625 replies to this topic

[Endarius]

We have essentially no info whatsoever about clan tech. Why are you already whining about supposed "nerfs," for which we have zero quantifiable info. The devs basically stated that the starting balance point for clan tech would be the mwo inner sphere tech, not tabletop values. Why the f*** is that a problem? Its the only reasonable approach. This thread has no purpose as far as i can tell other than stirring up discontent amongst greedy clan fanboys who figure everyone should get a bloodname , rp a cluster command, and have get a fully loaded Daishi just for signing up.

[Corwin Vickers]

I played the Battletech 3056 MUSE for years and Inner Sphere had no shortage of players.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Endarius, on 10 December 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

We have essentially no info whatsoever about clan tech. Why are you already whining about supposed "nerfs," for which we have zero quantifiable info. The devs basically stated that the starting balance point for clan tech would be the mwo inner sphere tech, not tabletop values. Why the f*** is that a problem? Its the only reasonable approach. This thread has no purpose as far as i can tell other than stirring up discontent amongst greedy clan fanboys who figure everyone should get a bloodname , rp a cluster command, and have get a fully loaded Daishi just for signing up.

Project Update - Dec 2/2013

Quote

Clans:
Design has started to focus on Clan Tech. It is at this time that we must stress once again that we will not be bringing Clan Tech into the game as it was originally written. Game balance is going to take precedence over any values/behaviors found previously in other MechWarrior/BattleTech titles. Yes, there will be growing pains but we will make sure that Clan Tech does have a unique flavor when compared to InnerSphere Tech but not to the extent of everything just being over powered out of the gate.

and which do you suppose is going to be PGI's developement choice and which is the right choice?

creating new systems to put a leash on earnings and thus encouraging particular behavior on the field to mimic "zellbrigen"

making chassis and hitboxes bigger than IS counterparts and have them out numbered which means clan players need tactics and death blobs of focus fire show their effect more than ever which clan tech can't save them from. so claners need stratagy to survive "IS Zombie apocolypse"

cutting all pilot tree perks instead investing in "honour" points to simulate the higher ranking and permission to pilot better mechs system

all of which would add new flavours to not just the mechs but the gameing experience which i thought is what game devs were all about.

or

new ghost heat and terrible weapon values that are 10-30% less effcient/effective to what is really exsisting IS mechanics. no other changes so most involvment a player has after clans is level simillar **** up like IS and yay you've done everything the game has to offer.

sounds like PGI are going with the latter easy route. the nerf everything to mediocrity route. for sure this is speculation and we have little info but that statement compared along side the 2013 balancing decisions doesn't look good for expanding the gaming experience around here.


so if you think it's reasonable to sqaunder this oppotunity to make the game something more than a rockem sockem robots arena then enjoy the mediocrity falling over because already players are bored with this game's lack of offerings, they've done everything, left and are waiting for CW to come back and play if at all.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 December 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[ssm]

GalaxyBluestar, on 10 December 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

and which do you suppose is going to be PGI's developement choice and which is the right choice?

creating new systems to put a leash on earnings and thus encouraging particular behavior on the field to mimic "zellbrigen"

making chassis and hitboxes bigger than IS counterparts and have them out numbered which means clan players need tactics and death blobs of focus fire show their effect more than ever which clan tech can't save them from. so claners need stratagy to survive "IS Zombie apocolypse"

cutting all pilot tree perks instead investing in "honour" points to simulate the higher ranking and permission to pilot better mechs system

all of which would add new flavours to not just the mechs but the gameing experience which i thought is what game devs were all about.

or

new ghost heat and terrible weapon values that are 10-30% less effcient/effective to what is really exsisting IS mechanics. no other changes so most involvment a player has after clans is level simillar **** up like IS and yay you've done everything the game has to offer.

sounds like PGI are going with the latter easy route. the nerf everything to mediocrity route. for sure this is speculation and we have little info but that statement compared along side the 2013 balancing decisions doesn't look good for expanding the gaming experience around here.


so if you think it's reasonable to sqaunder this oppotunity to make the game something more than a rockem sockem robots arena then enjoy the mediocrity falling over because already players are bored with this game's lack of offerings, they've done everything, left and are waiting for CW to come back and play if at all.

