169 replies to this topic

[LordDeathStrike]

LordDeathStrike, on 04 June 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

first off: clan mechs can only fire at mechs that have hit them with weapons fire (zell rule of engagement)
second: mechs of lower battle value then the clan mech, are worth 0 points to dmg or kill, if more then 1 clanner hits an IS mech its worth nothing when killed.
third: for a game of clan vs inner sphere to even launch, the clan teams total bv has to be lower then or equal to the IS team (bv determined by in game system that tracks by weapons and armor used on the mechs)(this can be done by ensureing the clanners are all in crappy IS grade mechs for 12 vs 12, or it might be 4 dire wolves vs 20 atlases)
fourth: if you dont like any of the above dont jump ship from IS to go clans, stay IS house or merc and wait to get ahold of clan/lostech and fight dishonorably, clanners fight with honor due to indoctrination, deal with it.

in the end this system, sets it up. the clanners cant just multi target and engage at superior range while kiting which would be game breaking. once they are in range and IS engages they cant just multi target and obliterate the IS team and get max payout, in fact if they dont use zell and kill every IS mech dishonorably theyll get nothing for the win, because win bonus x 0 for not using zell = 0 reward. and with a bv match making scan, it will keep games somewhere in the neighborhood of the IS having a chance to win, rather then going in knowing youre dead before it starts.

one small modification, no need to force clanners to be unable to fire first. if they do fire first, they get 0 reward, if they hold fire until engaged they get reward.

this way its not forcing zell. if you dont use zell, you just dont win the game, you get 0 reward for the killing. if you do use zell, you get cookies (rewarded whether you won or lost, better rewarded for useing zell and winning, but if you dont use zell you lose no matter what)

as a reward for IS players, if you use zell, even if you lose the game, you get more reward then winning without useing zell.

this way EVERYBODY wins more then without useing zell tactics. and i think we can all aggree that if it rewards everyone more, then everyone wins this way.

[Rahn]

I am definitely more in favor of a system that rewards for "clan-like" play than one that punishes for the opposite. Honestly, If we get any sort of system for this at all, I will be surprised. I think they will just leave it up to us to deal with as best we can (IE: game settings, league rules, "gentleman's agreements").

[Jordan Kell]

There is no guarantee that the clans will be playable, so kinda early to even worry about it yet. IMO

[Karl Streiger]

At first i have to thank you - all there are some great ideas in this topic

No punishment...when the multipled costs of a clan mech are linear to the dmg per second - no problem
(for example)
similar clan and is mech cost 30.000.000 and 24.000.000
dmg deal per second should be 30 and 24 or something like that

[phelancracken]

Does anyone know why the clans abandoned using Zell? Especially Ghost Bears that were very WARDEN about it? I will tell you why. The IS trying to exploit the rules by lying and cheating. Yes, they lied and cheated by understating their forces or not even saying what some forces were. Especially mercenaries. Now, read canon and look up what happens when Clan Ghost Bear meets an unknown merc unit. They WON'T give zell due to previous mercs not showing honor. Only Merc units or units that have shown past honor by following zell. The Dragons they will give zell to due to the Dracs having a culture that respects honor.

If an IS company or unit small enough to use C3 the clans won't use zell. End of discussion. You are cheating by using another mech to get an unfair range advantage from the clans point of view. It's not ONE ON ONE combat. Another mech is helping with the targeting. I laugh when I see IS wanting the clans to use zell. Why would they do that when the IS won't show the same honor? Ego, when an clanner suspects underhandedness zell is void. If you don't think that's the case, look up the rules for zell especially after Tukiyaid.

Clan Wolf was opportunistic on the use of Zellbringen for a reason. Can we say intel from Wolf's Dragoons? They KNEW the IS wouldn't do one on one combat unless it's to their advantage (IS). If IS wants zell, they have to follow the rules of zell also. It's not a handicap if it's followed both sides. There are instances of when both sides followed the rules it worked VERY well. Merc units that followed the zellbringen rules were treated fairly and HONORABLY when engaged. Ghost Bears would still give zell to units that followed zell. Only to them. Once you slip up, you were done, you got clanners using IS tactics on YOU.

