1089 replies to this topic

[Xenok]

In my view this largely addresses ECM with one exception.

ECM and streak missiles provide a combination that is too effective. As a rule if I have ECM on a mech I have streaks on that mech. Being able to block the streaks of the other guy while yours land is a bit much. I think at the very least, packing and active ECM should extend out the time it takes for the packing mech to get a lock on, maybe double the time it takes to get a lock, maybe less but some penalty needs to be there on achieving a lock for the ECM packing mech.

[DocBach]

ShinVector, on 23 April 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Honestly since Sniper Wars and with the introduction of Ballistics HSR.

I am finding ECM Raven to be less of a factor in brawls. I have tagged a number of mediocore raven pilot with quad PPCs already.

The only problem I have is with Wipsy and his Rat (ECM Spider) fighting in a duo. (I had my revenge with a well planned jennerD+ecm cicada combo ambush.)

Being able to shoot someone with direct fire weapons doesn't balance the fact that missiles still are useless, and even more useless now that ECM 'Mechs are still immune to them and they do crap for damage. One broken mechanic to fix a different broken mechanic just leaves the game full of broken mechanics.

Edited by DocBach, 23 April 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Aeolus Drift]

TaintedDoughnut, on 20 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

That's a nice thought but I think we have a higher chance of Unicorns riding in on rainbows than that being true. Again track record speaks for it's self the forums "are just this unimportant small percentage" and they brain scan every player through their monitor using some type of mystical art and those of us posting are all just sad little plebs beneath their notice.

I think I know a number of members of the brony community would be inclined to disagree with you about your unicorn-riding-on-rainbows analogy *alicorn twilight*. That being said I am sadly inclined to agree with you. PGI does seem to be trying to divert attention from their most vocal critics by shoving the feedback forum here were only the dedicated members of the community will notice.

[Shakespeare]

As much as I'd rather ECM's functionality be further reduced, I can say with some certainty that the PUG game has definitely improved with friendly sig jamming removed. I see a lot more ad hoc cooperation even when attacked by ECM mechs now, than I did before the change.
No, it's not as much as I'd want, and we won't know for sure how much ECM still throws things until LRMs are back in fighting shape, but for now, small improvement is still improvement.

[Corvus Antaka]

For myself the big issue with ECM remains that scouts cannot effectively get behind the enemy and hold locks for their LRM boats. while TAG is a reasonable counter for this, it still requires the scout to dedicate a hardpoint & remains highly unreliable if you lose the TAG at all.

I understand why ECM was given this as before it was too easy for scouts to hold locks on the entire enemy, but to have LRMS work as effective counters to jump-snipe warrior I believe that the long range stealth effects of ECM need to be re-evaluated.

[ShinVector]

DocBach, on 23 April 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Being able to shoot someone with direct fire weapons doesn't balance the fact that missiles still are useless, and even more useless now that ECM 'Mechs are still immune to them and they do crap for damage. One broken mechanic to fix a different broken mechanic just leaves the game full of broken mechanics.

So your arguement is "I don't want to use direct fire weapons versus ECM mechs."
The game MUST let me use missiles versus ECM mechs !!

Calling the game broken so, it fixed to your liking ?

The nerfing of SRMs especially has indeed made the ECM Raven less powerful.
The buffing of HSR ballistics has increased the accuracy of weapons so, much that it impacting the lifespan of light mechs in general.

I can only agree that LRMs are the ones that are WEAK at moment.
When you say missiles, do you mean easy mode LRMs ?

--

ECM is not god mode. With the right team they can be taken down easily right now.
Anti-ECM builds that I have right now.
1. Quad PPC/ER PPC Stalker. The ER PPC version is very effective versus the raven. The two shot shutdown actually works to your advantage as anti Streak counter measure. The raven can only that so, many hits before it dies.
Had the chance to 1v1 a raven pilot in Alpine and he was pissed when he was eventually blown up.
2. ER PPC + Streak Jenner D. I am just trying out this one again right now but unfortunately, I had not had the chance 1v1 ECM light mechs just yet. Wreaks havoc on ECM Atlas though. LOL.


--

After reading the last few posts. I realise the word LRM being mentioned quite often.
Try upping your skills on the non-easy mode weapons people.

Edited by ShinVector, 23 April 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[DocBach]

I haven't used LRM's in a game since closed beta, gameplay wise ECM doesn't affect me at all; however, I have a problem with binary systems which curb variation in a game. My argument isn't that I can't use direct fire weapons against ECM 'Mechs, it's that any items that force you into playing a meta game where only certain weapons or strategies are viable is a bad system for a game.

