464 replies to this topic

[MavRCK]

ohtochooseaname, on 20 September 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

I'd argue that the 5D spider is the best light ECM variant these days...specifically for its survivability and maneuverability. The 3L's legs just fall off so fast, I don't know why anyone bothers piloting them. The lack of jj's can also make them a liability when running around with a bunch of Jenners.

Damage. I wouldn't voluntarily duel a raven (or a jenner). A top pilot would ****** alive and I think I'm arguably one of the best spider pilots out there. Remember a raven has streaks that are constantly doing 10 dmg to you. 3 medium lasers pumping out 15 dmg consistently and 5 tons more mech to trade with you.

Edited by MavRCK, 20 September 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[MavRCK]

Diamond Jim, on 20 September 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Thanks again, MavRCK.

Makes me sad, I dearly wanted the Kintaro to be my 1st mech...I have 15 million cbills, and no mech, lol!

I like to move above 75 kph, do enough burst to tear out a component or better, and not crumple if I get pegged hard a couple of times ducking and running for cover.

Why not the Jenner-F? Crazy amazing carry-the-game laser boat?

How about the CTF-3D? Watch Villz's 2AC5, 2PPC video?

Or a Highlander or Victor?

If you really want a medium.... the CN9-A always scares mechs on the flank... see the all Centurion game above?



15 million cbills!!?! It takes a long time to grind that after the Cadet Bonus runs out.. GL Bro!

[MavRCK]

Reposting this old, old post regarding how to balance lights:

Quote

You can use this for reference: http://mwomercs.com/...and-data-12209/

If we take the Raven 3L as the baseline light ECM mech to balance against, this is my suggestion:

Commando 2D - leave alone (or, you *could* give the RA two energy hardpoints if desired which would open up the build to a 2 small laser variant)

Spider 5D - Add 2 energy hardpoints to the LA (or, you *could* add another energy hardpoint and 1 missile hardpoint)

Jenner K - Give it ECM, you have a jump-capable ECM light in the spider so why doesn't the jenner have it?

As one can infer, the Raven 3L and Commando 2D are ground-based and thus have more missile hard points. The Spider 5D and Jenner K (if it received ECM) are JJ capable and thus have less missile points and instead have energy hard points... in my mind, this balances the capabilities of the different chasis.

I haven't included non-ECM light mechs in the balance equation because ... well, I don't believe they offer much, if anything, more than the current ECM light mechs. However, if I were to try to balance this non-ECM light mechs, I would try to ensure they had 1 more hardpoint than their ECM equivalent light mech so they brought extra firepower to the team equation:

Com 1B - Add 1 energy hardpoint to LA (ie total of 2 energy LA)
Com 1D - Add 1 missile hardpoint to LA or 2 energy hardpoints to LA
Com 3A - Add 1 missile hardpoint or 1 energy hardpoint to LA
Death Knell - Add 1 energy hardpoint to LA and add 1 energy hardpoint to RA

Spd 5k - Add 1 energy hardpoint to CT, 1 ballistic hardpoint to LA, and 1 ballistic hardpoint to RA
Spd 5v - Add 1 energy hardpoint to RA, add 1 energy hardpoint to LA or 2 ballistic hardpoints to RA and 2 ballistic hardpoints to LA

Jenners are fine

Rvn 2x - Add 1 missile or 1 energy hardpoint to LA
Rvn 4x - Add 1 energy or 2 ballist hardpoints to RT

Thanks for reading... looking forward to more balanced mechs in MWOMercs!

Mav

[Jman5]

Keep the Kintaro on your radar for now. Oddly enough, I find it more competitive in tournament play than regular games.

Oh, could you do me a favor next time you record and turn the background music down some? It was hard to hear you during some of the songs.

Thanks for posting these.

[MavRCK]

Jman5, on 21 September 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Keep the Kintaro on your radar for now. Oddly enough, I find it more competitive in tournament play than regular games.

Oh, could you do me a favor next time you record and turn the background music down some? It was hard to hear you during some of the songs.

Thanks for posting these.

1. Let me know what you think of the KTO.
2. Yes, the music setting was misadjusted in my main windows audio settings sorry about that!

[ohtochooseaname]

MavRCK, on 20 September 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Damage. I wouldn't voluntarily duel a raven (or a jenner). A top pilot would ****** alive and I think I'm arguably one of the best spider pilots out there. Remember a raven has streaks that are constantly doing 10 dmg to you. 3 medium lasers pumping out 15 dmg consistently and 5 tons more mech to trade with you.

I frequently duel very good jenner and raven pilots and canconsistently beat them due to the jenner CT and the Raven legs. More importantly, however, since the spider doesn't have either of those vulnerabilities, it is better for bring up against just about everything else and in much more common situations.

[GioAvanti]

Some really good advice:

Pick a mech that you would want to play regardless of a tier list. If you like your mech; you'll do better than if you felt forced into one that was considered "best".

