276 replies to this topic

[Werewolf]

Besides the already mentioned fact that technological advantages can be countered by numerical advantages,
there's also the fact that we're talking about a persistent universe here.
To me this means that at least basic economics and a certain representation of time in the game are feasible,
which gives me two options: make Clan tech itself prohibitively expensive/valuable, OmniMech even more so
(not mentioning the fact, that, at least in the PnP's contruction rules & lore, there's a difference between
weapons that are pod-mounted on Omnis and standard weaponry, making conversions time-consuming etc.),
and/or represent Omni-technology in a way that shortens repair and/or refit cycles, compared to standard 'Mechs.

And sorry Cavadus, while I can see where your apprehension of imbalance due to Clan technology comes from,
I happen to see even more possibilities for the devs to counter this imbalance.

I'd say let's wait and see what they come up with - if they happen to show as much dedication to MWO as many
on this forum are, then we'll get hell of a game, no doubt.

[CobraFive]

Prohibiting clan tech by making it expensive is a terrible idea. That would be the definition of Pay 2 Win.

Unless what you spend real money on can in no way effect your ability to field clan tech, which I strongly doubt.

It feels like a cop-out, but maybe until clan tech proliferates to the sphere the Clans should be an NPC faction the the players must go up against together. So the first major "expansion" to the game would be the adding-in of very difficult PvE co-op missions with good rewards (Clan tech), and the second major "expansion" could be a revamp to the territory/PvP system including the clans as a playable faction, now that the tech has proliferated a bit.

[Bishop L]

Consider this, We probably won't be fighting the Front-Line units. The canon units, the ones in the books, will be facing them. We will probably be facing the Second-Line units. Those are still going to be tough to beat, because if I remember right they still had Clan level tech in them as well.

I think that if we see Omni's it will be well into the game, when we will have had time to (maybe) improve both our Mechs and skills.

[BAZZ BASHEM]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Conclusion

In the end the inclusion of both omnimechs and clan technology will devolve all end game into nothing but omni and clan tech acquisition races. IS mechs with IS tech will not be able to compete at the highest levels of gameplay which will be absolutely devastating for any leagues which spring up around BT roleplay constructs.

Factions will be wildly imbalanced and 50-75% of the mechs and equipment in the game will be utterly worthless at high level play.

So if your goal is to empty the IS factions, fill up the clans as much as possible, and then rip the hearts out of dozens of classic and iconic mechs then by all means, have your clan tech and omnis.

Do you want balanced gameplay?
Do you want balanced factions?

Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs.

Crikey 'Cavadus' if your goal here is to be controversial,then you just kicked a field goal.
The disparity of the weapons & equipement discribed as available to the oppossing factions in the BattleTech timeline 3049 is negligible.The advantages vs disadvantages of the mech chassis available in the 3049 is were the debate should concentrate.The Clans have front line OmniMechs vs the old school BattleMech designs of the InnerSphere.Star League era mechs and tech is rare(except for Wolf's Dragoons clan supplied chassis),and ComStar hasn't showed it's hand yet,and keep the ComGuards hidden untill the Battle of Tukayyid on May 1st 3052,and I sure everyone knows how the story ends.
If the MWO devs produce a script that follows what is discribed as BT canon or create an alternate reality for us to enjoy,I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

DO'H! Edit Typo

Edited by BAZZ BASHEMâ„¢, 09 November 2011 - 05:49 PM.

[Werewolf]

cobrafive, on 09 November 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

Prohibiting clan tech by making it expensive is a terrible idea. That would be the definition of Pay 2 Win.

Unless what you spend real money on can in no way effect your ability to field clan tech, which I strongly doubt.

Err, just to make sure you didn't get me wrong there - I never used the wording "real money" or such...
After all, in a persistent world we CAN hope for the use of the good old C-Bill as an in-game currency....

[T S Hawk]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

It seems like a lot of the purists around here have very little knowledge about how game balance works. Sometimes I wonder if they've ever played a video game outside of the franchise. Most of the time I conclude that they haven't.

MWO is a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Bunches of players being thrown through a match making process and then being outputted into a match.

It's also faction on faction which means it's very important that there is solid faction balance. There is something we've talked about a lot which is a guaranteed way to destroy faction balance:

Clan Tech

The simple fact of the matter is that this game can't include traditional clan technology. Ever.

