1084 replies to this topic

[Mogney]

That solution doesnt even make sense, its arbitrary and doesnt even accomplish anything.

What you need is a threshhold of total heat generated in a single volley, and the larger it gets, a larger heat penalty is applied. It would be like you are simply overpowering the heat sinks capacity by having such a large alpha.

These numbers are completely made up and should not be used for anything, this is just to illustrate the concept:

Total heat in a solve: 15 get your a 10% increase in heat
Total heat in a solve: 20+ get your a 20% increase in heat
Total heat in a solve: 25+ get your a 30% increase in heat
Total heat in a solve: 30+ get your a 50% increase in heat

This would encourage you to space out your shots rather than do a big alpha.

What you have done will simply change 6 PPC boats it 2 PPC, 2 ERPPC, and 2 ERLL boats. Essentially no difference.

[Shumabot]

Lucian Nostra, on 11 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

What's the mentality behind that? Why not just do it RIGHT the first time? Why do something that isn't worth commenting on because it's going to change anyway? just.. bleeh a waste of time

They're implementing the system half coded. It likely has no way for weapon systems to track weapon systems of a different name.

[BlackDrakon]

OMG stop talking about the freaking ppc/erppc, this is for SRMS!!! And yes, took you long enough PGI, you shouldnt even be making a poll!!

You should be implementing the 2.0 (2.5 imo) damage buff next tuesday (16th) and when u fix the HSR then take it down to 2.0.

Splatcats blow up with 2 volleys most of the mechs before, well they should pay the price if they let a splatcat get near him.

I stated before, is not boating the problem, the problem is the lack of SRM damage buff in the current meta, what is making mediums suck, as well as the real brawlers. You now will find a beutifull brawl every game, you will see those mediums in your back, and you will FEAR the Atlas in front of u, you will fear the STK-5M again. It will give the game a total conversion with the SRMs back to where they are meant to be, in brawlers and skirmishers over the inner sphere!

[FireSlade]

PropagandaWar, on 11 July 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Your running them with Artemis. You are paying big time for that and they have to be within 100 meters soooo. Here I will put 4 medium lasers and hit you pinpoint for 20 points of damage at four tons and a range of 540meters, versus that SRM 6 at three tons (Four with Artimes) for 12 points at 270 meters scattered all over the mech . How about I hit you with 4 erppcs at 1000 meters several times for 40 points of damage pinpint? With a SRM 6 you have to time your shots and hope some hit and get close for almost all weapons to be born on you. I could throw in the ammo portion over heatsinks for this bit but its been said time and time again.

Instant gratification is the boats which I dont drive. Its the borked HSR lights its the uber alphas. Thats instant gratification. Medium pilots have to get in to get dirty and usually won't run artemis because they need speed and firepower just to compete.

Do not get me wrong here, I think SRMs need a buff just not before the fix takes place. That is like putting NOS in a car with transmission issues. Yeah you get a boost in power but without dealing with the issue all that is going to happen is something is going to break. That is why I think that this is just an instant gratification instead of a valid buff. Also medium mechs are up there in size/scale as some of the heavy mechs and Paul mentioned that the hit reg. issues was with the smaller mechs not exactly the larger mechs. This may hurt mediums more than help them in the long run.

[Wingbreaker]

Lucian Nostra, on 11 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

What's the mentality behind that? Why not just do it RIGHT the first time? Why do something that isn't worth commenting on because it's going to change anyway? just.. bleeh a waste of time

Schedules, oh forum user who knoweth everything.

Schedules.

[Master Q]

Zyllos, on 11 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Bad change for heat for a bad meta game choice...

I 100% disapprove of this change...

Increasing heat for firing multiple weapons, is not going to work. It doesn't even matter if they are the same or not, right now, the system is easy to circumvent because it only looks for the same, but once that change happens, it will still not provide the outcome you are wanting, PGI.

Players are just going to find that sweet spot and still place pin point damage onto a location of their choosing. Everything else will lag behind because either you can't fire all your weapons and hit a single location then torso twist away, or you will fire once and shutdown.

Players who want to win, which is technically everybody, only want's their damage to hit where they aim. Any system that forces players to have to aim for a long time (by forcing to chain fire or fire several small groups) will fall to the wayside because they can't control where enemy players can hit them.

The whole metagame is based on the fact that if your not placing damage onto a location that will either kill or maim a target, it's pointless damage. And the reasoning behind this is two fold:

• You can torso twist away without hurting your own DPS and aiming
  
• Pin point accuracy allows alpha strikes to aim all their damage onto a single point

As long as you have pin point accuracy, players will gravitate to loadouts that allows for alpha strikes to hit a single locations instantly and allow you to torso twist/dodge away waiting on cooldowns.


MechWarrior is built around the idea that you face off against your enemy. You lay down constant barrages on your target, not really attempting to have them land on specific areas unless you can take the time to aim to hit on those specific areas.

