276 replies to this topic

[Thomas Hogarth]

I find myself hoping Clantech is better than IS tech. In MW4, it's hard to tell the difference. That being said, I really really hope there is some sort of adaptation of the BV system, and the matchmaker balances based on it.

Just make it like World of Tanks and its tank tiers. Tier 9/10? Good luck making a profit, much less not ending up losing money. You need a tier 5 tank around to make cash. The same could be applied here. Piloting your Timber Wolf? Have fun, because you're gonna lose C-bills on repairs. Best get the 'ol Centurion out of the garage to earn some cash.

[Datum]

I personally prefer the clans. Not because I'm elitist or anything, I think they're pricks. I prefer them because I was raised on Mechwarrior 2, so it's kind of my allegiance. I also prefer them because their mechs are SO much cooler looking.

What I wish is that they would balance their deployment or something, extremely high maintenance or something. The idea I had earlier was a caste system instead of paying for everything out of pocket, so you have to prove you are worth using the mech you drive. If you're a good player, you will advance faster into the better mechs and get more choices for deployment. If you prove to be terrible, the clans will repossess the mech and give it to somebody who will drive it right.

[Jervinator]

No Clans until August 3049... unless you count Wolf's Dragoons.

[Halfinax]

Jervinator, on 13 November 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

No Clans until August 3049... unless you count Wolf's Dragoons.

Which is likely right about the time the game will launch, but I'm not sure how they are going to handle the "unknown forces" attacking remote periphery planets that are lightly populated at best.

[Angel Mortalitas]

Thunder Rampage, on 09 November 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

There is a legitimate concern about the Clan tech, but I believe the easiest way to get the game balanced is to get the Clanners to act like Clanners. Ultimately, all gaming is having the player perform a certain task in a certain way. The game may offer many different choices on how to accomplish a task, but for the player to be successful, they will usually have to subscribe to a certain gaming style or philosophy. This occurs naturally because players want to win. The reason people used the circle and strafe technique in MW4 was because it worked and it was easy to do.

The developers need to change the definition of winning for the Clanners. If the developers want the Clanners to subscribe to a certain honor system, then they need to have the game mechanics reinforce that. Instead of worrying about money, have the Clanners worry about honor. Have a player’s honor determine what Clan mechs and weapons are available to them and their price. If a Clanner wins a match dishonorable, have them lose honor and make very little money. If they lose a match with honor, have them gain honor and make more money than a dishonorable win. A system like this would even have 12 year old kids fighting honorably if it is set up right.

The criteria for success for the IS and Clans cannot be the same in the game, because they were not the same in the Battletech Universe. It is possible to redefine what “winning” actually is. It doesn’t have to be having the last mech standing.

Fameth Sathronaveth, on 09 November 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

[Thunder Rampage had a very good point.]

Well that's an understatement

I didn't want to be dragged into this discussion as we have no information as to what the devs have in store for us regarding Clanners yet, but.....

I have to say Thunder Rampage's idea of defining what constitutes a win for Clanners as well as promoting their vaunted honour system is astoundingly elegant.

I believe it would also add depth to playing as a Clanner, a role playing element if you will. Whatever part of the MW/BT franchise I played in the past (never played the RPG) I always felt there was something missing that, from a game play point of view, set he Clans apart from everyone else. Thunder Rampage's idea would go a long way to providing that distinction and maybe, just maybe installing some of the balance people are looking for.

I hope the devs do something like this because I might be interested in playing as a Clanner should you see fit

[S3dition]

Quote

Except in MWO there won't be anything to unlock or earn, just a faction selection screen at pilot creation.

Do you know this because you are a developer or because you hacked PG's file server?

Oh wait, you don't know that. Silly me.

More witch hunting and horror mongering based on absolutely no knowledge or a single shred of credible information.

Let me explain to you, since you don't play computer games other than Mechwarrior, what a reboot is. A reboot is when a development studio writes down a few notes about an existing product, then chucks it out the window. They then proceed to rebuild everything from the ground up.

Why is knowing what a reboot is important? Because it doesn't mean that clan's are all-omnipotent beings like you said they would.

Oh, and as PG already announced - THERE IS NO FACTION WARFARE.