Why, you ask? Because one faction, or set of factions in this case, can't be given such a devastating advantage over their opponents. In traditional MMOs the developers generally steer away from "alpha" classes. "Alpha" classes are a class which was specifically chosen and designed to be superior to everything else. This is what the clans are to BattleTech. They are the "alpha" class.

The weapons are better, the mechs are better, the equipment is better.

MMOs steer clear of "alpha" classes because they are a player funnel. People don't like being disadvantaged especially in competitive PvP. When the "alpha" class comes around they'll get their *** handed to them and then conclude that they must join them or be forced to be a lower tier of player class.

Entire MMOs have been completely ruined by "alpha" classes (I'm talking Star Wars Galaxies here). And the end result is that after a few years everyone and their mother has achieved their alpha class and things are made even worse for those who chose to play the game their way.

Except in MWO there won't be anything to unlock or earn, just a faction selection screen at pilot creation.

The average player is going to join MWO, pick whatever faction, and start playing. Perhaps they lucked out and went clan right away. Maybe they foolishly chose IS.

Eventually they're going to learn the advantages of being clan and at that moment they'll make the decision to either jump ship and change to a clan faction (even if it means starting a new character) or quit the game altogether.

There's no incentive to arbitrarily gimping one's self especially when the only real reason this imbalance exists at all is to sate a few purists' egos and stay true to some inane fluff lore which didn't even make sense at the time it was written.

I remember when the clans were introduced to TT. Players were beyond miffed as the clan tech itself was terribly imbalanced (particularly the introduction of double heat sinks). It was bad for gameplay then and it'll be bad for gameplay now.

Anyways, this advantage will obviously create a huge faction imbalance. Players will want the strongest and the best and I can assure you all that they absolutely will not give a **** about any difference between the two faction sets in the lore and they sure as well won't be playing the game by the absurd clan rules (I always LOL super hard when purists bring that up as a means to balance the two faction sets, Yeah, because some GM is going to watch every match and delete your clan mech if you don't play by clan rules, right? LOL).

MWO simply can't have advantages and disadvantages on this scale.

And let's not forget that some of the clan tech didn't even take balance into account. For instance, clan LRMs. Their weight was derived from the Mad Cat's stock loadout as that was designed before the TT weights were final. This meant that the LRM weights came from making some fluff loadout for a piece of artwork feasible rather than accounting for real balance.

It's time to fix terrible mistakes like that.

The final problem with clan tech is that since it obsolesces all IS tech in the game the tech advancement for IS players becomes nothing but a race to acquisition as much clan tech as quickly as possible (assuming clan tech can be mounted on IS mechs). This reduces every single IS mech in the game to being nothing but a clan tech refit.

The technological advantage of clan technology is simply far too great to ever allow into the hands of players.

Now, the second issue:

Omnimechs

The arguments against omnis will be very similar to the arguments against clan tech but the truth is that omnis are superior to battlemechs in every way. They make battlemechs completely obsolete.

Which means battlemechs become nothing but a worthless stepping stone to omnimechs much like how all IS technology will be nothing but a worthless stepping stone to clan tech.

You're not ever going to see any Highlanders or Cyclops running around if Sunders are made available.

The ultimate solution is to go ahead and include omnimechs but convert them to battlemechs for the sake of gameplay. That way we can still enjoy the mechs themselves but they won't destroy any hope for the rest of the battlemechs.

Conclusion

In the end the inclusion of both omnimechs and clan technology will devolve all end game into nothing but omni and clan tech acquisition races. IS mechs with IS tech will not be able to compete at the highest levels of gameplay which will be absolutely devastating for any leagues which spring up around BT roleplay constructs.

Factions will be wildly imbalanced and 50-75% of the mechs and equipment in the game will be utterly worthless at high level play.

So if your goal is to empty the IS factions, fill up the clans as much as possible, and then rip the hearts out of dozens of classic and iconic mechs then by all means, have your clan tech and omnis.

Do you want balanced gameplay?
Do you want balanced factions?

Then you know that clan tech must be excluded from the game entirely and that there can't be any technical differences between omnimechs and battlemechs.

What you are saying this is just going to be massive multiplayer solaris 7?

[CobraFive]

Werewolf, on 09 November 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Err, just to make sure you didn't get me wrong there - I never used the wording "real money" or such...
After all, in a persistent world we CAN hope for the use of the good old C-Bill as an in-game currency....

I wasn't referring to you specifically, but its a point I've seen come up more then once.