But MWO's mechanics are setup to force players to only want to hit specific areas because there is no penalty for doing so. Alpha striking weapons doesn't change this fact.

I hope you see that this system is extremely flawed and understand that weapon's fire has to spread it's damage out more to bring balance to entire weapon systems. As long as pin point accuracy exists, MWO will be continuouly plagued by this problem.

It has happened in all previous MW games, why would it not happen in MWO?

This. This. A thousand times this.

The problem with this game is instant & perfect convergence.

Fix that, and 99% of the other problems go away.

[MrMasakari]

I think this is a step in the right direction to get rid of the boring meta atm. Its supposed to be canon by table top rules and atm you can alpha strike continuously with no problem. Heat is not a limiting factor as it is actually intended to be. Prolonged overheating is supposed to cause damage to the 'Mech, and theres no such thing. I only wish that instead of applying this to weapons, that its applied as a generic factor, which I think is a much fairer approach and is also canon and logical.

Constantly sitting at high heat should cause a number of things from higher chances of ammo/weapon detonation to actual structural damage to the 'Mech. That is how it is supposed to be by canon. Part of the problem in my eyes is we only have some of the TT rules in, while not having some of the important ones which determine builds and usage.

Just my opinion.

Edited by Artaire, 11 July 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Tennex]

please double internals D:

[AimRobot]

not like srm buff will matter cause your dead before you get close.

[Wales Grey]

BlackDrakon, on 11 July 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

So we should stop talking about weapons in a weapon balance thread? Good logic there, bub.

I do agree that SRMs are in dire need of a buff though.

[SteelPaladin]

As much as I hate the high alpha meta, I think this is a horribly kludgy solution. KISS is an often repeated design principle for a reason. Adding another layer of complexity on to the building/balancing structure of the game is just going to make things harder on new players (who now have to remember yet another characteristic about their weapons when trying to design a mech) and make the balance equations of weapons more complex and all for what?

It doesn't actually address the issue at hand, which is that the best way to play the game right now is to hit an opposing mech w/as much firepower as you possibly can in a large burst. This limiter doesn't make sustained damage any better when compared to spike damage. All it does is restrict the ways to achieve spike damage. It does promote a bit of variety since people will have to diversify a bit to achieve their insane alphas, but insane alphas are still the name of the game.

They really should have addressed the issue by tweaking some of the existing systems they had in the game (damage, heat, fire rate, speed/accuracy) rather than adding a hamfisted new system on top of things. Additional complexity just turns off new players and makes maintenance harder. God knows PGI is already struggling w/all the balls they already have in the air.

For pity's sake people, stop treating symptoms and address the cause.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 11 July 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[KingCobra]

PGI i think your going in the right direction with alpha heat limits only thing I would add to the equation is half the weapon speeds on Gauss Riffles-ERPPC-PPC-Large Lasers-Large Pulse Lasers and AC2-AC5's.Then make the mechs 2x times more maneuverable for a more fun and skill based game. On SSRM's and SRM's I think a small buff is ok but ssrm's like lrm's should be total spread damage and splash damage. Also I would suggest on Gauss Riffles-ERPPC'S-PPC'S-Large Lasers-Large Pulse Lasers a longer weapon recycle time maybe a .30 to 1.0 second time increase. Also a 1.0-2.0 longer in-between cycle time on chain fire right now its to rapid.

[Master Q]

Shumabot, on 11 July 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

They're implementing the system half coded.

That means they're implementing the system BADLY coded. Others have had the right idea - give every weapon an Alpha Number and have it work universally rather than on a per-weapon basis.

[MischiefSC]

Dear PGI, here is my concern.

This anti-boating concept is based in the idea that too much of anything is a bad thing. While that may be possible my concern is the round-about way it's being addressed.

What it's dealing with, boating, is the result of a problem and not the problem itself.

ERPPCs had their heat reduced by 4 points and PPCs by 2 points because they were at the time that decision was made considered nearly useless. Medium lasers, conversely, had their heat increased. This was because at the time we did not have HSR and ballistic weapon hit detection was unreliable and at least with lasers you could be certain you'd do some damage. Also PPC projectile speed was increased if memory serves.

Now however HSR is in and ballistic projectiles have suddenly become far more reliable than DOT laser damage.

Now you've got a weapon that does 10 points of damage to a single location with greater accuracy (projectile speed) and at greater range than any other for only a small heat penalty. It's also half the weight of comparable ballistic weapons and requires no ammo. For the 7 tons difference between a ERPPC and an AC10 and a couple tons of ammo (bare minimum) you've got better range, faster projectile, no need for ammunition and the ability to mount a larger engine (more internal DHS) and as many DHS as you can cram in the mech. This effectively offsets whatever relative inconvenience the somewhat higher heat generated is. PPCs work on a similar principle, trading more sustained fire with a minimum range.

Lasers can not compete with PPCs now, not even vaguely. PPCs are the best sniping and brawling weapon because of pinpoint accuracy, minimal heat penalties, range, weight, crit spaces, etc.

