625 replies to this topic

[ssm]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

kidding about what.

I asked for sources, and more data, if it could be provided. and all you have to say is You're kidding?

You got the data.

Clan UAC/20 weights as much as IS AC/10. That's twice the damage/ton. On top of twice the rate of fire. Mech that carries it is faster (because XL vulnerabity is no longer a factor) and cooler (Heatsinks take less crits, and because you save tonnage through endo & ferro you can cram more of these etc.)

You don't understand that advantages of Clantech aren't just averaging themselves (as if: "Every piece of tech is 20% better, so Clan mech is 20 % better). Actually, they add up exponentialy*, making them 2-3 times more effective.

*Every saved (in comparison to IS mech) ton & slot makes it possible to optimally allocate some other piece of tech (Weapon, HS, Engine), which also, being more cost effective, make possibile to allocate even more assets to [weapons, HS, Engine]. And that, in turn...

And now try to translate this into FPS computer game like MWO(which, unless you're trolling with this, you don't actually play) where every little advantage (weapon, HS, engine rate, rate of fire etc.) counts

Edited by ssm, 10 December 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

2 tons? thats all you got is 2 tons. crit is a 2 differnce also. so 20% i have to agree with you. as for allocating weapons, you are possibly gonna get away with shoving more ammo into your mech or more amor but these are not critical differences. Do you guys know what a critical differnce is?. I have 5 crital slots left on my Jarger who i fitted with an AC/20 2mchn guns, 3 ER lasers now lets say i had a Jeager with the same layout but they were clan tech. how would the difference affect my performence? (

[Squatchy1390]

Clan vs. IS.

-Same tonnage same armor values. Simple as that.

-Make clan weapon systems more fragile. You think crits to your weapons are annoying now. If you choose to play clan, you choose to have much more fragile weapon systems. Meaning exposed structure with weapons, means much higher chance they'll stop working when damaged.

-Clan should have a flare of DIFFERENT weapons, not grossly overpowered weapons. Maybe their ML has a .15-.25 shorter duration. Same with MPL. You will get more dps out of them over long periods, but you will also overheat faster. It's still 5 damage though. Just applied faster. Missiles could have a stronger track or faster A--->B flight time. Maybe the option to adjust launch path to clear obstacles easier. Missiles would need some serious work though.. can't think of a way to make them much better without overpowering them grossly so I'll leave that one to PGI. AC's maybe just 1-2 less critical slots, 1-3 less tonnage, and maybe some more ammo.

- As for chassis', maybe they could do something like a branch of either faster, or more flexible/ maneuverable. Pilots choice.

Still make the games fewer clanners when facing off against IS players just to stick with cannon, but adjust it according to the first few months of that in place. Say 3 weeks of clanners constantly being crush, add 2 more to the field.

I'll leave the mission balancing to PGI, but those are still ideas to make clan tech "better" but not game changing better. It should only be better if the pilot is aware of how the game works and can exploit the advantages. Not just given blatant easy to use advantages.

The gist of this is to say, CHANGE THE LORE A LITTLE. It's okay to modify things a little from what they were. If no one went from vacuum tubes to transistors, we'd still be playing around on computers the size of living rooms. Embrace the change and let this generation have their own idea of what the glory of battle tech IS! Not WAS.

[elsie]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

I need i dont know what you are talking about

Simple, use TT to approximate what's going to happen if unmodified (non-nerfed) clan mechs get into the game and go up against IS mechs, even highly modified MWO mech builds. Take your favorite 'other' balancing method and apply it as a game rule, get a big-***** sack of 6 sided die and see how many times you have to run it before the randomness of the dice give the IS side a win.

Then imagine yourself on the IS side and think if you'd like to play MWO if those were the results. I'm guessing you wouldn't like it.


elsie

[BLOOD WOLF]

Use the tablet top. nice suggestion there buddy but i cant roll a dice in MWO. the only thing in common is factorabilty of events happening but thats as far as it goes.

Clan vs innersphere, well no one has shown me critcal differnces. tonnage, critical slots, heat. Im not looking in differnces of 2 but i cant ignore the fact. however there not game breaking. Just becuase something is better doesnt mean it cant be beaten

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

nice but no. im also gonna need some statistics on how far the star leage was able to enhance the tech. The comparisons i took are found in Saria.net, which are the same statistics found in actually game. it took a while for me to compare each ingame weapon with that of the site and im not sure what is the actual ratings. However if that is the case then clans weapons are not all that stronger

Star league was never enhanced, it was the bench mark that was used to show how far into the tech dark ages the IS had slipped, as the 'great' houses nuked everything flat until they realised that they were going to lose the ability to control what they had and made rules of conduct, in war, which then garantees that none will ever win. Star league was the best there was, and should ever have been however..