And re-reading my own post it sounded kinda combative, which, it wasn't supposed to. I guess "terrible idea" is a bit too strong for what I was trying to say

That said, while I would agree that a higher operating cost would be a good balance to the clan tech, the problem is I am running on the assumption that the in-game currency (C-Bills or what have you) will be purchasable by real money, since almost every F2P game has been that way so far.

[Tsen Shang]

Werewolf, on 09 November 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Err, just to make sure you didn't get me wrong there - I never used the wording "real money" or such...
After all, in a persistent world we CAN hope for the use of the good old C-Bill as an in-game currency....

The problem with using ANY currency to obtain clan equipment is that only a select few players will ever get it. Lets say you can only buy clan tech with "Win Tokens" or something similar. So the guys that win get the best equipment...which they use to win...to buy better...see where this is going? If they make it straight C-Bills then whoever plays the most gets the most clan tech, and since they now have clan tech, they either win all the time or start playing clans. This means players who don't play as much or don't have the time to farm out the C-Bills fall behind and possibly start losing. They'll probably eventually quit the game due to lack of balance.

Any way to obtain clan tech is not acceptable. Clan tech will become the only gear players use because it's better. Someone's mech may be an IS design but if you replace everything with clan tech, then it's not IS anymore. This is the inherent problem with clan equipment.

I feel really sorry for Cavadus because he's really trying to prove a point. It's not that he hates the clans, he's worried about the imbalance, and he should be. Any clan player who dismisses his argument because they think he hates the clans is clearly not worried about the state of future gameplay and the survival of the game itself. Before you post some silly reply about how inner sphere players are jealous of clan gear and therefore want it removed, take a minute to think about what he's actually saying. I am sure there will be few problems balancing matches. It's the metagame we're worried about, not matches.

The only real answer that I see is to not allow IS players to use clan tech. That means that no one is under pressure to farm anything or buy anything, but this also means that Clan vs IS matches will always require a larger number of players. I have no idea if that will become a problem, but it may lead to newer players or players unfamiliar with the lore switching to clans just to have the better gear.

[DFDelta]

Give players the option to participate in a "clan tech raid" once a week. (Or with a several day long "cooldown").
If successful you earn a high ammount of cbills, and maybe (5% chance for a weapon or equipment, 1% chance for a mech that is of a type that was in this battle) a single piece of clan tech.

That way clan tech is extremely rare.
And what do you do with clan tech that you don't need?
Right. Black market.
So you are a heavy and assault mech player, but you just hit the jackpot and earned a Clan Adder? Put it on the market for a price high enough to buy you an Atlas from. I promise you someone will buy it.

What this tech raid is would have to be decided.
Maybe some miniature co-op campaign in MW 3 style.
2 lances of players are dropped onto a clan occupied planet and have to reach 4 or 5 random objectives on a huge map.
If at least one mechwarrior survives all have won and have a chance for the big price.
Playtime for this "event" should be around 1h. Everyone can find at least one hour of continious playtime each week.

[Eidolon]

I'm throwing in with Tsen and Cavadus. The only point being made here is that clan technology unbalances the game. We're saying you can have your Mad Cat, just no superior technology on it. You can have your superior society, just no better weapons. Get it? I too want the next Mechwarrior game to stick as closely to the canon as possible, except when the canon breaks the game.

stormwolf, on 09 November 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

You are essentially throwing out everything that was ever written during and after TRO: 3050. The entire mobilization of then "level 2" tech goes out of the window. The Wolcott, Twycross and Luthien Salvage that was reverse engineerd to create more advanced mechs would also go bye bye since there is no reason.

This assumption is a slippery slope. If Piranha wants to march the timeline forward with Clantech and Inner Sphere tech being equivalent, and still churns out 3055 and 3058 designs, they can. It wouldn't be the first time game developers have taken liberties with a battletech computer game, and certainly not the worst.

stormwolf, on 09 November 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

The game you want to create is essentially a extremely watered down game, which is horrible.

The game Cavadus and others like him want to be made is one that is balanced for players of all factions, sort of like the Battletech setting that existed before the clans.

Edited by Eidolon, 09 November 2011 - 07:00 PM.

[Pht]

Cavadus, on 09 November 2011 - 09:44 AM, said:

Clan Tech

The simple fact of the matter is that this game can't include traditional clan technology. Ever.

This is not a "simple fact" - a given thing. This is an assertion that needs backing up.