If you don't like the clans, that's your perogative. But trying to force the clanners to use zell when you won't fight that way, hey, they are still human, they will return favors. First rule of warfare, there are no rules. I look at it this way IS players. If you want the clans to fight with zell, why don't you do the same back? "do unto others you would have them do unto you". Turn about is fair play.

[Vodkavaiator]

phelancracken, on 05 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

f you don't like the clans, that's your perogative. But trying to force the clanners to use zell when you won't fight that way, hey, they are still human, they will return favors. First rule of warfare, there are no rules. I look at it this way IS players. If you want the clans to fight with zell, why don't you do the same back? "do unto others you would have them do unto you". Turn about is fair play.

Personally I very much subscribe to the "all is fair in love and war" mentality.

The problem however is that this is a game that requires two sides actually having fun or being interested in playing.

The enforcement(reward/punishment/etc) of Zellbringen in the game presents a possible way to allow the clans to still be technologically superior whilst not completely ruining the fun of playing as IS. Most people don't enjoy constantly losing after all.

Of course there are several other ideas such as BV which might also ensure that the two sides maintain some sort of parity despite the technology advantage of the clans.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 05 June 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Next point is challenge. For some player it will be boring to win and to win all the time. I will use an extreme example.
I have bought me a Catapult with arrow iV - and Davy Crocket Warheads (those that didn't know it is a 10 MT nuclear warhead) i have 5 shots and with every single shot i waste a complete lance of attackers - all i need is a scout.
Well i win and i win and i win and i get billions of points on credits and xp and... duno... where is the fun?
Its all about competition - and competition is part of the clans. Maybe not from the look from the IS but you shot down a enemy Atlas with your Thor. But i comrade of you did the same with a Nova...so you will try to beat him and use a Fenris to face a Atlas...maybe you will get wastet all the time but it could happen that you win that battle...so its up to your comrade to beat your challenge... and so on.

To have challenge however we need a abstract numeric value to trac the difficulty of a challenge. And to win with Zellbrigen while your foe does not is challenging

puh sry for this long letter...but after writing it my decision never ever to join a clan is crumbeling....

[Skylarr]

How Zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.

Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of Zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.

After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.

[Kartr]

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

By the time the Clans hit almost all Inner Sphere Mechs in the game will the new Tech. So will the IS need a 10v12 ratio or will 12v12 be just fine?

Even with Star League tech the IS is still significantly outclassed in terms of equipment so yes 10v12 is still most likely necessary. Besides Clans don't use 4 and 12 'Mech units, they use 5 and 10 'Mech units so 12 Clan vs 12 IS just doesn't make sense anyway.

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Not true I would say about 95% of all Mechs are owner by the Mech warrior. During the *** the Houses upgraded Mechs owned by the Mechwarriors. After the Invasion that number should have changed a little bit. Maybe down to as low as 80%. Later in history that nuber may have changed even more.

It is physically impossible for the IS Houses to have fielded militiaries where 95% of the 'Mechs were owned by private individuals. Not only would it be impossible in terms of hiring, establishing command structures, enforcing discipline and ensuring that they would fulfill their jobs (problems with any militia), the simple fact that the Houses were building BattleMechs and training new pilots makes it obvious that most did not own their own 'Mechs.

The reason it seems like most IS 'MechWarriors own their own 'Mechs is because most of the fluff is written about the rich, the powerful, the mercenaries, and the nobles. Often one character would be three of those, or maybe just one or two. These characters have the wealth and connections to buy and modify their own BattleMechs unlike your standard 'MechWarrior who was trained at an academy for three years and then issued his/her first BattleMech upon arriving at their first unit.

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

You are right. The Clans will not be forced to follow Zellbringing. Nor should they. I want to see PGI concentrate on getting Mechs into the game.

You will see Zellbringing on the 1v1 level. I am hoping to see it on the 4v4 and the 12v12 level matches from Clan units that join the Match making as a single group.

Well the devs have well over a year to figure out how to do the Clans so they have plenty of time to introduce more 'Mechs into the game until then.

As for Zellbrigen while it might not be a good idea to force players to follow it, it is probably a really good idea to introduce benefits for following it. In addition some restrictions will have to be forced on Clan players to help balance out their superior equipment and Zellbrigen along with the Clan mentality offer great ways to do that. Clans don't use teamwork, they're glory hounds out to win more fame than their fellows, so every time more than one Clanner attacks the same IS target you reduce their rewards significantly. If you do that you encourage Clan players to play like Clanners and their lack of teamwork helps give the IS players a fighting chance.