I'm pretty sure I already went through your ideas, but well, lets recap:

1) Creating new system to put an leash on rewards/enforce Zellbringen - useless,.

Too many people don't care about rewards at all, or settle on mech/mechs they already have - see R & R fisco.
You could reinforce Zellbringen in game by, for example, shutting down non-compliant pilot for few seconds. But it will seriously screw not only relation to lore, but also dynamic of gameplay.

Either way - not worth it.


2) Making chassis and hitboxes bigger than IS counterparts - useless

See Shadow Hawk - it's oversized, but because it has some good things going for it, it's still very good mech. Clan Mechs would have everything going good for them, so to make actual worthwhile balance result, they would have to bloat the models extremely - to the point of clan mechs looking downright silly.

Mech design is one of the MWO strongest points (some argue that it's only one), they can't squander that.


3) Number of mechs per deployment, pilot trees - workable, but simply not enough.


Addendum:

- You accusation of PGI taking "easy route" is unfair - because they took the hardest one. By making MWO mechs almost fully TT-transferable they seriously restricted their options of balancing the game, but at the same time - MWO mech design is as closest to lore as possible without IT being unviable as computer game.

"Easy route" games:

1) MW: LL - no customisation, no problems.

2) MW4 - as far as mech/weapon design and gameplay is concerned, they didn't care a lot about either lore or TT. They just went easy route of mixtech and thus made all IS tech obsolete.

3) MW1-3 - they weren't designed for multiplayer, so balance wasn't a factor in their design. At all.


- Your assumption of planned Clan tech being "10-30% less effcient/effective to what is really exsisting IS mechanics" is at best just completely baseless. My bet is they'll tweak with things like fire rates, damage etc. to make them only slightly more effective than IS counterparts, and then, on top of it - introduce nerfs in other areas (pilot skills, drop numbers, etc.)

Edited by ssm, 11 December 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[CMetz]

For the record- A Timberwolf Prime build (built in smurfy using a Stalker since it could support the heat bearing weapons loadout) would have a heat efficiency of 25% using comparable IS weapons (med pulses for both ER medium lasers and med pulse lasers and IS ERLL for clan ERLL). Yes, heat will be SLIGHTLY different for clan models, but it will be in the same neighborhood. Bottom line- the Timberwolf Prime would NOT be a truly viable build for the game as it stands, due to heat issues.

[ssm]

CMetz, on 11 December 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

For the record- A Timberwolf Prime build (built in smurfy using a Stalker since it could support the heat bearing weapons loadout) would have a heat efficiency of 25% using comparable IS weapons (med pulses for both ER medium lasers and med pulse lasers and IS ERLL for clan ERLL). Yes, heat will be SLIGHTLY different for clan models, but it will be in the same neighborhood. Bottom line- the Timberwolf Prime would NOT be a truly viable build for the game as it stands, due to heat issues.

Still twice as powerful as most (if not all) stock IS mechs.

Edited by ssm, 11 December 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[CMetz]

Yes but the point is that with our current double heat sink cooling ratio (2 for internals, 1.4 for crit mounted) Clan weapons will run FAR too hot to be as effective as they are in TT. The Timberwolf Prime simply could not shell out as much DPS as its IS counterparts.

[ssm]

CMetz, on 11 December 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Yes but the point is that with our current double heat sink cooling ratio (2 for internals, 1.4 for crit mounted) Clan weapons will run FAR too hot to be as effective as they are in TT. The Timberwolf Prime simply could not shell out as much DPS as its IS counterparts.

You'll just be able to cram more DHS.