Below are my stats from the 40 or so games I've played since they started keeping track of weapon stats. No, my problem isn't with the fact that I'm an LRM user that can't adapt, my problem is with terrible game mechanics which stunt the enjoyment and longevity of my interest in said game. I want to like this game, but the "meta" has become a homogenized, sterile battlefield that repeats itself like Groundhog's Day.

Edited by DocBach, 23 April 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

ShinVector, on 23 April 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

So your arguement is "I don't want to use direct fire weapons versus ECM mechs."
The game MUST let me use missiles versus ECM mechs !!

Calling the game broken so, it fixed to your liking ?

The nerfing of SRMs especially has indeed made the ECM Raven less powerful.
The buffing of HSR ballistics has increased the accuracy of weapons so, much that it impacting the lifespan of light mechs in general.

I can only agree that LRMs are the ones that are WEAK at moment.
When you say missiles, do you mean easy mode LRMs ?

--

ECM is not god mode. With the right team they can be taken down easily right now.
Anti-ECM builds that I have right now.
1. Quad PPC/ER PPC Stalker. The ER PPC version is very effective versus the raven. The two shot shutdown actually works to your advantage as anti Streak counter measure. The raven can only that so, many hits before it dies.
Had the chance to 1v1 a raven pilot in Alpine and he was pissed when he was eventually blown up.
2. ER PPC + Streak Jenner D. I am just trying out this one again right now but unfortunately, I had not had the chance 1v1 ECM light mechs just yet. Wreaks havoc on ECM Atlas though. LOL.


--

After reading the last few posts. I realise the word LRM being mentioned quite often.
Try upping your skills on the non-easy mode weapons people.

Sorry but you're off-track here, because in 8 mans where every team fields 2-3 ECM mechs LRMS are completely worthless. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

ECM is not god-mode, but the LRM issue is a serious issue, especially with the current jumpsniping. LRMS are the ideal counter to jumpsnipers, and without ECM I doubt we ever would have seen the issue arise as in closed beta scouts & lrms could flush standing still snipers with ease.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 23 April 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[ShinVector]

The ideal counter to jump sniping is to remove the function from the game, like it has been for many other FPS games.
First being counter strike.

If I am not wrong, this nerf is already in the plans to add cockpit shake in jumps to reduce the accuracy.

The counter for LRMs and other guided weaponary is ECM. If I am not wrong they (PGI) currently happy with the way it is.

LRMs just need their damage upped a bit to make the LRMers happy.

By the way.. Would you have been happy if the Assault mech tourny was dominated by LRM boats ?? The only reason that didn't happen was due to LRM nerfing.

We will see how this goes after the missiles revamp.

Anyway.. 8 mans are 8 mans... No rules applies to that at all.
8 ECM Atlas vs. 8 AC40 Catapluts or jagers. Who do you think will win ??

I am referring to 4 mans group where most of the games are played.
This is ON TOPIC.

[ShinVector]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 23 April 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

For myself the big issue with ECM remains that scouts cannot effectively get behind the enemy and hold locks for their LRM boats. while TAG is a reasonable counter for this, it still requires the scout to dedicate a hardpoint & remains highly unreliable if you lose the TAG at all.

I understand why ECM was given this as before it was too easy for scouts to hold locks on the entire enemy, but to have LRMS work as effective counters to jump-snipe warrior I believe that the long range stealth effects of ECM need to be re-evaluated.

When I am a light pilot too.
The counter was to use an ECM light spotter of any kind that is fast.

Works as long there is only one ECM mech but you need to pick your targets carefully.
The idea is that LRMs will kill the target so, fast before the enemy can retaliate.

There are already options available. It is a matter whether people want to change their tactics.

Edited by ShinVector, 23 April 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[ShinVector]

DocBach, on 23 April 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

I haven't used LRM's in a game since closed beta, gameplay wise ECM doesn't affect me at all; however, I have a problem with binary systems which curb variation in a game. My argument isn't that I can't use direct fire weapons against ECM 'Mechs, it's that any items that force you into playing a meta game where only certain weapons or strategies are viable is a bad system for a game.

Below are my stats from the 40 or so games I've played since they started keeping track of weapon stats. No, my problem isn't with the fact that I'm an LRM user that can't adapt, my problem is with terrible game mechanics which stunt the enjoyment and longevity of my interest in said game. I want to like this game, but the "meta" has become a homogenized, sterile battlefield that repeats itself like Groundhog's Day.

I don't about you. I am still finding the battlefield highly chaotic with ever major 'CHANGE' Pgi does.
HSR is truly a game changer.

Current flavour of the month is Snipa-wars in Highlanders so, much so that it has pissed off some of my House mates who only like to brawl.