Outlaw, on 04 June 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

One thing i have yet to see adressed, so what happens when the IS decides to break Zell when they agree to it? because last I remember the moment someone on the IS side screwed the pooch all bets were off and it was weapons free for everyone regardless of who shot who, or who called out who.

The IS can't break Zell because the IS doesn't follow Zell, which also means that the IS can't "screw the pooch" by not following the Clans stupid rules. Even though technically Zell may be a dead letter when fighting pilots who don't acknowledge it, it is such a deeply ingrained part of the Clanner psyche that they will unconsciously continue to follow it. They will still pick a single target and attempt to destroy it before moving on, they will not assist allies because they're trained to not "interfere." Zell isn't just some rules they follow, its how they're raised and its how they think.

phelancracken, on 05 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Does anyone know why the clans abandoned using Zell? Especially Ghost Bears that were very WARDEN about it? I will tell you why. The IS trying to exploit the rules by lying and cheating. Yes, they lied and cheated by understating their forces or not even saying what some forces were. Especially mercenaries. Now, read canon and look up what happens when Clan Ghost Bear meets an unknown merc unit. They WON'T give zell due to previous mercs not showing honor. Only Merc units or units that have shown past honor by following zell. The Dragons they will give zell to due to the Dracs having a culture that respects honor.

Lol this is WAR kid, there are no rules. The IS didn't exploit the rules because in war the only rule is to WIN! Since there are no rules, the IS didn't cheat and lying to your enemy isn't just a perfectly valid tactic it is actually admirable. Sir Winston Churchill once said "Truth is so precious that she must often be attended by a bodyguard of lies." Keeping your enemies in the dark about your forces, your positions and your intentions is vital to success.

So your indignation is quite funny to behold. "Yes, they lied and cheated..!!" Oh my, they did!? Of course they did, only idiots tell their enemies how many troops you're bringing to battle and where you're attacking. Telling your enemy what you're going to do isn't "honorable" it's stupid and should earn anyone who does it a Darwin Award.

phelancracken, on 05 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

If an IS company or unit small enough to use C3 the clans won't use zell. End of discussion. You are cheating by using another mech to get an unfair range advantage from the clans point of view. It's not ONE ON ONE combat. Another mech is helping with the targeting. I laugh when I see IS wanting the clans to use zell. Why would they do that when the IS won't show the same honor? Ego, when an clanner suspects underhandedness zell is void. If you don't think that's the case, look up the rules for zell especially after Tukiyaid.

Again there's no such thing as cheating in war. As for C3 giving IS pilots and unfair range advantage in the eyes of the Clans, it is really hypocritical considering the Clans weapon ranges. Not to mention the fact that Clanners think war is made up of one on one combat with rules governing it, just shows how stupid the Clan mentality is. Again the IS isn't doing anything dishonorable when they're fighting the Clans, the Clans are just a bunch of idiots who think wars are duels between peers, honor is in how you treat the fallen, the civilian and the prisoner.

phelancracken, on 05 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Clan Wolf was opportunistic on the use of Zellbringen for a reason. Can we say intel from Wolf's Dragoons? They KNEW the IS wouldn't do one on one combat unless it's to their advantage (IS). If IS wants zell, they have to follow the rules of zell also. It's not a handicap if it's followed both sides. There are instances of when both sides followed the rules it worked VERY well. Merc units that followed the zellbringen rules were treated fairly and HONORABLY when engaged. Ghost Bears would still give zell to units that followed zell. Only to them. Once you slip up, you were done, you got clanners using IS tactics on YOU.

Clan Wolf was more loose about their interpretation of Zell when dealing with other Clans before the invasion. Because Clan Wolf was always written as the least idiotic Clan out of the bunch, not that they didn't have their own nutjob window lickers with the same dumb concept of war as the rest of the Clans.

Of course the IS won't use Zell unless its to their advantage, why the heck would they? Use your enemies weaknesses against them, the Clans biggest weakness is their mindset and Zell is central to that.