That's right, the entire premise of your argument is invalid. Everyone is an IS mercenary.

Care to try again?

[Halfinax]

S3dition, on 13 November 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

Oh, and as PG already announced - THERE IS NO FACTION WARFARE.

That's right, the entire premise of your argument is invalid. Everyone is an IS mercenary.

When did they announce there would be no faction warfare? From what I've read that is pretty much the entire premise of the IP.

[HIemfire]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

<snipped>
The IS has more people, resources, oppurtunity, and chance of making new tech than the Clans could ever have,

Sadly you are wrong in this case, you can thank the predecessors to the Word of Blake for that more than any of the Houses trying to kill each other (war is actually a boost to technological innovation) for holding the Inner Sphere back. Yes the first couple of Succession Wars were nasty and incredibly destructive to the infrastructure that was in place. The Third and Fourth? Not so much. Now why am I laying the regression with no counter progress at ComStar's doorstep? Look up what they were doing, what they had control of, and how deeply they had infiltrated EVERY House. A nice little example: a strange pilot, suspected in meta to be from Clan Wolverine, was pulled from the wreckage of a bizarre battle mech wearing a cooling suit (this was somewhere in the Draconis Combine). ComStar had an observer on the scene at the time who recognized the suit as Star League technology and, while no-one was looking, sabotaged it. The mech itself was not salvageable as far as I remember, though that might be an assumption on my part. Another one for you, who tried to kill off the Grey Death Legion when they found the Helm Memory Core? Shouldn't be too hard a stretch of the mind to figure it out. The Inner Sphere would have been allot better prepared for the Clans had it not been for ComStar (the warfare in the Third and Fourth war was more along the lines of pushing the enemy military off of a world). The Inner Sphere would probably have been back at least to a full production level, inter-house sabotage and all, of the non-experimental Star League Era systems/equipment and might have begun some refinements of those systems that had not been refined during the Star League era (Medium Lasers for one, though the IS ER Medium is a waste of space in groups of more than 3 in my opinion, better to just use the hole punch for a couple more meters and use an old school Medium Laser cluster and leave the IS ER Medium as the primary weapon for Scouts).

Yes I despise the Clans for their attitudes and arrogance. I hate ComStar more. They made it possible for the Clans to have that edge in the first place, Tukayyid was nothing more than an "oops, we screwed up" patch up that without Ulric Kerensky (Warden Khan of Clan Wolf, Il-kahn of the Clans at the time of the battle) would not have been possible (individuals can earn my respect no matter what group they are from).

[Name144795]

hiemfire, on 13 November 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

Sadly you are wrong in this case, you can thank the predecessors to the Word of Blake for that more than any of the Houses trying to kill each other (war is actually a boost to technological innovation) for holding the Inner Sphere back. Yes the first couple of Succession Wars were nasty and incredibly destructive to the infrastructure that was in place. The Third and Fourth? Not so much. Now why am I laying the regression with no counter progress at ComStar's doorstep? Look up what they were doing, what they had control of, and how deeply they had infiltrated EVERY House. A nice little example: a strange pilot, suspected in meta to be from Clan Wolverine, was pulled from the wreckage of a bizarre battle mech wearing a cooling suit (this was somewhere in the Draconis Combine). ComStar had an observer on the scene at the time who recognized the suit as Star League technology and, while no-one was looking, sabotaged it. The mech itself was not salvageable as far as I remember, though that might be an assumption on my part. Another one for you, who tried to kill off the Grey Death Legion when they found the Helm Memory Core? Shouldn't be too hard a stretch of the mind to figure it out. The Inner Sphere would have been allot better prepared for the Clans had it not been for ComStar (the warfare in the Third and Fourth war was more along the lines of pushing the enemy military off of a world). The Inner Sphere would probably have been back at least to a full production level, inter-house sabotage and all, of the non-experimental Star League Era systems/equipment and might have begun some refinements of those systems that had not been refined during the Star League era (Medium Lasers for one, though the IS ER Medium is a waste of space in groups of more than 3 in my opinion, better to just use the hole punch for a couple more meters and use an old school Medium Laser cluster and leave the IS ER Medium as the primary weapon for Scouts).