I just realised that I haven't used LRMs since stats was implemented. Lol..
Waiting for community warfare so, we have something to fight for.

Meanwhile I am in the battlefied trying to learn how each weapon system, should be used.

[DocBach]

ShinVector, on 24 April 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I don't about you. I am still finding the battlefield highly chaotic with ever major 'CHANGE' Pgi does.
HSR is truly a game changer.

Current flavour of the month is Snipa-wars in Highlanders so, much so that it has pissed off some of my House mates who only like to brawl.

I just realised that I haven't used LRMs since stats was implemented. Lol..
Waiting for community warfare so, we have something to fight for.

Meanwhile I am in the battlefied trying to learn how each weapon system, should be used.

The reason the jump sniping is flavor of the month is because PGI's choice in weapon balance. LRM's were a problem way far back and instead of fixing them they introduced overreaching systems like ECM. The problems in this game with singular weapon types being the only truly viable options can be fixed, partly by upping the damage on missiles (I'd say remove splash damage completely, its one of PGI's innovations they added like many others failed dismally when placed in the Battletech system that it never existed in), but also by toning down ECM's complete defeat of missiles. ECM negates radar, all electronics, missiles, and AMS, all in 1.5 tons of space. That's an overpowered system which creates balance problems.

Agreed totally that there should be screen shake when jumping - the problem is, the long range PPCs and Gauss still run the game, which means if people aren't jumping they'll just be doing berm drills around mountain sides like you see PPC Stalkers doing.

[CECILOFS]

Simply put, if I spend the majority of my tonnage and crit slots on a weapon system, that weapon MUST be capable of dealing significant damage (relative to the tonnage and crits used). For an LRM boat the investment is massive and given the hoops you have to jump through to hit with them, the damage should be decent too. There's no valid argument against that, just like if you sink 30t into ACs you want to be able to kill something with them.

Since PGI are refusing to nerf ECM, I think they need to make Tag and Narc have seperate hard points. Firstly this would mean you don't sacrifice weapon slots to beat ECM which doesn't take a weapon slot and secondly it would let mechs like the A1 equip Tag.

When using LRMs or Streaks in my A1 I find it infuriating that 65t worth of mech and weapons can be 100% nullified by a 1.5t, 1 crit piece of equipment. And I don't mean "nullified" as in making it hard to use...I mean if you get seen by an ECM Raven, Spider or Cicada you may as well power down because there's nothing you can do about it besides just take 6xSRM-6 instead.

Edited by CECILOFS, 24 April 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Twisted Power]

ECM has made brining LRMS into a match a gamble and thus a bad idea if you want to consistently win.
The LRM damage nerf has made it worse and now it is not worth playing anything but a LRM boat, assuming you even want to bother with LRMS (IE, bringing a single LRM 15 is pointless and ineffective).

The current ineffectiveness of LRMS has led to snipe warrior and mech hump online. Game play right now has two options:

• Long range pinpoint alpha or boating (large groups of PPC, gauss, long range AC’s)

• OR close range pointblank mech humping. (AC 20 and SRM 6 Boat and/or spaming while running pointblank into a mech because you can’t be knocked down)
  
  
  This is all due to the fact that you can hide from LRMs at all ranges.
  The purpose of LRMs are to be able to use long range indirect fire to damage and weaken mechs and force them to either engage in combat or run away and hide.
  
  The other one is to weaken and damage mechs in the open at medium ranges that try to brawl without any cover.
  
  Since you cannot do either of due to the fact that ECM, which is prevalent in most games, stops LRMS from working you have game play that is poor and punishes those who strategize and rewards those who like to have bad tactical placement. (IE stand in the open, stand still and not have to move)

Edited by Twisted Power, 24 April 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[TksFtw]

I would like to see BAP come into play when ECM is around, at least to some degree. As it can be equipped to anything, a counter would be out of the question, but maybe something to make dealing with ECM a little bit easier for the kind of mechs that would equip BAP.

As it increases sensor range, it makes sense that it'd also increase the window in which you can target an ECM'd mech, much like the sensor range module.