Oh yeah how often did IS units win battles where they followed Zellbrigen? Other than Tukyyiad of course, and it has to be before Operation Serpent/Bulldog. Of course its not a handicap if both sides follow it, that's why people are suggesting the Clans be forced to use it. Because the Clans need a handicap in order to even the playing field when fighting IS forces in the game.

No you're not automatically going to get the Clans using IS tactics against you if you "slip up." First the Clans would have to understand what squad/lance/star level tactics are! Second they have to over come an entire lifetime of training, a cultural mindset that has been ingrained in them from the moment they were decanted. Even if Clan pilots know that Zell is called off they're generally going to pick individual targets and attack that target until its dead. They're not likely to aid comrades because not interfering in other warriors duels is so deeply ingrained. Bottom line is even if Zell has been called off Clan warriors are still going to subconsciously follow it, which means that the Devs are perfectly justified in programming penalties for breaking Zell and bonuses for following it, to help handicap the Clans when fighting IS units.

phelancracken, on 05 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

If you don't like the clans, that's your perogative. But trying to force the clanners to use zell when you won't fight that way, hey, they are still human, they will return favors. First rule of warfare, there are no rules. I look at it this way IS players. If you want the clans to fight with zell, why don't you do the same back? "do unto others you would have them do unto you". Turn about is fair play.

Because the whole point is that the Clans have Zell burned into their heads, they can't just turn it off that easily. Ingrained behaviors are something people fall back on in moments of high stress and I can assure you from personal experience that combat isvery high stress indeed! Secondly why should the IS players use Zell? It's not an idiotic concept that the Inner Sphere has ever even heard of until the Clans invade, let alone have had ingrained into their way of life. We won't use Zell, but the Clans will because its what they know, its what they'll subconsciously revert to during combat. Since Clan players aren't crippled by a lifetime of following Zell, it only makes sense that the devs program things that encourage and even force Clan players to use it.

Why would we use Zell? The IS isn't crippled by that idiotic set of rules, the way the Clans are. Plus the IS is at a huge disadvantage to the Clans in terms of equipment and Zell can help balance out that disadvantage. So not only is it in the lore that Clans have Zell, and that it is deeply ingrained in them, but it gives the devs a way to balance the game. So why shouldn't the Clans be forced or at least strongly encouraged to follow it?

Why don't we use Zell back? Because we're not mentally defective from generations of genetic engineered inbreeding, we have no lore based reason to use it and we're already heavily out gunned. In war it's "do unto others before they do unto you."

[phelancracken]

Kartr, on 05 June 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

The IS can't break Zell because the IS doesn't follow Zell, which also means that the IS can't "screw the pooch" by not following the Clans stupid rules. Even though technically Zell may be a dead letter when fighting pilots who don't acknowledge it, it is such a deeply ingrained part of the Clanner psyche that they will unconsciously continue to follow it. They will still pick a single target and attempt to destroy it before moving on, they will not assist allies because they're trained to not "interfere." Zell isn't just some rules they follow, its how they're raised and its how they think.


Lol this is WAR kid, there are no rules. The IS didn't exploit the rules because in war the only rule is to WIN! Since there are no rules, the IS didn't cheat and lying to your enemy isn't just a perfectly valid tactic it is actually admirable. Sir Winston Churchill once said "Truth is so precious that she must often be attended by a bodyguard of lies." Keeping your enemies in the dark about your forces, your positions and your intentions is vital to success.


So your indignation is quite funny to behold. "Yes, they lied and cheated..!!" Oh my, they did!? Of course they did, only idiots tell their enemies how many troops you're bringing to battle and where you're attacking. Telling your enemy what you're going to do isn't "honorable" it's stupid and should earn anyone who does it a Darwin Award.


Again there's no such thing as cheating in war. As for C3 giving IS pilots and unfair range advantage in the eyes of the Clans, it is really hypocritical considering the Clans weapon ranges. Not to mention the fact that Clanners think war is made up of one on one combat with rules governing it, just shows how stupid the Clan mentality is. Again the IS isn't doing anything dishonorable when they're fighting the Clans, the Clans are just a bunch of idiots who think wars are duels between peers, honor is in how you treat the fallen, the civilian and the prisoner.


Clan Wolf was more loose about their interpretation of Zell when dealing with other Clans before the invasion. Because Clan Wolf was always written as the least idiotic Clan out of the bunch, not that they didn't have their own nutjob window lickers with the same dumb concept of war as the rest of the Clans.