The tier list the OP has starts to fall off in usefulness once you get past the light mechs.... light mechs are VERY dependent on what weapons they can equip and their size. 25 tons vs 35 tons is a huge difference in capabilities and combat effectiveness..... and the actual trade off means jack right now because we don't have tonnage limits. 60 tons vs 70 tons is much less of an issue in a fight... it'll come down to pilot skill.

[GioAvanti]

ohtochooseaname, on 23 September 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

I frequently duel very good jenner and raven pilots and canconsistently beat them due to the jenner CT and the Raven legs. More importantly, however, since the spider doesn't have either of those vulnerabilities, it is better for bring up against just about everything else and in much more common situations.

Spiders - have a great profile for fighting. Their role in a fight though is more tying people up than killing. How many games are lost because a couple assault mechs MUST KILL THE SPIDER NO MATTER WHAT.

[GioAvanti]

Diamond Jim, on 20 September 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Thanks again, MavRCK.

Makes me sad, I dearly wanted the Kintaro to be my 1st mech...I have 15 million cbills, and no mech, lol!

I like to move above 75 kph, do enough burst to tear out a component or better, and not crumple if I get pegged hard a couple of times ducking and running for cover.

Not many mechs fit that description in the Kintaro's range.


Keep in mind that you get up to about 71 kph with speed tweak on a Kintaro. It has probably the *best* damage potential in the medium weight class. The trade off is that you're slower than average for a medium.... if you want speed and high burst potential... you're basically stuck with 60-70 ton range.

Even then it depends a lot on what you're fighting. I don't know many mechs outside the light and medium range that lose components with 1 burst.

[ohtochooseaname]

GioAvanti, on 23 September 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Spiders - have a great profile for fighting. Their role in a fight though is more tying people up than killing. How many games are lost because a couple assault mechs MUST KILL THE SPIDER NO MATTER WHAT.

Indeed, one of the ways I try to turn a game around or build momentum for my side is to run around the enemy backfield, blue out their rear armor and force them to be distracted by me. Also, if they areengaging my team, turning around exposes their now blown rear CT to the rest of my team. In that way, spiders sort of fit the role of tank or crowd control: you can try to "pull" an enemy squad into your team, daze/confuse 2-3 enemies fire a few crucial seconds, stealth your side to perform flaking maneuvers, and make concentrated fire more difficult by preventing target acquisition. For all of these roles the survivability is muchmore important than the hardpoints. Not saying every light on a team should be a spider, but they are a top tier mech.

Edited by ohtochooseaname, 23 September 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[MavRCK]

I think you guys are a bit off here. To start, you're confusing the competitive tournament tier list for solo queue.

If you think I can duel a top jenner f pilot like peef or adiuvo in a spider 5d - you're crazy! A good raven pilot will also chew me up. In a raven 3L there isn't a spider I fear. The spider simply lacks the dps and armour to compete. Your rationale of hit boxes in a Jenner or raven indicate to me you haven't faced a top pilot who can shoulder damage effectively. Time and look away - wait for that hit then face your opponent.

The 5d brings ECM to the team, that's what makes it strong. That's why it's ranked highly in the ECM and solo queue lists. I don't think it beats the raven 3L for tier 1 status.

ECM is very strong - watch my commando video. I carry the whole team in that 25 ton mech. But a decent enemy light should have focused me and killed me. That's its weakness - as well as a spider.

Lastly, don't over estimate the buggy lag and hsr issues that help a pug survive in solo queue. A top pilot knows how to adjust and this stuff won't help you live in a real competitive match. Spiders are easy to kill.

So thinking about this more I realized that this discussion brings up the light balance issues. What do you go think is needed to balance these mechs? I'll take the 35 ton rav 3L as the base ECM comparison and the jenF as the base non-ECM comparison.

For the Com-2d I'd like to see the option of 2 energy hard points in the arm - this would open up a dual small laser 3 ssrm build or allow one to drop an ssrm in favour of heavier lasers. The 2d will always have a rough time dealing with its 10 ton weight disadvantage but its role in tonnage drops could be viable one day. For the Spr-5d more energy hard points like 5 total would give the jenners and rav3L a run for their money despite being 5 tons lighter. But hey I'm biased - I love the spider 5d! ah heck give it 6 energy hard points please!!!

I thought a lot about the Jenner k and if it should get ECM and I think if it did it's 4 energy - 1 missile is too strong for its advantage of JJ and being 5 tons heavier than the 5d. 3 energy - 1 missile ct would work or perhaps 2 energy 2 missile ct hard point. The location of the missile hard point is important as being in the ct forces ammo to be stored in undesired locations like the leg or torsos near an XML engine.

Overall firepower should be less in an ECM light mech versus a non-ECM mech. Lasers I feel are better choices for light mech weapons than missiles or ballistics and some concern over boating of lasers should not be ignored.