My recommendation would be instead of the boating penalties just increase their heat back at least half way to what they were and have actual heat penalties. The damage over 100% is a great idea - in addition to that, why not have small speed/turning speed reduction as heat increases, say over 70%? Possibly a tiny reticule shake similar to JJs? Also have it briefly break missile lock periodically so that LRM and SSRM lock is unreliable at high heat. This would eliminate the problem side of boating - short bursts of absolutely ridiculous DPS in 2 or 3 precise hits.

The result being that sniping still works. Which it would with your boating penalties. What this would do though is make high heat, long cooldown designs (almost all high alpha builds) terribly dangerous in brawling. Even AC40Jags run pretty hot in repeated firing and a loss of speed and accuracy after the first 2 shots would have a brutal impact on their performance.

I am concerned that the boating mechanic itself is counter-intuitive and much like splash damage is going to produce as many problems as it resolves. Gimping the only viable builds on certain mechs (A1 for example, hunchies and BJs for another) while only providing a minimal impact on the overall problem and still leaving PPCs the unquestionable best performing weapon in the game.

For now I'd even say try the 100% heat damage thing - just make the damage very serious. Just also give PPCs/ERPPCs back some of the heat you took away from them. The impetus for their heat reduction is gone; why not roll back the fix you gave them to resolve the issue that is itself now resolved?

[Deathlike]

So... since a ninja thread detailing this in advance was removed.. I'll just repeat most of what I said there...

With respect to the limits, let me address them by weapon (in the order that they were listed in Paul's post):

PPC - 3 PPCs under the proposed system will be the same as having 2 PPCs + 1 ERPPC under the current heat model. Since they probably will not initially be considered separate (as I understand the ramblings in this thread), you've INDIRECTLY buffed an existing system. Congrats, you did nothing to stop what the existing problem.

ERPPC - Boating more than 2 ERPPC is not viable in the first place (due to obvious heat generation). So, this is a moot change.

LRM15 - This was a threat? Hello new Awesome nerf. You were SOOOO OP BRO.

Large Laser - Why is 2 the limit? Was it a serious menace that I wasn't aware of? Oh well, 3LL will probably be OK, but that's a really low bar to be had here.

Med Laser - RIP HBK-4P. Your Champion Mech is worth the poptarts that murdered you

AC20 - Like, this hurts you how?

SRM2 - Does anyone seriously boat this instead of Streaks?

SSRM2 - So, the only mech you're really hurting is the A1 AND the Stalker-5M. Wow... so scared bro.

SRM4 - This is a problem how?

SRM6 - I'm sure there's no return of the true splatcat, but you can still build a Splatcat with the "limitations" enforced on them... and since I personally mixed SRM4s and SRM6s when I had them, I wouldn't call this a serious nerf by any stretch of the imagination.

In any case... this is a terrible idea, and Paul, you should be ashamed to think this will work.

[Shumabot]

Master Q, on 11 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

That means they're implementing the system BADLY coded. Others have had the right idea - give every weapon an Alpha Number and have it work universally rather than on a per-weapon basis.

They're wrong for wanting that too. The system itself is just dumb. If they want to nerf PPC and ac40 alpha builds than they should just do so directly, rather than trying to implement some sort of idiotic cure all by upping the heat of all weapons, some of which traditionally generate almost none. There are plenty of solutions here, the ones PGI keeps trying just happen to be the worst possible.

Edited by Shumabot, 11 July 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[DisasterMedic]

For those of you wondering if PGI even understands how the mechanics of their own game works, I present to you:



If they actually knew anything whatsoever about their own product, they might stop wasting time on non-issues and focus on sensible balance fixes. Since they do not, it's kind of pointless having another thread filled with better solutions to the alleged problem which will be summarily discarded and ignored.

[Deathlike]

lol @ 2 TAG. Simply OP!

[Budor]

So this patch changes NOTHING about the sniper meta. Any Stalker, Highlander, Atlas, & Phract that has been doing it will continue to do so by just mixing PPCs/ERPPCs/Gauss.

Jenners, Quickdraws, Hunchbacks, Blackjacks that boat mediums get the finger.

SRMs stay useless until some point in the future. LBX, MGs & Flamers stay useless. HSR stays broken.

AGRESSIVE BALANCING!

[Braggart]

DisasterMedic, on 11 July 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

For those of you wondering if PGI even understands how the mechanics of their own game works, I present to you:



If they actually knew anything whatsoever about their own product, they might stop wasting time on non-issues and focus on sensible balance fixes. Since they do not, it's kind of pointless having another thread filled with better solutions to the alleged problem which will be summarily discarded and ignored.

why not go for something a bit more useful to the team such as lrm 15s and large lasers.

Your other option is fire 2 volleys with .5 inbetween each volley, and then you negate the heat penalty. Please think before you post.

Edited by Braggart, 11 July 2013 - 12:10 PM.