Quote

Why, you ask? Because one faction, or set of factions in this case, can't be given such a devastating advantage over their opponents. In traditional MMOs the developers generally steer away from "alpha" classes. "Alpha" classes are a class which was specifically chosen and designed to be superior to everything else. This is what the clans are to BattleTech. They are the "alpha" class.

You presume to think that the clans will not be limited by their (silly hidebound) "honor" rules, or that the developers will also not pick up that they need to limit the overall number of clanners. One factor is simply that there are far fewer of them than sphereoids; and clan mechs are built to be balanced at a 1v2 clan/Is ratio.

I don't think the developers are so ignorant or stupid that they'll miss this.

Quote

The weapons are better, the mechs are better, the equipment is better.

They have silly rules of combat, they cost more, they're not as common, and they can't easily be repaired because they're not as common.

Why are you only looking to the technological advantages?

Quote

I remember when the clans were introduced to TT. Players were beyond miffed as the clan tech itself was terribly imbalanced (particularly the introduction of double heat sinks). It was bad for gameplay then and it'll be bad for gameplay now.

Oh, wow. Oldschool complainer! ... it's nice to see someone complain about clan tech like people whine about the WoB. Flashback!

Quote

And let's not forget that some of the clan tech didn't even take balance into account.

Were you privy to the discussion and such of the game developers of the TT game? Or is this just a bald assertion?

Quote

For instance, clan LRMs. Their weight was derived from the Mad Cat's stock loadout as that was designed before the TT weights were final. This meant that the LRM weights came from making some fluff loadout for a piece of artwork feasible rather than accounting for real balance.

Source?

Quote

The final problem with clan tech is that since it obsolesces all IS tech in the game the tech advancement for IS players becomes nothing but a race to acquisition as much clan tech as quickly as possible (assuming clan tech can be mounted on IS mechs). This reduces every single IS mech in the game to being nothing but a clan tech refit.

IS tech catches up to clan tech fairly quickly. This is a false assertion.

Quote

Omnimechs

The arguments against omnis will be very similar to the arguments against clan tech but the truth is that omnis are superior to battlemechs in every way. They make battlemechs completely obsolete.

They're more expensive; they're not as common, and in reality there are non-omnimech designs which fill their battlefield roles better than an omnimech can.

Quote

You're not ever going to see any Highlanders or Cyclops running around if Sunders are made available.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling...

Quote

Do you want balanced gameplay?
Do you want balanced factions?

What do you mean by "balance?"

Edited by Pht, 09 November 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

AdamBaines, on 09 November 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

You don't have to be a **** to people Aaron. They are just trying to give their opinions just like you. This is supposed to be a discussion. This started as a fun discussion and has turned sour.

EDIT: Man, its interesting the words this forum chooses to bleep out :-)

I apologize, I really do; it seems that my ire against the canon has indeed gotten the better of me

[Halfinax]

Eidolon, on 09 November 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

I'm throwing in with Tsen and Cavadus. The only point being made here is that clan technology unbalances the game. We're saying you can have your Mad Cat, just no superior technology on it. You can have your superior society, just no better weapons. Get it? I too want the next Mechwarrior game to stick as closely to the canon as possible, except when the canon breaks the game.



This assumption is a slippery slope. If Piranha wants to march the timeline forward with Clantech and Inner Sphere tech being equivalent, and still churns out 3055 and 3058 designs, they can. It wouldn't be the first time game developers have taken liberties with a battletech computer game, and certainly not the worst.



The game Cavadus and others like him want to be made is one that is balanced for players of all factions, sort of like the Battletech setting that existed before the clans.

You are still skipping over the simple balance solutions that many of us have offered, and (I sound like a broken record, but you guys won't listen) Battle Value accounts for the imbalance of the Clan Techs superiority. With BV you can field 2 Marauders for the same BV cost as 1 Timber Wolf. Granted if you don't use BV or any kind of system to balance 'Mechs by effectiveness then yes Clanners are imbalanced, but I am sure the developers have thought of this and have a solution. You guys are freaking out with what amounts to no information on how the developers intend to balance things.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

I apologize, I really do; it seems that my ire against the canon has indeed gotten the better of me

I can see where you guys are coming from with the clan stuff; so we'll disagree to agree
I think we all can agree on clans being in game playable... but balanced nicely


oops double post

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 09 November 2011 - 07:38 PM.