Yes I despise the Clans for their attitudes and arrogance. I hate ComStar more. They made it possible for the Clans to have that edge in the first place, Tukayyid was nothing more than an "oops, we screwed up" patch up that without Ulric Kerensky (Warden Khan of Clan Wolf, Il-kahn of the Clans at the time of the battle) would not have been possible (individuals can earn my respect no matter what group they are from).

The mech in question was a Lancelot and its believed that a Com Star Agent thermite bombed its interior destroying any star league tech that was salvageable.Clan tech is going to make its appearance like it or not to the cry babies its going to make an appearance. The problem is Clan technology was not even available for widespread distribution until after the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar for the most part. Any other form of technology was stolen or destroyed by Comstar because Clan tech was just either experimental Star League tech that never made it off the drawing board or refined Star League technology. Omni-mech technology in the clans was also considered heavily expensive and only front line units were able to use the Omni-mechs in battle.

I hear the concerns about clan technology and that's all. Clan Tech has its drawback, while it has range and more power, heat and cycling of the weapon are slower vs IS technology. Besides this is the same cry baby talk that every game tends to have. Its not going to be about the weapons. Someone that has all clan tech can easily loose to an IS pilot regardless of how much clanner tech is put on a Omni.

[Gunslinger2]

Pilot skill will always be the deciding factor.
Not a day goes by playing in Mekmatch where someone cant handle getting beaten by a better pilot and they cry hack or some other garbage. The usual reason they lose is due to a couple reasons 1. they chose the wrong mech/config for the map or 2. they were simply out smarted by the other pilot. Now i wont say connection speed, computer hardware , and or the weapons being used werent a factor, but more often than not its the better pilot that gets the kill, reflexes and pilot skills are 80% of the reason someone beats you, the other 20% is often just luck.
You dont have to like the fact that someone has a more powerful weapon than yours, you simply have figure out the best way to counter it. That extra range isnt going to help much if you lead them into close quarters etc etc.

All this whining doesn't say much for the pilot's behind the keyboard, man up and kick some *** or go play pac-man

Guns

[HIemfire]

wolverine, on 13 November 2011 - 10:54 PM, said:

<snipped>
I hear the concerns about clan technology and that's all. Clan Tech has its drawback, while it has range and more power, heat and cycling of the weapon are slower vs IS technology. Besides this is the same cry baby talk that every game tends to have. Its not going to be about the weapons. Someone that has all clan tech can easily loose to an IS pilot regardless of how much clanner tech is put on a Omni.

My concern is less to do with Clan Tech itself than those who will be drawn if the Clans actually become playable. Punks are punks irregardless of the game they play. Making the Clans playable would just draw those that believe a playable game has to have some way to "game" the system and get an edge (a mind set I have noticed proportionally more among heavy console players than PC gamers, but it exists in both groups). Making the Clans playable will be like placing a bucket of sugar water up wind of a dump. The swarm of flies will be amazing to see.

=Gunslinger=, on 14 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

<snipped>
All this whining doesn't say much for the pilot's behind the keyboard, man up and kick some *** or go play pac-man

Guns

Not saying this poster is one, but they are demonstrating a common attitude shown when those I am referring to are called on it.

Gunslinger, unfortunately the only "counter" to the advantages of Clan equipment available in the time frame that this game will be opening in is Clan equipment. Good piloting and tactics can only carry one so far when your opposition has huge advantages (above %150 for allot of the weapons on the tabletop) in range and damage output, increase heat cost (energy weapons) or no. It is the rough equivalent of taking one of the 7 pounders mounted on the old British MK.1s against a group carrying 125mm smooth bores (M1A2 Abrams cannon). It can do some damage, but where does the sizable advantage stand.

[T S Hawk]

Clans are going to happen. The year now is 3048 and when the game starts its 1 year before the clan invasion. But I do agree that the Clans should controlled by the AI instead of players.

[renegade mitchell]

T.S. Hawk, on 14 November 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Clans are going to happen. The year now is 3048 and when the game starts its 1 year before the clan invasion. But I do agree that the Clans should controlled by the AI instead of players.