Of course the IS won't use Zell unless its to their advantage, why the heck would they? Use your enemies weaknesses against them, the Clans biggest weakness is their mindset and Zell is central to that.

Oh yeah how often did IS units win battles where they followed Zellbrigen? Other than Tukyyiad of course, and it has to be before Operation Serpent/Bulldog. Of course its not a handicap if both sides follow it, that's why people are suggesting the Clans be forced to use it. Because the Clans need a handicap in order to even the playing field when fighting IS forces in the game.

No you're not automatically going to get the Clans using IS tactics against you if you "slip up." First the Clans would have to understand what squad/lance/star level tactics are! Second they have to over come an entire lifetime of training, a cultural mindset that has been ingrained in them from the moment they were decanted. Even if Clan pilots know that Zell is called off they're generally going to pick individual targets and attack that target until its dead. They're not likely to aid comrades because not interfering in other warriors duels is so deeply ingrained. Bottom line is even if Zell has been called off Clan warriors are still going to subconsciously follow it, which means that the Devs are perfectly justified in programming penalties for breaking Zell and bonuses for following it, to help handicap the Clans when fighting IS units.
Why would we use Zell? The IS isn't crippled by that idiotic set of rules, the way the Clans are. Plus the IS is at a huge disadvantage to the Clans in terms of equipment and Zell can help balance out that disadvantage. So not only is it in the lore that Clans have Zell, and that it is deeply ingrained in them, but it gives the devs a way to balance the game. So why shouldn't the Clans be forced or at least strongly encouraged to follow it?

Why don't we use Zell back? Because we're not mentally defective from generations of genetic engineered inbreeding, we have no lore based reason to use it and we're already heavily out gunned. In war it's "do unto others before they do unto you."

Okay kid, and I do mean kid. You obviously don't get it and I would love to explain this in person, C3 is in violation of getting zell due to you having someone ELSE participate in a battle for your benefit. Yes, clans have better range, but they still can't just have another mech shorten the range to effectively short for nothing just by being there.

2. Your saying anything is fair in war, so guess what? That's why the clans don't give zell. IS want's to cry and force clans to fight crippled. Then YOU fight that way. Seriously. I am challenging you to fight that way before trying to make the clans do that. Canon has showed that Inner Sphere in general wasn't going to use honor, so the clans changed tactics. Suddenly, the IS complained due to not having an "unfair" advantage. You want to win at all costs by using the clans as whipping boys. I would love to see you fight 5 clan mechs against 12 3050 tech or better IS mechs.

3. Clan Wolf was opportunistic due to again Wolf's Dragoons starting their recon back in 3005. Yes, back then. 40+ years of recon work tends to change ideas of what works.

4. Oh, and your WRONG about IS not using zell. Your obviously not a Draconis Combine player. They do follow a form of zell, called Bushido. In the source book of Wolf's Dragoons a Kuritan warrior refused to allow his company to attack Jaime Wolf's Archer after it had heat shut down. They allowed him to return to his unit and later they fought together and then against each other at Misery. So, yeah, Again, Bushido is similar in many ways to zell. Try harder next time kid.

5. Zell isn't burned into their heads that the clans are stupid. You yourself stated that Clan Wolf was opportunistic. They have learned and other clans learned to. Far faster than the IS wanted them too.

6. Finally if you do BV, zell isn't needed. That's your zell right there due to the clan player having quite a few LESS mechs than the IS and being outweighed. Then it's a matter of using tactics of not allowing the IS to bum rush you to bring superior physical attacks and use your weapons range advantage. So from a stand point of fairness and having played, read and breathed table top battletech, you sound like a clan hater that wants to beat them up just so he or she can feel better instead of a fair game. I have played both clan and IS mechs. I play the mechs that I want to play, when I play.

You say clans are broken, not really. You can negate their advantages with tactics and numbers. Are they powerful? Yes. But they are not all powerful. C3 is a vicious system that can really ruin clanners days. C3i is even more deadly. Although lots of ECM tends to make them worthless. Now if you were fighting a star of omnis with only 3025 tech it would take 12 mechs or more to defeat a clan star of 5. Zell would be to the advantage of the IS player for this very reason. Get the other 7 mechs within their firing range before the first 5 are killed. Tight maps do negate speed and ranges.