Also, Guardian ECM (according to Sarna) isn't supposed to interfere with hard locks from LRMs/SSRMs, and while it does do so currently, maybe equipping a BAP will allow you to keep lock on something in the distance if some Spider is hiding near your team so long as the target isn't ECM'd or is TAG'd. It does give benefits to locking onto targets, after all, but as we don't want a BAP to counter ECM by itself, the effect shouldn't be absolute. One idea could be that a BAP equipped mech with LRMs or SSRMs could still maintain a lock when ECM is nearby, but the lock-on times are lengthened (Double? Maybe tripled?), less grace for the lock on when the aiming reticle is off-target and quicker de-locking when not aiming on-target. Maybe unstable lock-ons in some fashion, such as a percentage of missiles not acquiring lock-on data from the mech and missing, or the lock-on just wavers on and off, giving a chance to miss completely, though maybe TAG/Narc could assist in some fashion there. There should at least be some benefit, but not so much as to really counter ECM. None of this should affect a mech under ECM, as for that there are already TAG lasers, just for when enemy ECM is near your mech. This would mean equipping BAP to your mech would allow you to use LRMs/SSRMs still with nearby ECM, but with much greater difficulty and/or to lesser effect, which would let ECM still have a strong impact while letting BAP stop complete negation of both missile systems just by being nearby. We definitely don't want LRM warrior again though, so while it would be nice for indirect fire support mechs to have an option to make a small difference against ECM for themselves, it has to be kept mostly minor so ECM can still do its job.

tl;dr BAP should allow you to use LRMs/SSRMs while under the effect of nearby ECM but in a (possibly much more) limited fashion so it doesn't completely negate nearby ECM's effects, and shouldn't change anything on mechs under ECM themselves.

It (Sarna) also says that BAP equipped units would be aware of ECM screwing with their sensors, so maybe to give scout mechs that would take it some extra utility, like the Raven, they could get some benefit against ECM with an equipped BAP as well. A potential idea could be detecting nearby ECM a little bit earlier, before it gets into disrupting range.

Heh, I guess in a way I'm kind of asking for a buff for BAP rather than a nerf for ECM, but as it'd mostly have to do with ECM, I suppose it fits here? These are really my only thoughts on the state of ECM in general and what maybe to change about it. Aside from the fact it's not supposed to block missile lock-ons normally, it adds some interesting gameplay and doesn't bother me too much, so it's mostly fine as it is now.

[ShinVector]

CECILOFS, on 24 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Simply put, if I spend the majority of my tonnage and crit slots on a weapon system, that weapon MUST be capable of dealing significant damage (relative to the tonnage and crits used). For an LRM boat the investment is massive and given the hoops you have to jump through to hit with them, the damage should be decent too. There's no valid argument against that, just like if you sink 30t into ACs you want to be able to kill something with them.

Since PGI are refusing to nerf ECM, I think they need to make Tag and Narc have seperate hard points. Firstly this would mean you don't sacrifice weapon slots to beat ECM which doesn't take a weapon slot and secondly it would let mechs like the A1 equip Tag.

When using LRMs or Streaks in my A1 I find it infuriating that 65t worth of mech and weapons can be 100% nullified by a 1.5t, 1 crit piece of equipment. And I don't mean "nullified" as in making it hard to use...I mean if you get seen by an ECM Raven, Spider or Cicada you may as well power down because there's nothing you can do about it besides just take 6xSRM-6 instead.

They should give it the A1 (or Streaks in general) the Dumb Fire option it is suppose to have, I guess.
Not a big fan of the Streak Cat though... That 2 homing Alpha light killing sonOfverB, but that was another Era...

Edited by ShinVector, 25 April 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Ryebear]

It kind of pains me to hear people call LRMs "easy mode". LRMs havent been particularly easy to use since they fixed them post release of Artemis. They were and are exceptionally unfun to fight against, but easy to use? No.

ECM and the current damage make them borderline useless at the moment.

I assume the damage might get a small tweak up to something resembling useful and an increased missile speed sometime down the road will help make them viable at ranges greater than ~500m, even with the state of ECM they will become a worth while weapon type.

[hammerreborn]

Twisted Power, on 24 April 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

ECM has made brining LRMS into a match a gamble and thus a bad idea if you want to consistently win.
The LRM damage nerf has made it worse and now it is not worth playing anything but a LRM boat, assuming you even want to bother with LRMS (IE, bringing a single LRM 15 is pointless and ineffective).

The current ineffectiveness of LRMS has led to snipe warrior and mech hump online. Game play right now has two options:

How?

Seriously, how is an LRM nerf related in any way to snipe warrior/poptarting.

LRMs aren't a counter to sniping or poptarting, because at the range of snipers, a) lrms can't reach and if they are within 1000, because of LRMs speed it's trivial for a sniper to move back behind cover, especially when poptarting.

Because of suppression? Great, chuck your limited ammo into a wall while the other 3 poptarts jump up and core you in 2-3 hits.

On the other hand, how is the LRM nerf related to brawling. Brawling is more effected by the snipers becaues sniping is just as effective at short range than at long (no 180 damageless bubble). LRMs only worked as suppression here, but poptarting has easily taken it's place and is much, much deadlier than a 5 LRM stalker ever was.