I hope clans are not AI. That will leave half the player base out. These Devs, I have faith in. They will find a way to balance clan tech with IS tech.

[Brakkyn]

The 'Mech that Wolverine pilot piloted was a Lancelot. Just throwing that out there to show off how fantastically intelligent I are.

I agree with Clan technology being hard to balance. I also believe it is moot to argue against it, because Clan technology is part of BattleTech, and therefore, MechWarrior. It will be in the game.

I, too, advocated for a pre-Clan Invasion game. I'd hoped people would simply deal with it, knowing that somewhere down the road, Clan technology would be included.

I think the whole for-and-against debate on Clan equipment simply exemplifies how much some people think its teh l33t shiznit and wouldn't pilot anything but a Mad Cat/Timber Wolf and the other group that wants things from "the good ol' days" where things seemed so much simpler.

[Gunslinger2]

hiemfire, on 14 November 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

Not saying this poster is one, but they are demonstrating a common attitude shown when those I am referring to are called on it.

Gunslinger, unfortunately the only "counter" to the advantages of Clan equipment available in the time frame that this game will be opening in is Clan equipment. Good piloting and tactics can only carry one so far when your opposition has huge advantages (above %150 for allot of the weapons on the tabletop) in range and damage output, increase heat cost (energy weapons) or no. It is the rough equivalent of taking one of the 7 pounders mounted on the old British MK.1s against a group carrying 125mm smooth bores (M1A2 Abrams cannon). It can do some damage, but where does the sizable advantage stand.

As i said earlier in the thread the clans (if done correctly) have to follow certain "rules" while IS pilots do not, this combined with a numerical advantage and good use of terrain will trim the advantage down some, then add pilot skill and it should be manageable.

Not saying there isnt an advantage towards clan mechs, but everything has a weak point. I for one look forward to exploiting it.

[Riptor]

Quote

As i said earlier in the thread the clans (if done correctly) have to follow certain "rules" while IS pilots do not

Do they now?

Tell that the usual gamer crowd who doesnt give a dime about such rules when they can get an advantage.

You are giving to much credit here. In dreamland maybe people adhere to honor rules or some such but in the dark uncaring reality of the World wide web not a single player who isnt a die hard Mechwarrior fan will care about these honor rules.

Most of them wont even visit the official forums or partake in any discussions. It will be the anonymous mass that will be bringing in the big bucks and those players are here for a game and not for the history or background.

Or to make it simple:

People want to play the game! Not adhere to some fictional history.

Im not saying that i support such behavior but sadly the reality of online gaming is just that.. people that come for a good time usually arent very interested in fluff.

Also since this will be a highly competitive F2P multyplayer title you cant really expect some magically abritrary ruleset to just solve any balance issues.

They will just read that clans have superior tech and thats that.

Edited by Riptor, 14 November 2011 - 07:37 PM.

[Amechwarrior]

hiemfire, on 14 November 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

Making the Clans playable will be like placing a bucket of sugar water up wind of a dump. The swarm of flies will be amazing to see.

...

Gunslinger, unfortunately the only "counter" to the advantages of Clan equipment available in the time frame that this game will be opening in is Clan equipment.

There are actually two different threads that discuss this. The counter to Clan tech is mandating Clan rules of honor. We all know the "whiny powergaming clan playing" archetype. We know this, the developers probably know this. They have consciously decided to move from 3015 to 3049. They must have known how min/max focused F2P and MMO PvP gamers get (I think it is proportionally more prevalent then in console gamers). These two choices did not come lightly, I think the developers will have a way to balance the Clans and Clan tech that falls into IS hands. This could range from "Nobody can make a Clan character." to the types of ideas found in those two threads. But given the type of balancing ideas we see here by mere players of games, the kinds of systems actual game developers are working on should blow our ideas out of the water. Clan play and Clan salvage are not impossible features to balance.

[Riptor]

Quote

kinds of systems actual game developers are working on should blow our ideas out of the water

Bigger and better equipped studios had less inovative ideas in the last couple of years.. most games are just a bunch of stolen ideas from other games custom tailored to a specific setting.