- less crits
- weight saved on less bulkier endo & ferro, lighter and less bulky weapons & equipment and risk-free Xl engines.

If anything, I'm sure they'll be able to shell way more DPS - comparable heat (see above - more DHS) on top of increased damage.

Edited by ssm, 11 December 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[Koniving]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Whoever in here thinks they are running with the builds like in mech warrior 2 are gonna be shutting down so fast

Fun fact.
MW2 in most iterations of it (except the very original before expansions / PSX version) had a threshold of 40. The threshold of a MWO stock mech with 10 standard heatsinks. An 11 SHS mech has 41 threshold, which is 1 heat more in an alpha strike than MW2 could handle.

The average 10 DHS mech in MWO has 50 as a threshold with no unlocks, after unlocks it is 60. The average actual build exceeds 75 threshold. My 2 ER PPC Victor has 88.56 threshold. That's the ability to fire 8 PPCs at once and still keep moving at full speed on Terra Therma.

Think about that. Think long. Think hard. The only reason so much could be fired is that the laser heat and laser damage was reduced by half into DPS-style weapons and UACs were machine guns. A UAC/20 fired 20 bullets per trigger pull. With regular armor instead of double armor, more DPS-style weaponry made the mechs last quite a while.

Have a heat simulator. Watch the thresholds as you attach on heatsinks and pilot skills.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

[Joseph Mallan]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Clans will be nerfed. Get used to it.

3pv is not hard to implement, its a spring and a camera, anyone could do it and it takes about 10 minutes to code it. Less if cryengine had the functionality already (and it probably does).

I will be sorely disappointed if The Boogieman is defanged. I am here to see how hard it would be to rewrite history for the invasion. To o that I want the Clans as tough as they have been or decades. To beat them is what I came for. If I wanna face an enemy that is equal to me, I will fight Dracs!

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

I will be sorely disappointed if The Boogieman is defanged. I am here to see how hard it would be to rewrite history for the invasion. To o that I want the Clans as tough as they have been or decades. To beat them is what I came for. If I wanna face an enemy that is equal to me, I will fight Dracs!

Isn't a heavy Mech that move like a medium and hit like an Assault enough for ya?
(Stalker - example of above because of the weapons - with a 375XL ....look the turn and twist rates of a CTF with a 340 only)

Do you really want mediums that move like lights and hit like assaults?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 December 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[ssm]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

I will be sorely disappointed if The Boogieman is defanged. I am here to see how hard it would be to rewrite history for the invasion. To o that I want the Clans as tough as they have been or decades. To beat them is what I came for. If I wanna face an enemy that is equal to me, I will fight Dracs!

Sadly, winning-against-all-odds stories transfer badly into pvp enviroment.

Edited by ssm, 11 December 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 11 December 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Isn't a heavy Mech that move like a medium and hit like an Assault enough for ya?
(Stalker - example of above because of the weapons - with a 375XL ....look the turn and twist rates of a CTF with a 340 only)

Do you really want mediums that move like lights and hit like assaults?

Yes.
Is that a problem?

ssm, on 11 December 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Sadly, winning-against-all-odds stories transfer badly into pvp enviroment.

Sadly, players don't have fortitude any more.

I know a guy who has played Axis and Allies for 20+ years as the Germans. He says he is still trying to win one!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 December 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[KinLuu]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

I will be sorely disappointed if The Boogieman is defanged. I am here to see how hard it would be to rewrite history for the invasion. To o that I want the Clans as tough as they have been or decades. To beat them is what I came for. If I wanna face an enemy that is equal to me, I will fight Dracs!

Well, I do not.

I want a balanced game.

And I am happy PGI agrees with my POV. For now. It is their position at this time.