One last thing, this is a GAME. Not WAR. It's a wargame simulation. Nobody dies in this. Something to remember kid. As it's a game, you have to be willing to follow the same rules as the other side. Or you just might find yourself not being able to find opponents to fight you. In this game, "do unto others you would have them do unto you" applies more appropriately.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 June 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm before your reactor get critical temperature...lets cool down a little bit.

First it is pointed out that Zell is more as a rule for clan warriors it is their way of life. For us as gamer not rissen in such a strict way Zell is a handicap - of course. However the reason why Zell was for warriors invented may have two reasons: a duel luck more honorable and you need a way to handicap the advantage of clan weapon and clan pilots on the table...in mwo however one advantage isn't existing the second is maybe not of such importance.
However...Zell and Clan Honor is a way to make the game rich - it is/should be challenging to play a Clan Warrior

[Parazaine]

Enforcing RP is frankly not going to work. Enforcing Honor is not going to work either. The simplest solution, as in the tabletop game, is a points value system that will inevitably result in Clan players fighting at a numerical disadvantage to make up for their better tech.

This system would not be open to exploiting, would not be reliant on individual honor or adherence to Zell....it's frankly the only way in a game like this. Very few clan players will be sticking to clan honor (which as has been pointed out was mostly used for clan v clan combat anyway)

There would be no need for comlicated game-mechanics, tagged targeted enemies, adjusting experience etc...just use a points value system to balance the sides....easy.

[Rummy Kegstealer]

I think the Clans should be NPC. =D

[UnLimiTeD]

There's plenty of nerdrage going on here.
So, to get down to the gameplay values, how do we encourage, not force, clan players to stick to honor rules that they should stick to according to canon?
What would be the easiest way to do so?
And how can we make such a system simple, easily understandable, and feel rewarding to those players that don't do it for the RP (which will be the majority)?

Possible measures:

1.) One Binary versus 3 Lances. There you go, IS has 20% numerical superiority. Makes sense fluffwise, as well.
2.) Less points for Assists. Example: half points for Assists for clan players if the target was shot at in the past 5 seconds.

3.) MAYBE Bonus points for dealing damage to only one mech; Think of it as a combo multiplier, going linearly up if you deal damage to only one target, and slowly decaying.

4.) Slightly higher maintenance costs, no use of C3 units, tag and narc in the first month.

Other options obviously do as well. Essentially, we should think of anything that positively encourages dueling, with as few penalties as possible; And if, sell those positively; Less assist points? IS just get more, not clans less.
Ideally, any of those ideas (I suppose more people have some?) can be gradually lowered as IS and merc players gain limited Access to clan tech salvage.
I suppose the 10 vs. 12 concept is the easiest and most obvious to do and the longest to stay.

[Thorn Hallis]

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

4. Oh, and your WRONG about IS not using zell. Your obviously not a Draconis Combine player. They do follow a form of zell, called Bushido.

I guess you ment the Clans use some form of Bushido duel rules which they call Zellbriggen.

[phelancracken]

Bushido is a samurai warrior code. Zellbrigen isn't exactly the same. I have noticed that in the canon that clan warriors don't exactly perform seppuku......Bondsman yes, but serious difference there.

[Jaroth Corbett]

LordDeathStrike, on 04 June 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

one small modification, no need to force clanners to be unable to fire first. if they do fire first, they get 0 reward, if they hold fire until engaged they get reward.

this way its not forcing zell. if you dont use zell, you just dont win the game, you get 0 reward for the killing. if you do use zell, you get cookies (rewarded whether you won or lost, better rewarded for useing zell and winning, but if you dont use zell you lose no matter what)

as a reward for IS players, if you use zell, even if you lose the game, you get more reward then winning without useing zell.

this way EVERYBODY wins more then without useing zell tactics. and i think we can all aggree that if it rewards everyone more, then everyone wins this way.

Who says firing first is against zell?

[Stormwolf]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 June 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Who says firing first is against zell?

Nobody, it's more like a sign to the enemy pilot that he/she has the honor of being your opponent.

[Kartr]

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Okay kid, and I do mean kid.

Lol man you made my day, I was laughing so hard after I read this!!