Look at the shooter genre.. in the last 10 years the most innovative feature that was implemented into the shooter genre was the slowmo effect XD

But then being an mostly independend (not influenced by EA or the other mass producing publishers that want to steal your soul) might actually bring some innovation. Lets hope for it.


Also about the clan honour rules....

These really arent that great of a drawback if you think about it.

There wont be any bidding between clan forces to see who can get away with the lowest amount of material fielded for the rights of first strike.

Zellbriggen? Again not really an issue seeing the almost monstrous firepower and range advantage they had in the original

Also the IS players have no combined arms to catch the clans offguard. No infantry and no tanks for fire support or baiting overeager clanners out for some prestige.

Comstar used the arrogance of the clanners and their inexperience in drawn out battle and guerillia warfare to win THAT one battle that decided everything.. namely a 15 year long cease fire.

The problem is none of that matters in an online game. Battles will consist of matches of same sized forces (atleast for IS vs IS) and the only clan honour rule i can think of that would have any effect in these kinda matches is zelbriggen 1 on 1 fighting... wich again if you compare the available tech to both sides would be murderous for any IS pilot.

There was a reason some of the DC elite forces had to comit seppuku because they kept accepting the 1 on 1 fights against clan forces due to their own samurai honor. (The head honcho of the DC had forbidden to have 1 on 1 fights against the clans but they still did it and got utterly beaten by the clans each and every time... hence the command to commit suicide)

Edited by Riptor, 14 November 2011 - 07:53 PM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

S3dition, on 13 November 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

Do you know this because you are a developer or because you hacked PG's file server?

Oh wait, you don't know that. Silly me.

More witch hunting and horror mongering based on absolutely no knowledge or a single shred of credible information.

Let me explain to you, since you don't play computer games other than Mechwarrior, what a reboot is. A reboot is when a development studio writes down a few notes about an existing product, then chucks it out the window. They then proceed to rebuild everything from the ground up.

Why is knowing what a reboot is important? Because it doesn't mean that clan's are all-omnipotent beings like you said they would.

Oh, and as PG already announced - THERE IS NO FACTION WARFARE.

That's right, the entire premise of your argument is invalid. Everyone is an IS mercenary.

Care to try again?

I don't believe that for a second. So what we'd be looking at is a MW Merc remake, but BETTER? 0_o

Do you really think they'd hamstring and limit themselves by not including faction warfare? This game is in early dev. Anything and everything could change and even if it were only mercs, we'd still be fighting for the factions.

Quite frankly why wouldn't we all want faction warfare where merc outfits can sign on for missions and bonuses if they dedicate to one house or lesser options and staying open to them all?

I would also like to see positions within the factions that a mechwarrior could obtain if he isn't a mercenary outfit, but fighitng for a house. Sort of like the rank system in World War 2 Online. Assign missions to certain planets for attack. Pillaging, general attack, infrastructure etc.
Maybe even a few positions that need to have a player voted in and has a term in office before needing to be voted in again.

And in regards to no support options......why not? I see no reason that a player can't invest in tank or infantry support which he can control the basics of movement and attack. Occupying buildings etc.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 14 November 2011 - 07:54 PM.

[Hodo]

Duffanichta, on 13 November 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

***, please close this thread it only another whining thread like some of my predecessors mentioned.

This is Mechwarrior not Battletech! SO stay open minded.

Balancing will be done! At least over time; when WE can PLAY the GAME and can help to do that.!.. (e.g. BV etc.. blabla)

Please ancient GODS help me -.- xD

This IS Battletech. As Mechwarrior is the Roleplaying aspect of Battletech.

Straight from the Sarna.net.

"MechWarrior: The BattleTech Role Playing Game was the first iteration of the MechWarrior RPG series. The system is geared towards integration and expansion of the tabletop game and provided rules for creating characters and military units. The book also provided rules for handling personal combat, as well as encounter tables for random events in adventures. The final Appendices portion of the book provides a wealth of information about the BattleTech storyline, including descriptions of each of the Successor States and ComStar, space travel and Inner Sphere economics circa 3025."

Notice the KEY statement in the beginning, "Mechwarrior: The BattleTech Role Playing Game" ?!

I know Mechwarrior was also a computer game... but even the FIRST Mechwarrior followed the table top rules to the letter.