[C E Dwyer]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I dont want to say that was stupid but seriously?


whats ssw?

lets just say the clans concept as anything but a business model, is as ******** as my gramar

[Endarius]

GalaxyBluestar, on 10 December 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Project Update - Dec 2/2013




and which do you suppose is going to be PGI's developement choice and which is the right choice?

creating new systems to put a leash on earnings and thus encouraging particular behavior on the field to mimic "zellbrigen"

making chassis and hitboxes bigger than IS counterparts and have them out numbered which means clan players need tactics and death blobs of focus fire show their effect more than ever which clan tech can't save them from. so claners need stratagy to survive "IS Zombie apocolypse"

cutting all pilot tree perks instead investing in "honour" points to simulate the higher ranking and permission to pilot better mechs system

all of which would add new flavours to not just the mechs but the gameing experience which i thought is what game devs were all about.

or

new ghost heat and terrible weapon values that are 10-30% less effcient/effective to what is really exsisting IS mechanics. no other changes so most involvment a player has after clans is level simillar **** up like IS and yay you've done everything the game has to offer.

sounds like PGI are going with the latter easy route. the nerf everything to mediocrity route. for sure this is speculation and we have little info but that statement compared along side the 2013 balancing decisions doesn't look good for expanding the gaming experience around here.


so if you think it's reasonable to sqaunder this oppotunity to make the game something more than a rockem sockem robots arena then enjoy the mediocrity falling over because already players are bored with this game's lack of offerings, they've done everything, left and are waiting for CW to come back and play if at all.

You just added a slew of suppositions to one very short, very ambiguous paragraph. Congratulations. It doesn't change the fact that we have seen no statistics whatsoever. Instead of ranting and raving about something you know nothing about, that NOONE outside of PGI knows anything about, why not wait at least until you see something on the test server or some screenshots. You know, evidence? Also, better yet, you are clearly playing this game, do you do so because it's fun? I bet that's why. Why not see if the game REMAINS fun after the introduction of clan tech. If you decide it isn't at that point, then that is your prerogative. You can then fund your own independent software company and make whatever you like.

[Joseph Mallan]

KinLuu, on 11 December 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Well, I do not.

I want a balanced game.

And I am happy PGI agrees with my POV. For now. It is their position at this time.

Where is the fun fighting an enemy no better than you are?

[Thorn Hallis]

GalaxyBluestar, on 10 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

for the look of a timberwolf!? yeah that will keep the game afloat.

Yes, I think it will.

[ssm]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Where is the fun fighting an enemy no better than you are?

No problem there, if you want to feel true clantech OPness just run against PGI-adjusted clanners in stock IS mechs.

No DHS, no upgrades - you'll feel just like in lore, you can start practicing even now.

Edited by ssm, 11 December 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[elsie]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 December 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

THE HEAT!!!!. ER Clan PPCS generate more hears. so good luck triple mounting them, or double. Please think before u type. Clan weapons generate more heat and we as far i know I cant get away with cont. fire with 3 IS ER ppcs in a thick fight In truth its the pilot not the tech. I have a sneaking suspician that the people that are against clan tech are players who spent months working on specific win, win builds. Could be untrue Also the Guass rifle is a bad example for The IS and clan are really similar

I don't see where clan weapons are supposedly hotter than IS, unless you are referring to previous versions of computer Mechwarrior that followed BattleTech about as closely as Verhoven followed the Starship Troopers book.

Sarna has clan and IS ER PPCs at the same heat (15) and range, but clan has 50% more damage and one less ton and crit slot. But that's just one weapon. Going down the list of weapons on sarna.net it looks like clan and IS weapons have the same heat, but the clans have various combinations of more range or more damage and usually lighter and fewer crit slots. And given the MWO player proclivity of stacking as much of the biggest alpha they can find, that increases the disparity between damage potential. IE. clan weapons are OP. They were when they were introduced 23 years ago and continued to be a disruptive influence on any attempt to play in the Battletech universe. Unless you threw out all pretense of a backstory and wanted to play "pew pew" with the BFG.

Daishi vs Altas (or two, maybe even three): I'm thinking the Big D wins most of the time.


elsie