Here's hoping for some buffs to the less than 35 ton light mechs.

Edited by MavRCK, 24 September 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[MavRCK]

PS: did you know that eat. me. gets the ****** treatment!? lol

[MavRCK]

ohtochooseaname, on 23 September 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Indeed, one of the ways I try to turn a game around or build momentum for my side is to run around the enemy backfield, blue out their rear armor and force them to be distracted by me. Also, if they areengaging my team, turning around exposes their now blown rear CT to the rest of my team. In that way, spiders sort of fit the role of tank or crowd control: you can try to "pull" an enemy squad into your team, daze/confuse 2-3 enemies fire a few crucial seconds, stealth your side to perform flaking maneuvers, and make concentrated fire more difficult by preventing target acquisition. For all of these roles the survivability is muchmore important than the hardpoints. Not saying every light on a team should be a spider, but they are a top tier mech.

Agree!

This works in pug play - watch my videos. I do it over and over.

But......

In competition, disciplined teams won't be so vulnerable and their lights will look to duel you. This is where the 5 ton s and only 3 energy hard points is a distinct disadvantage!

Watch the videos. I think there are like 10 now and there's a lot of discussion on light play.

[ohtochooseaname]

Oddly enough, I like the Jenner F more for pug play than for anything competitive such as 12 mans and dropping 4 mans: The 5D works best with some coordination to take advantage of the ecm effects and jump jets, whereas the Jenner F is a one-man show and is much easier to carry a team in.

[MavRCK]

ohtochooseaname, on 25 September 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Oddly enough, I like the Jenner F more for pug play than for anything competitive such as 12 mans and dropping 4 mans: The 5D works best with some coordination to take advantage of the ecm effects and jump jets, whereas the Jenner F is a one-man show and is much easier to carry a team in.

Yup. you can carry in a jenf. and with good positioning you can carry with any ecm light. the big dif is, i'll duel a jenf in a rav3L but not in a commando or spider.

Edited by MavRCK, 26 September 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[MavRCK]

GioAvanti, on 23 September 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Some really good advice:

Pick a mech that you would want to play regardless of a tier list. If you like your mech; you'll do better than if you felt forced into one that was considered "best".

The tier list the OP has starts to fall off in usefulness once you get past the light mechs.... light mechs are VERY dependent on what weapons they can equip and their size. 25 tons vs 35 tons is a huge difference in capabilities and combat effectiveness..... and the actual trade off means jack right now because we don't have tonnage limits. 60 tons vs 70 tons is much less of an issue in a fight... it'll come down to pilot skill.

You're posting opinions without experience or theory to back you up like many prior posters in the previous 17 pages. you're so wrong about the list it's mind boggling... let's do the BURN

Cataphract3d vs Dragon.

booshakala!!

The pilot skill was in selecting the right mech out of mechlab!

KO!

Next fight, no lightweights boys... this is a heavyweight-only arena!

Edited by MavRCK, 26 September 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

I know, I was not asked but the Kintro-18 is my go to medium and I doubt the next 3 will change it.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 29 September 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[MavRCK]

KTOs are being hit in the CT by streaks... known bug atm.

[MavRCK]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 02 October 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

1X needs more respect. No JJs means you can throw the extra 4 tons into combination weapons/ammo/bigger engine and more armor.

Umm.. No.. Jumpjets are defacto needed for competitive play.

Cryll Ankiseth, on 02 October 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Using a Gauss and two LL on your torsos means you can pretty much stay in cover while "poptarting" targets without having to worry about exposing your entire body to fire.

But in a non-JJ mech, you can either forward / back ... or do mini-circles.. all of which are slower than poptarts. We all know how to do this in the old K2 dual gauss sniper and then we switched to the 3d..

Why would we go back to the old sniper? Why would we choose an inferior sniper build like the gauss 2 LL over 2 gauss or ballistic / ppc.

Sorry buddy you're way out of the meta right now..

Cryll Ankiseth, on 02 October 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Another thing is the main weakness of the Phracts (especially the 1X and 3D) is their main weapons are all mounted on your right side. Smart players always go for their right-torso weapon mount first, as taking that out pretty much means you've taken out their main damage dealers. This is where the 1X is superior to the 3D in terms of build capability (Assuming your right torso was blown off taking your right arm with it).

Smart players will turn their right torsos away... umm.. I explained this very clearly in my prior videos and why this is a huge advantage...

I see your points, but I can't let this view be left unchallenged.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Good list, but I think you need to take into account some of the major leagues with added restrictions such as weight, number of a single chassis allowed, and weapons/equipment limitations. Several mechs get pulled up from lower tiers and become first stringers - Cicadas, Trebuchets, Yen lo Wang, Kintaros, possibly Quickdraws, other Cataphracts, and Stalkers come to mind. These mechs are fairly common either in low weight drop decks or when jumpjets are not allowed