have 40 days of premium time ticking down and I am primarily playing WarThunder at the moment because I'm actually having fun there. ECM is more of an imbalance than Artemis death rain was and they are doing very little to correct it or even admit they made a mistake when they combined all 3 ECM systems/features in one unit.

What is even sadder is Mechwarrior is my favorite genre of all time.

[Caleb Lee]

Twisted Power, on 22 February 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

I see what they DID! I know 50-50 WEEKEND!!!!!

Because founders and hero mechs have no ECM. I guess they are trying to limit the amount of ECM mech players this weekend and increase hero mech sales at the same time!

So the busiest days this week don't get overloaded with ECM in combo with their new ELO matchmaking that has increased ECM usage.

As I work in sales and marketing in NYC. I can at least respect the marketing for PGI. Just as good (for them) and bad (for you) as Apple. Deny anything is wrong, push out products that make you forget the features you don't have or don't work. You can't sell me though (thats why I do not own apple products). Marketing does not work on me, I buy what I want. Damn do I want mechs. (without ECM in its OP state) I will pay for you to fix the damn thing.

Even with 50/50 weekend and the fact i have 40 days of premium time ticking down I will be playing WarThunder and other games, not MW:O. Unless I have a buddy that's new who begs me to help him or something like that.

It is a good move on their part in one way, but denying there's a HUGE issue and they totally screwed up like they did with Artemis (which they admitted there were bugs etc...) is another thing.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Caleb Lee, on 23 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

I have 40 days of premium time ticking down and I am primarily playing WarThunder at the moment because I'm actually having fun there. ECM is more of an imbalance than Artemis death rain was and they are doing very little to correct it or even admit they made a mistake when they combined all 3 ECM systems/features in one unit.

What is even sadder is Mechwarrior is my favorite genre of all time.

I feel it too. I love my TBT-7M and it is by far my favorite medium (and probably favorite mech.) but if I drop into a game with no ECMs, I am totally boned 90% of the time. As a result, I end up playing my Spider-5D much more often. I am playing a mech I do not prefer for the sake of actually enjoying the game.

[Ghostbear Gurdel]

Once Again, i want to comment that ECM is broken. I just had a fight on caustic where I got ********** in my TBT-3C by an entire enemy team because I could not see them through the woods, and the enemy ECM made it so that while I could not see them at all, and they all knew where I was. As is, ECM is a super cloak that works as well as something out of star trek. ONE ECM makes an entire team invisible to anything you might possibly use to find them, aside from running into them. Because of the random nature of PUGs, the only way to guarantee that you can find the enemy is to take an ECM mech yourself, but that only works if you get within 200 meters. So the best way right now to find an enemy team that has ECM is to follow the smoke, as your dead friends are the only way you will find them.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Put ECM the way it is supposed to be. It should only 100% cancel out, Artemis IV, NARC, TAG, and BAP. It should not stop IFF systems. If you want to make it better, make it so that you can still see the mech's box, (mech A, B ect) but not the Chassis or variant. That way I can see the 5 enemy mechs on the hill AND EVEN SHOOT THEM! , but not what mechs they are, so maybe I shoot at target "A". Unfortunately "A" is an AS-7, I should have chosen "B", the JM-6. That would make ECM useful, but not the all powerful "I win" easy button that it currently is.

Edited by Ghostbear Gurdel, 24 February 2013 - 07:14 AM.

[SirLankyIII]

The current implementation and treatment of ECM in MWO is a textbook case of design fixation if I've ever seen one. Someone in the dev team has a vision for what they want ECM to be and rather than compromise on that vision and balance ECM against the rest of the game systems, they're trying to balance everything else around ECM, and that's just not going to work. Eventually they'll have to see reason as any system as omnipotent as ECM, that requires a complex series of very specific counters that players can't play effectively without, will render the game boring and homogenous.

[DTheSleepless]

SirLankyIII, on 23 February 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

The current implementation and treatment of ECM in MWO is a textbook case of design fixation if I've ever seen one. Someone in the dev team has a vision for what they want ECM to be and rather than compromise on that vision and balance ECM against the rest of the game systems, they're trying to balance everything else around ECM, and that's just not going to work. Eventually they'll have to see reason as any system as omnipotent as ECM, that requires a complex series of very specific counters that players can't play effectively without, will render the game boring and homogenous.

THIS.