And seeing you called it "mech hump online"....you're just completely out of your mind because that stradegy works best against LRMs...so there's no chance that a LRM nerf would have led to an increase in humping, it works the other way.

Edited by hammerreborn, 25 April 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Twisted Power]

hammerreborn, on 25 April 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

How?
Seriously, how is an LRM nerf related in any way to snipe warrior/poptarting.
LRMs aren't a counter to sniping or poptarting, because at the range of snipers, a) lrms can't reach and if they are within 1000,because of LRMs speed it's trivial for a sniper to move back behind cover, especially when poptarting.
Because of suppression? Great, chuck your limited ammo into a wall while the other 3 poptarts jump up and core you in 2-3 hits.
On the other hand, how is the LRM nerf related to brawling. Brawling is more effected by the snipers becaues sniping is just as effective at short range than at long (no 180 damageless bubble). LRMs only worked as suppression here, but poptarting has easily taken it's place and is much, much deadlier than a 5 LRM stalker ever was.
And seeing you called it "mech hump online"....you're just completely out of your mind because that stradegy works best against LRMs...so there's no chance that a LRM nerf would have led to an increase in humping, it works the other way.

To answer your questions:

1: how is it related to snipe warrior. If you can be locked onto then I would be able to hit you. Missles if fired from the right spot can hit over the cover and hills people snipe from. If you can be hit by them, then you are going to have to move. Not stand in one spot and walk up and down a hill. But because you cannot indirectly be hit you can stand there all day. Right now if you have no LOS then they have no LOS and neither can do damage. This encourages people to minimize the time seen by an opponent. OMG THAT WOULD BE POPTARTING!!!!

2: Before ECM, If you were firing you LRMS at 800-900 then you were doing it wrong. Some people did like to just stand at the back and fire at any lock they could get. That only works against people who don’t know how to play and do not know cover is. However at closer ranges LRMS will rip you up. 400-600 meters is a great range to just rip somebody's armor off.

3:LRMs were not suppression for brawling…. I don’t know how you used them, but we would make the enemy brawler who is fighting our friendly Light or brawler have to show his back to the LRMS and then he would die. Or he would have to move to an area where our team would be at a tactical advantage. Or he would try and charge the lrm boat and our friendly would shoot out his back. A jenner on your back armor means your dead if you ignore it. A medium/heavy with missiles and a light mech could take out multiple assaults with teamwork. This would work in areas with lower cover where you can’t always use direct fire. OMG real tactics! Reasons to use a mech other than an assault or boating mech!!!

4. As for the last one, what? That strategy only works if you REACH me, without ECM you can’t reach me unless you are a light! LRMS kill mechs before they reach you. ECM makes this impossible. I used to love 6 SRM A1, AC 20 kats, and the like. They would die trying to cross the map. Now in the areas where missiles could once hit you, you are immune to missiles fire and you can stealth across maps in a group, get into range and then stand point blank in my mech and fire.

5: It does NOT work the other way around. Buffing LRMS will not increase the amount of people who walk into other people and spamm. Those builds will die half way across the map. They will die to both LRMS and direct fire mechs. LRMS destroying armor and direct fire to crush and pinpoint a targeted area on a mech.


Poptarting is a valid tactic and will never go away but it can be countered with LRMS if done right.

Edited by Twisted Power, 26 April 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Jestun]

ShinVector, on 23 April 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Try upping your skills on the non-easy mode weapons people.

Ah, these posts always amuse me.

Here's how a laser works:

1. point crosshair at target.
2. click mouse button 1.
3. maintain crosshair on target for 1 sec (if this is not done damage will be reduced, but damage will be done for the time you were aiming correctly).

Here's how a SSRM / LRM works:

1. point crosshair at target.
2. maintain crosshair on target for at least 1 sec (if this is not done you are unable to fire SSRMs and very, very unlikely to hit anything with LRMs).
3. click mouse button 1.
4. maintain lock until missile hits.


lasers take 1 sec to fire and you do damage for however long you aim correctly. A very simple and forgiving weapon system - you aim correctly for 0.5 seconds, you do 50% of the potential damage.

LRMs SSRMs are useless without a lock, require you to aim for long enough to get a lock (modified by loadouts of you and the target, by whether your mech is turning, etc) and maintain the lock while the missiles are in flight. And if you do not have a lock you cannot use SSRMs at all and LRMs are realistically worthless too or if you lose lock the missiles will stop tracking and almost certainly do no damage (unless some other mech walks into them).



Which one was easy again?