Battletech creators came up with an even more implusable back story for making over kill mechs to sell more units and ruined the balance.

the lost tech happend because of the war, the clans never had any infrastructure to nuke and suddenly after a few generations manage to make weapons that are better than star league, on planets that had..no..intrastructure, not only that they split to make the clans which was even less likely than there tech increasing and being able to colonise new worlds than if they has stayed a united force, colonisation only happens if you have assistance from the old worlds, or you canabalise, what you arrived in and hope you can generate new things before the old is all worn out.

the clans back story was the most idiotic poorly thought out idea I ever read about, it even makes the rehash of battle star galatica look good..robots in red gowns with nice soft bits or even star fronteers by TSR..and that took some beating..to be worse than that..

I am seriously glad pgi are watering down the clans to sensible levels, though if I'm totally honest I doubt the clans will develope very far because if cw isn't out soon..then there isn't going to be many left to play it...

Edited by Cathy, 10 December 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[ssm]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

2 tons? thats all you got is 2 tons. crit is a 2 differnce also. so 20% i have to agree with you. as for allocating weapons, you are possibly gonna get away with shoving more ammo into your mech or more amor but these are not critical differences. Do you guys know what a critical differnce is?. I have 5 crital slots left on my Jarger who i fitted with an AC/20 2mchn guns, 3 ER lasers now lets say i had a Jeager with the same layout but they were clan tech. how would the difference affect my performence? (

I actually booted up SSW and made hipotetical "Clan Jaeger"

Results:

1) 2x C UAC/20 - 40 damage pinpoint/2 sec (assuming) + 5 ton of ammo (80-90 rounds?)
2) 2x ER ML laser (practically Is LL, 7 damage, 1 ton, roughly same range)
3) 12 DHS
3) 89 kph after speed tweak (325 XL)
4) Clan XL engine - If your jager loses side torso, it's dead (unless it uses standard - then it's slow and dead regardless), mine can lose it (and half of weapons) and still run around with more raw firepower than yours in pristine condition.
5) Clan End & Ferro, 14 crits altogether
6) 11 free crits left

Summary:

Half of my Jaeger is faster, more durable, carries more ammo and is way cooler than yours. AC wise, It can deal 80 pts. of pinpoint damage in time it takes yours to do 1/4 of that.

Edited by ssm, 10 December 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Cathy, on 10 December 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Star league was never enhanced, it was the bench mark that was used to show how far into the tech dark ages the IS had slipped, as the 'great' houses nuked everything flat until they realised that they were going to lose the ability to control what they had and made rules of conduct, in war, which then garantees that none will ever win. Star league was the best there was, and should ever have been however..

Battletech creators came up with an even more implusable back story for making over kill mechs to sell more units and ruined the balance.

the lost tech happend because of the war, the clans never had any infrastructure to nuke and suddenly after a few generations manage to make weapons that are better than star league, on planets that had..no..intrastructure, not only that they split to make the clans which was even less likely than there tech increasing and being able to colonise new worlds than if they has stayed a united force, colonisation only happens if you have assistance from the old worlds, or you canabalise, what you arrived in and hope you can generate new things before the old is all worn out.

the clans back story was the most idiotic poorly thought out idea I ever read about, it even makes the rehash of battle star galatica look good..robots in red gowns with nice soft bits or even star fronteers by TSR..and that took some beating..to be worse than that..

I am seriously glad pgi are watering down the clans to sensible levels, though if I'm totally honest I doubt the clans will develope very far because if cw isn't out soon..then there isn't going to be many left to play it...

I dont want to say that was stupid but seriously?

ssm, on 10 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

I actually booted up SSW and made hipotetical "Clan Jaeger"

Results:

1) 2x C UAC/20 - 40 damage pinpoint/2 sec (assuming) + 5 ton of ammo (80-90 rounds?)
2) 2x ER ML laser (practically Is LL, 7 damage, 1 ton, roughly same range)
3) 12 DHS
3) 89 kph after speed tweak (325 XL)
4) Clan XL engine - If your jager loses side torso, it's dead (unless it uses standard - then it's low and dead regardless), mine can lose it (and half of weapons) and still run around with more raw firepower than yours.

whats ssw?

[BLOOD WOLF]

glad that u actually used mine, when we cant really go at it in MWO. im sure the table top is all knowing

[Loc Nar]

Why nerf clantech for MWO? Because using Battle Value would make too much sense as a system and we can't let logical solutions spoil this Kaufka novel.

[ssm]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I dont want to say that was stupid but seriously?

whats ssw?

Solaris Skunk Werks, roughly - application used to make BT mechs.

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

glad that u actually used mine, when we cant really go at it in MWO. im sure the table top is all knowing

In TT, your mech actually could stand a chance agains mine, because fortune might smile on you through several favorable dice rolls. In MWO, though, if we assume similar skills of pilot, it just wouldn't.

Look at the stats.