If there are old Magic players in the audience they'll be reminded of Necropotence. R&D was so in love with the card that they kept banning cards *around* it before eventually being forced to admit that Necropotence was really the problem the entire time.

There's also a strong feeling that PGI has an idea of how the game should play that at this point seems to run completely counter to how the players want to play it. So instead we're getting shoehorned into a game that doesn't work.

Above all this, the radio silence is probably the most insulting thing.

[Twisted Power]

Caleb Lee, on 23 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

I have 40 days of premium time ticking down and I am primarily playing WarThunder at the moment because I'm actually having fun there. ECM is more of an imbalance than Artemis death rain was and they are doing very little to correct it or even admit they made a mistake when they combined all 3 ECM systems/features in one unit.

What is even sadder is Mechwarrior is my favorite genre of all time.

I'm in the same boat except with less time and I don't even have another game yet. I've begun to look.

SirLankyIII, on 23 February 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

The current implementation and treatment of ECM in MWO is a textbook case of design fixation if I've ever seen one. Someone in the dev team has a vision for what they want ECM to be and rather than compromise on that vision and balance ECM against the rest of the game systems, they're trying to balance everything else around ECM, and that's just not going to work. Eventually they'll have to see reason as any system as omnipotent as ECM, that requires a complex series of very specific counters that players can't play effectively without, will render the game boring and homogenous.

You are correct, that is what it is. I've said it before in the other ECM feedback threads. There is somebody high up who is pushing this ECM crap and you can't tell him no because he owns most of the damn game.

Edited by Twisted Power, 24 February 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[arghmace]

Played about 25 battles today. Saw just one 8-0 stomping. Yep, you guessed it, the other team had 3 ECM and the other none. ECM is so bloody ******** there are no words for it, really.

[StalaggtIKE]

DTheSleepless, on 24 February 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

There's also a strong feeling that PGI has an idea of how the game should play that at this point seems to run completely counter to how the players want to play it. So instead we're getting shoehorned into a game that doesn't work.

Above all this, the radio silence is probably the most insulting thing.

Elo, ECM and the currently running hero tourney all point to one thing, this is not a working man's game.

• Elo, uses single players to fill in gaps for the 4/8man teams to have full games. We more or less function as bots.
  
• ECM, strips non-verbal communication out of the game (call letters, minimap location, paperdoll and ect). The little bit of team work tools we had are gone; at least ECM does not effect the chat box. Its greatest counter is not TAG, PPC or modules, it's verbal communication! Joining TS with a dedicated lance or with randoms after a hard days work is not an option for all of us.
  
• The current tourney is all about numbers. The more hours you can put into the game, the higher your score. Not even a player with considerably better KDR and W/L will rank higher than someone dumping 10+hrs a day.

If you want a rewarding experience you are out of luck if you:

• work a full time job or multiple parttimes jobs
  
• come home to dependent kiddies/elderly/pets
  
• do not consider being pug-stomped as a rewarding experience

It is a real shame because I imagine a lot of the crowd that grew up with the BT/MW franchise falls into one or more of these categories. It appears that the devs have a certain vision on how MWO should be played; 4man teams over TS, clocking in countless dedicated hours.

Disregarding balance or lore, I imagine the working man/woman is a corner of the market that PGI would like to own. Since we do not have the time to play endlessly for c-bills, we hash out real money. It would be counter productive to continue to dismiss our point of view.

Edit: I forgot to mention the new "warning targeted" message causes its own problems, since selecting a target was the single best way to communicate non-verbally of an enemy's position. Also the delete and backspace keys lost their repeat function in-game, making utilizing the chatbox even further cumbersome. It's like a conspiracy..., seriously!

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 24 February 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

I wouldn't go that far, but they really need to take a good long look at the depth:accessibility relationship in the game.

Like the new X-COM game. Its fun, but they tried to make it more accessible, and wound up stripping a lot of the depth of the game. It also makes certain aspects frustrating as the way to keep planetary calm is by building satellites and uplinks to launch right before council updates; not by building infrastructure to actually stop the aliens. On the other hand, I'm glad I don't have to worry about getting bogged down managing every last clip of ammo.

So really, look at the simple stuff and ask, "Is this good, or just a cop-out?" And look at the complex and difficult stuff and ask, "Is this deep, or just a hurdle to leap?"