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

You obviously don't get it and I would love to explain this in person, C3 is in violation of getting zell due to you having someone ELSE participate in a battle for your benefit. Yes, clans have better range, but they still can't just have another mech shorten the range to effectively short for nothing just by being there.

Oh no I completely understand, C3 violates Zell by allowing teamwork that's why Clans never develop anything like it. My whole point has always been twofold: 1. The Clans are extremely OP and the IS needs something to give them an edge. 2. That while the Clans may not actively use Zell against the IS, Zell is so ingrained into their way of thinking that they will subconsciously continue to use it. Which is how I get my conclusion that Zell or at least aspects of it can be used to degrade the Clans edge.

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

2. Your saying anything is fair in war, so guess what? That's why the clans don't give zell. IS want's to cry and force clans to fight crippled. Then YOU fight that way. Seriously. I am challenging you to fight that way before trying to make the clans do that. Canon has showed that Inner Sphere in general wasn't going to use honor, so the clans changed tactics. Suddenly, the IS complained due to not having an "unfair" advantage. You want to win at all costs by using the clans as whipping boys. I would love to see you fight 5 clan mechs against 12 3050 tech or better IS mechs.

First Zellbrigen isn't "honor" its just a bunch of idiotic rules, just like Bushido isn't. Any "code" that cripples your soldiers when they're fighting a war and forces them to do stupid things like lead sword waving charges across open ground into heavy machine guns, or discouraging the use of teamwork and supporting arms, isn't honorable its just idiotic.

Yes the IS wants the Clans to fight crippled, because the Clan mindset already cripples them. Players won't be crippled by a lifetime of living in the Clans with idiotic Zellbrigen which means the already extreme technological edge won't have anything slowing it down.

No Canon doesn't show the Clans changing tactics, 20 years later they're still singling targets out for single combat and bidding down their forces, nor the IS complaining during those times that the Clans did throw off their psychological shackles and fight like real soldiers. No I don't want to win at all costs, nor do I want to use the Clans as whipping boys, what I want is for the game to achieve balance so that the Clan Players don't instantly roll over and destroy IS players with no contest. I want the IS to have chance at winning, that doesn't exist if you just place players with Clan tech against players with IS tech. I want to see Clan players who aren't crippled by having been raised Clanners, have restrictions placed on them that simulate the crippling cultural mindset of Clanners.

Forcing Clan players to follow Zell or at least punishing them severely does not give the IS an "unfair" advantage the way you claim. It merely helps counter act the unfair advantage that the Clans already have which will make the game more fun for both sides. Since the IS won't just die every time they face the Clans and the Clans will actually be provided with a challenged when fighting the IS.

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

3. Clan Wolf was opportunistic due to again Wolf's Dragoons starting their recon back in 3005. Yes, back then. 40+ years of recon work tends to change ideas of what works.

The Wolves were flexible in how the interpreted Zell before 3005! The recon showed that the IS wasn't as weak as the expected and underscored the need to fight as a real military (suspending Zell altogether) and ensure their logisitical situation.

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

4. Oh, and your WRONG about IS not using zell. Your obviously not a Draconis Combine player. They do follow a form of zell, called Bushido. In the source book of Wolf's Dragoons a Kuritan warrior refused to allow his company to attack Jaime Wolf's Archer after it had heat shut down. They allowed him to return to his unit and later they fought together and then against each other at Misery. So, yeah, Again, Bushido is similar in many ways to zell. Try harder next time kid.

No the Combine doesn't follow a form of Zell, they follow Bushido. Bushido is not a form of Zell, because it existed before Zell was even conceived of. I'll agree that Bushido is similar to Zell, as they're both a set of rules that existed in a particular culture and cripple their soldiers when fighting a real war.

So yeah the Inner Sphere doesn't use Zell, the Draconis Combine uses bushido which is less crippling than Zell but still idiotic. The Draconis Combine =/= the entire Inner Sphere. Also that Kuritan Warrior was an *****, if Jaime Wolf's Archer is shut down and he's helpless you force him to surrender! You don't let him power up and rejoin his forces.

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

5. Zell isn't burned into their heads that the clans are stupid. You yourself stated that Clan Wolf was opportunistic. They have learned and other clans learned to. Far faster than the IS wanted them too.