Edited by ssm, 10 December 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Online isnt dice rolls, i like the two but you cant compare becuase the dice change the varibales to much. Like i stated before side by side comparison there are not much diff.

better yet i like how you brougt the T.T to my attentions. Dice rolls are a critical difference. not a factore of 2 or 1 in addition or subtration

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

SSM but you are not giving me anything solid here.
i think =

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[ssm]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Online isnt dice rolls, i like the two but you cant compare becuase the dice change the varibales to much. Like i stated before side by side comparison there are not much diff.

I've shown you how it looks side by side. If you think something like this:

1) 2x C UAC/20 - 40 damage pinpoint/2 sec (assuming) + 5 ton of ammo (80-90 rounds?)
2) 2x ER ML laser (practically Is LL, 7 damage, 1 ton, roughly same range)
3) 12 DHS
3) 89 kph after speed tweak (325 XL)
4) Clan XL engine - If your jager loses side torso, it's dead (unless it uses standard - then it's slow and dead regardless), mine can lose it (and half of weapons) and still run around with more raw firepower than yours in pristine condition.
5) Clan End & Ferro, 14 crits altogether
6) 11 free crits left

is "not much diff" than your Jager buld (or any Jager build possible to do in MWO), then well, unless you have actual math (ar anything worth more than platitudes like "anything can be beaten") to back up your "not much diff", I'm out.

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

SSM but you are not giving me anything solid here.

Ehhhh... Look Above - Jager made using Clan tech has between 200% - 400% pinpoint damage of yours IS Jager (lower percentage in case you decide to put second AC/20 on it)

200% - 400%.

On top of beign faster, cooler, twice as durable and carrying twice as much ammo.

It's pretty solid, by my standards.

Edited by ssm, 10 December 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

.......................................................

[BLOOD WOLF]

ammo is less than that for UAC/20 dude. why would u think 80-90?. i can make the same thing. I doubt you would be able to win

LOL, 80-90 wow, just wow

[ssm]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

ammo is less than that for UAC/20 dude. why would u think 80-90?. i can make the same thing. I doubt you would be able to win

LOL, 80-90 wow, just wow

You're right, I (same as you, it seems) didn't verify it enough.

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

(...)
AC20 vs CUAC20 : Clan doubles the fire rate, increase the range, 12 shots per ton instead of 5, weighs 12 tons instead of 14, and uses 8 crit slots instead of 10. Same damage, same heat per shot. that isnt a game changer, use ur noggin. the rate of fire is the only thing that gives it an ege.
(...)

But the rest still stands - do you have anything more concrete, in terms of whether Clantech is "little diff" than current Is tech than "lol", "wow" "I doubt you wiould be able to win"?

Edited by ssm, 10 December 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Guido]

ssm, on 10 December 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I've shown you how it looks side by side. If you think something like this:

1) 2x C UAC/20 - 40 damage pinpoint/2 sec (assuming) + 5 ton of ammo (80-90 rounds?)
2) 2x ER ML laser (practically Is LL, 7 damage, 1 ton, roughly same range)
3) 12 DHS
3) 89 kph after speed tweak (325 XL)
4) Clan XL engine - If your jager loses side torso, it's dead (unless it uses standard - then it's slow and dead regardless), mine can lose it (and half of weapons) and still run around with more raw firepower than yours in pristine condition.
5) Clan End & Ferro, 14 crits altogether
6) 11 free crits left

is "not much diff" than your Jager buld (or any Jager build possible to do in MWO), then well, unless you have actual math (ar anything worth more than platitudes like "anything can be beaten") to back up your "not much diff", I'm out.



Ehhhh... Look Above - Jager made using Clan tech has between 200% - 400% pinpoint damage of yours IS Jager (lower percentage in case you decide to put second AC/20 on it)

200% - 400%.

On top of beign faster, cooler, twice as durable and carrying twice as much ammo.

It's pretty solid, by my standards.

You used the wrong mech build for this. I would use the JM6-S instead of the JM6-A, drop a ton of ammo and replace that with two more CERMLs, and swap that 325 for a 315. That would put you at:

2 UAC20s that can double tap 80 points into your chest
4 CERMLs which apply as 4 large lasers essentially with less heat
12 DHS
Clan XL 315 (86.5kph after speed tweak) that can lose a side torso
4 tons of ammo (16 rounds per ton = 28 rounds)
Clan Endo and Ferro
8 free slots left.

That would give you pretty much a one-shot against any mech at ranges up to 320 meters (80 damage with the UAC20s + 28 with the CERMLs = 108 pinpoint damage, which is the max armor an atlas can equip in the center torso), and 28 damage against targets out to 500 meters (which is pretty much PPC range as well). An alpha would overheat you by 6 points, which isn't enough to even damage you before you start to cool down.

Edited by Guido, 10 December 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

yes sarna says five whilein game its 7

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 December 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[Guido]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

yes sarna says five whilein game its 7

Yeah sorry, you're right about that. I read it wrong.

Edit: There, fixed it.

Edited by Guido, 10 December 2013 - 05:21 PM.