Edited by Critical Fumble, 24 February 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

@Critical Fumble: This isn't about difficulty. The game is coercing everyone to conform to a particular playstyle: 4man over TS. This is how the devs play it (as seen on twitch.tv) and most ECM fanboys. Getting around ECM isn't an issue, all one must do is join a TS or equivalent voice server. This leaves ECM with only blocking guided missiles, which is fairly easily remedied with direct fire, TAG and/or PPC. So NO, ECM is not a hurdle. I don't join a game, see ECM and think darn I can't use my LRM. Instead I see a majority of the enemy team wandering around in the open and being unable to communicate this to my team without much typing and clarification. Where as before I would simply cycle through the targets with my 'R' key. Perhaps I come from an old school of thought, but if you're dumb enough to be in the open, I think you should suffer consequences. In a way ECM is making the game more accessible, by allowing players to have success with bad movement and disregard to cover.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 24 February 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

there are my opinion as a response on LRMs are OP guy
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1951356

[Critical Fumble]

IE: ECM countering LRMs and light-ups is a cop-out, yes? Unless there's some hidden disadvantage to being obscured that I'm unaware of.

Actually I think that aspect is both: a cop-out in that there is an effectively costless way of countering some weapons; and a hurdle in that to use those weapons you HAVE to have an appropriate counter. If I want to use LRMs, I have to have a TAG, If I want to use SSRMs I need ECM. Reliably, at least, I've seen situations where the other team has no ECM, but cases where they do makes it a gamble. Notice how CAT-A1s pretty much only have SRMs nowadays?

And the four people teams as the basis for a good time - hurdle, as far as I'm concerned. I've had good games with other solo droppers because - get this - we played as a TEAM. You don't need to force people into a neat little premade team box to make it a team game - you just need to reinforce it with good non-voice coms and a reward system that doesn't look like it was ripped out of a reality TV show.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Ecm bubbles should counter each other. Got ecm and run near another ecm mech (friendly or enemy) u both get countered. So there u have it. Another quality post from the BH

[StalaggtIKE]

Critical Fumble, on 24 February 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

IE: ECM countering LRMs and light-ups is a cop-out, yes? Unless there's some hidden disadvantage to being obscured that I'm unaware of.

Actually I think that aspect is both: a cop-out in that there is an effectively costless way of countering some weapons; and a hurdle in that to use those weapons you HAVE to have an appropriate counter. If I want to use LRMs, I have to have a TAG, If I want to use SSRMs I need ECM. Reliably, at least, I've seen situations where the other team has no ECM, but cases where they do makes it a gamble. Notice how CAT-A1s pretty much only have SRMs nowadays?

And the four people teams as the basis for a good time - hurdle, as far as I'm concerned. I've had good games with other solo droppers because - get this - we played as a TEAM. You don't need to force people into a neat little premade team box to make it a team game - you just need to reinforce it with good non-voice coms and a reward system that doesn't look like it was ripped out of a reality TV show.

It seems that we generally agree. I do not feel that ECM is a "I win button", however it definitely gives the user a nice advantage. More so than anything in the game. The fact is there are no disadvantages to utilizing ECM. I am completely aware of teamwork through solo drops, as I only pug. I'm simply stating that the devs are slowly stripping tools out of MWO that allowed for unobstructive non-verbal communication.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 25 February 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

StalaggtIKE, on 25 February 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

It seems that we generally agree. I do not feel that ECM is a "I win button", however it definitely gives the user a nice advantage. More so than anything in the game. The fact is there are no disadvantages to utilizing ECM. I am completely aware of teamwork through solo drops, as I only pug. I'm simply stating that the devs are slowly stripping tools out of MWO that allowed for unobstructive non-verbal communication.

Oh, yeah, you're one of the people I generally do agree with.

What I meant back there was, I don't think they're intentionally trying to screw over everyone who doesn't play exactly like they do. I get a distinct "distracted professor" vibe from the group at times; like a scientist who's spent so much time in the lab studying something that they forget what its like to actually experience it in an uncontrolled environment.

Like ECM, if you playtested it with voice - a perfectly reasonable thing to do to make sure it goes smoothly - the loss of map info would be a minor inconvenience. And after the fact, if you failed to try solo dropping much if at all, you wouldn't understand how crippling it can be without voice.

So, yeah, its bad, and they desperately need to have some of their team be pug experts if they want that as a part of their market share; but I don't see how anyone intelligent enough to actually piece together this kind of software could rationalize intentionally making this a "No headset, no Razor, no service" type environment.