[gcmdr chris]

the way you guys make it seem the only way to play as clan would be to throw money into the game, and that is not right. should clans pay higher maintenance on their mechs? yes. but it needs to be balanced. clans should be brought in and be fully playable, all that needs to happen is a slight difference within upkeep(SLIGHT difference), and obviously, the clans should field less numbers than their is combatants.(WOAH BALANCE! O.o)

[Worstcat MK-II]

The way people fight on about this topic is like somehow every match you get into is going to be a bunch of 100 ton clan mechs with alpha strike kill capability. Maybe somehow the field is going to have teams fielding 5 Timberwolfs and maybe we'll throw in some Mad Dogs and Hunchback IIC.

Who is to say that being if the technology is either rare or difficult to find that you could afford to outfit entire teams with the best gear always. That's like taking any other game and saying (i.E. MW2) oh cause they have prestige they are gonna win. I have come into games like that new as **** and still taken down people cause no matter how good a weapon they have, player skill isn't bought.

Yeah you get those people who are **** good, and coordinate very precise with the superior equipment that they have acquired, but those scenarios are rare.

I personally think clan tech is fine within the bounds of this game, like: every. mechwarrior. ever.




Edited: grammar cause I suck.

Edited by snowleopard, 09 November 2011 - 08:21 PM.

[Kudzu]

Introducing the clans later after release might be a brilliant, if somewhat hidden, balancing move too at least as far as population goes. What if playing as a clanner requires you to reset all your learned skills you've built up or a second pilot entirely? It might also help that if you join the clans you don't get instant access to omni's, perhaps you start out in secondline mechs and earn your advancement. Couple this with always being outnumbered/outweighed when facing IS players (assuming BV is used to balance sides) and you'll see fewer people leaving the IS.

I'd also like the see the game being closer to the feel of the TT, where killing someone requires team work and focusing fire rather than who can make the most broken custom design.

[Thunder Rampage]

There is a legitimate concern about the Clan tech, but I believe the easiest way to get the game balanced is to get the Clanners to act like Clanners. Ultimately, all gaming is having the player perform a certain task in a certain way. The game may offer many different choices on how to accomplish a task, but for the player to be successful, they will usually have to subscribe to a certain gaming style or philosophy. This occurs naturally because players want to win. The reason people used the circle and strafe technique in MW4 was because it worked and it was easy to do.

The developers need to change the definition of winning for the Clanners. If the developers want the Clanners to subscribe to a certain honor system, then they need to have the game mechanics reinforce that. Instead of worrying about money, have the Clanners worry about honor. Have a player’s honor determine what Clan mechs and weapons are available to them and their price. If a Clanner wins a match dishonorable, have them lose honor and make very little money. If they lose a match with honor, have them gain honor and make more money than a dishonorable win. A system like this would even have 12 year old kids fighting honorably if it is set up right.

The criteria for success for the IS and Clans cannot be the same in the game, because they were not the same in the Battletech Universe. It is possible to redefine what “winning” actually is. It doesn’t have to be having the last mech standing.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Thunder Rampage, on 09 November 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

The criteria for success for the IS and Clans cannot be the same in the game, because they were not the same in the Battletech Universe. It is possible to redefine what “winning” actually is. It doesn’t have to be having the last mech standing.

Away with your notions of logic and alternatives, you will frighten those afraid of change.

This problem of Clan tech being powerful is not even a new issue to the history of games. Take Warhammer 40K for example, they have a solution for customization.

Each game is just capped with a certain point max and every unit/weapon has a different value. You can juice up 1 vehicle with the maximum most badass weapons that will crush anything 1v1 100% of the time, too bad the other team will be fielding like 60 units to your 1.

Think tonnage caps like in Mech Commander, but instead of it being based solely on the weight of the mech, have it be based on total value of chasis + equipment.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 09 November 2011 - 09:10 PM.

[Worstcat MK-II]

Miles Tails Prower, on 09 November 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

Away with your notions of logic and alternatives, you will frighten those afraid of change.

This problem of Clan tech being powerful is not even a new issue to the history of games. Take Warhammer 40K for example, they have a solution for customization.

Each game is just capped with a certain point max and every unit/weapon has a different value. You can juice up 1 vehicle with the maximum most badass weapons that will crush anything 1v1 100% of the time, too bad the other team will be fielding like 60 units to your 1.

Think tonnage caps like in Mech Commander, but instead of it being based solely on the weight of the mech, have it be based on total value of chasis + equipment.

This right here.