Yes Zell is burned into their heads, its called conditioning. You train a person to react to a situation a certain way and you make them practice it over and over and over again so that when it happens in real life they don't have to think about it. I still have conditioning left over from my 4 years in the Marine Corps, I can respond to "contact right/left" or "near/far ambush right/left" or a rocket misfire, etc., without having to think about what I'm supposed to do.

I'm conditioned after only 4 years of training and practice, training and practice that started 18 years after I was born. Clan warriors are trained from pretty much birth to engage enemies according to Zellbrigen, that conditioning can't just be turned off. Even if the Clan suspends Zellbrigen, the warriors will subconsciously fall back on to it during the heat of battle because it's how they're conditioned.

The Clans continue to use and follow Zellbrigen even into the "Dark Age" series, they may have adapted some, but they're still crippled by Zellbrigen and their conditioning to follow it. Disregarding that, its pretty obvious that the Clans didn't learn to stop using Zell fast enough. The IS royally kicked the Clans arse 9 years after the invasion started.

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

6. Finally if you do BV, zell isn't needed. That's your zell right there due to the clan player having quite a few LESS mechs than the IS and being outweighed. Then it's a matter of using tactics of not allowing the IS to bum rush you to bring superior physical attacks and use your weapons range advantage. So from a stand point of fairness and having played, read and breathed table top battletech, you sound like a clan hater that wants to beat them up just so he or she can feel better instead of a fair game. I have played both clan and IS mechs. I play the mechs that I want to play, when I play.

I don't want BV because it's an artificial construct with no basis in reality. This boggles my mind, you're ok with crippling Clan players based on an artificial Battle Value system that has no basis in canon or reality, but you don't want to have them handicapped by forcing them to use canon conditioning and other realistic considerations like less Information Warfare abilities/assets?

Why would you want it to be like that? Why use an artificial system with no basis in canon, or logic, or the framework of the game? Why not use things that encourage Clan players to behave like Clans, restricts them from in game assets that they wouldn't use canonically anyway, and generally creates a more dynamic game with more clearly defined advantages and disadvantages for both sides?

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

You say clans are broken, not really. You can negate their advantages with tactics and numbers. Are they powerful? Yes. But they are not all powerful. C3 is a vicious system that can really ruin clanners days. C3i is even more deadly. Although lots of ECM tends to make them worthless. Now if you were fighting a star of omnis with only 3025 tech it would take 12 mechs or more to defeat a clan star of 5. Zell would be to the advantage of the IS player for this very reason. Get the other 7 mechs within their firing range before the first 5 are killed. Tight maps do negate speed and ranges.

Ok this paragraph confuses me, now you're saying Zell would give the IS an advantage to help balance the game. That's what I've been saying all along! No I've never said the Clans were broken, all I've ever said is that their technology is over powered and there need to be constructs that degrade that advantage so that the game is fun and balanced for both sides.

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

One last thing, this is a GAME. Not WAR. It's a wargame simulation. Nobody dies in this. Something to remember kid. As it's a game, you have to be willing to follow the same rules as the other side. Or you just might find yourself not being able to find opponents to fight you. In this game, "do unto others you would have them do unto you" applies more appropriately.

Seriously, there are no rules in MWO! This isn't Risk, or Chess where all the sides are even, or we have a rule book to make sure everyone plays fair. This is a video game that is programmed so that the rules, such that they are, are already built into the game. I can fight you in whatever fashion I want and if the coding allows it, it's not "against the rules."

We' have two sides, one of which has an unfair advantage in any even fight. I'm talking about creating "rules," programmed parameters, that balance the game and make it fun. I've never suggested that the IS gain an unfair advantage over the Clans or break the "rules" (whatever those are). I've only ever suggested that the "rules" or game parameters be written so that the Clans unfair tech advantage is balanced by restricting them in other ways. Ways which I might add the devs have already hinted at that they're exploring.

Edit: btw just curious how old are you? (since you call me "kid" which made me laugh since no one has called me that since I got back from Iraq )

Edited by Kartr, 06 June 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[Tank]

Reminds me of some role play when played Ultima Online, weird or not but some players actually played game following "8 Virtues", adding nice tone to gameplay of the server.

I think some clans must just show that they follow Zellbrigen and people may reach to understanding that it's more fun that way.